Kris Posted April 12, 2014 Posted April 12, 2014 Hello all, recently I ran across an apoligetic article that got into various phenomenon in the Jewish temple prior to its destruction (and after the alleged crucifixion). The article is called "Was Something Awry In The Temple". It talks about a bunch of stuff--- but I wanted to find out if anyone has more information on the Lives of the Prophets. In the article, it mentioned that this book had information from Habbukuk, prophesying on the temple destruction. The language seemed similar to Josephus--- but it does talk about the veil being rent--- not by Jesus crucifixion-- but by invading Roman armies. There is dupute over this book--- some think it was written in the early first century by a jew--- and that there were later interpolations. Has anybody heard of this? Could this have been legitimate at the time and incorporated into the Christian tales? I am going to try and link a copy of both the original article and the book for reference. Please help me debunk!
Kris Posted April 12, 2014 Author Posted April 12, 2014 Here is a link: http://www.summascriptura.com/html/Lives_of_the_Prophets_Torrey.html
Kris Posted April 13, 2014 Author Posted April 13, 2014 Welll, I guess I will take stab at my own question-- just to see if I can help myself. I think that this work may have originally started out Jewish--- but interpolations were likely put in. Take Jeremiah. The information there clearly smacks of Christian interjection. As far as the Habbukuk info--- this could have been written prior to the temple being destroyed. I don't think it would take a rocket scientist to assume that Rome would eventually destroy Jerusalem and the temple even in early first century ad. Or it was written shortly thereafter to try to show that one of the prophets knew that this would happen. Josephus may have been familiar with this work and used some of this in his stories or both heard the stories and put them in their works. The talk of the veil rending in this work seems to be directly related to the Romans. It doesn't seem to relate to when Jesus was crucified. So, even though it is talking about something similar, I don't think it validates the gospels in any way. In fact, it seems to even possibly repudiate them by seeming to indicate that the temple was still going to be in place just prior to the temple destruction and wasn't rent away prior by Jesus dying. Doesn't do much good to rend something if it is going to be immdiately replaced! I really think this whole passage may have been placed in the book later however. In the end, the apologists will interpret this information the way they will and I will interpret it in a way that makes sense to me. The originals are not available so we can only go off later manuscripts anyway.
♦ ficino ♦ Posted April 13, 2014 Posted April 13, 2014 Hi Kris, a while ago I perused this article: "Evocatio Deorum and the Date of Mark," by John S. Kloppenborg, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 124, No. 3 (Fall, 2005), pp. 419-450. Sorry I can't link it because I got it via JSTOR. Kloppenborg talks about the Roman custom, when they were about to assault a city, of "evocatio deorum." That means, "calling/summoning out the gods." They would invite the gods of the enemy city to leave that city and side with them. Of course, if they conquered the city, they'd see this as confirmation that the enemies' gods had abandoned that enemy. K. says that the Romans under Titus did this when they made their final assault on the Temple mount. He thinks the detail of the tearing of the veil is put in by Mark to symbolize that God had abandoned the Jews (to side with the Christians). So he dates Mark after 70. K also points out that when Jesus is baptized in Mark, the heavens are "torn asunder." The veil in the temple was decorated with images of the heavens. So K. thinks Mark is subtly foreshadowing in the baptism scened the eventual replacement of the temple-centered cult, which God abandons through the torn veil, by the Jesus cult. Sorry, I don't know anything about The Lives of the Prophets, though!
Kris Posted April 13, 2014 Author Posted April 13, 2014 That is an interesting article-- thanks for sharing the authors take on things!
Gamecock1973 Posted April 13, 2014 Posted April 13, 2014 There is no historical verification of the temple veil being torn in two when Jesus died. None. If one does a bit of study at the size of this curtain, you would see how ridiculous it would be for not ONE person to mention it outside of the single gospel reference (the reference that goes hand in hand with the dead of Jerusalem suddenly coming out of their graves and wandering around the city). It is clearly fiction, written by later Pauline Christians who wanted to put a nice symbolic spin on the death of the Christ and the death of the Law.
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