Guest afireinside Posted April 12, 2014 Posted April 12, 2014 I work with a 21 year old, we started at the same time in 2010. He was at the time a 17 year old who was a bit wayward but had come from a dysfunctional home, him and his 3 sisters had been in and out of foster care most of their lives. They were then back at their mothers who was suffering from serious mental illness-she would just sit on the end of her bed and smoke and only leave the house to get more cigarettes. I instantly had a compassion for this guy, our backgrounds were similar, we both had rough upbringings and similar interests so over the course of 4 years I have grown to like him a lot and I think he sees me as a bit of a mentor. On Friday I discovered family friends of ours were having trouble with their 15yo son, he has bipolar and has been struggling in some areas. Turns out when he was 11 he was asked by a boy who lived around the corner if he could help him with something at home. The boy went to the house where the older boy took him into his bedroom and closed the door, pulled out a knife and held it to his throat and had his way with him-shocking! What is even more shocking is that it turns out it was my workmate. Apparently according to family friends he should have gone to jail as a 17yo but social services presented evidence that he himself had been sexually assaulted as a child and his behaviour was due to the abuse he had suffered. He consequently was discharged without conviction and has been working with me since then. None of this I was aware of only that he had some "issues" but assumed it was to do with his mums mental health, she committed suicide eventually last year. The sad and worrying thing is that he now has a beautiful partner who had helped him get his shit together and they now have a 1yo child and planning for a second. I do not believe he has told her the truth about his past, I think she would leave him if she knew as she is quite straight up. Now I know what he's done I find it hard to look at him the same, he is my friend and I care about him but I'd like to punch him out because I know the pain he's caused to the boy and his family. I also worry for his child that she may be at risk but don't know what do or say or to just stay out of it. I don't like broadcasting my problems but would be interested to know if anyone's been in this situation and what did you do.
milesaway Posted April 13, 2014 Posted April 13, 2014 Any record on him as a juvenile would be sealed by now, so there wouldn't be much you can do. I would probably keep an eye on him and be on the lookout for anything fishy going on, and when that happens, you can anonymously report him to DHS. I highly doubt that 15 year old is the first kid he's done this to, especially if he was that violent with him. It wouldn't surprise me if he hasn't been real forthcoming about his past with her. If he has, then she's basically playing Russian Roulette. For me, that would be a HUGE red flag and an automatic deal breaker, I wouldn't trust him around my kids, and there's no way I'd take that risk with them.
Guest ninurta Posted April 13, 2014 Posted April 13, 2014 Maybe, hopefully, he has turned it around since then. It's possible. You never know until you actually know. They say Ted Bundy was a very caring, charming fellow before he went on his rampage.
FreeThinkerNZ Posted April 13, 2014 Posted April 13, 2014 You can always call Child, Youth and Family Services and tell them what you have heard and then its their responsibility to deal with it under the law. Be careful if you decide to tell his partner - she may be at risk of violence if she confronts him or takes any action eg leaving, without first planning for her safety and that of her child. Eg if she wants to leave she should involve Women's Refuge. On the other hand, it is possible that she already knows and she has been persuaded by him to 'give him a second chance' - I have seen women do that. Crazy, dangerous thing to do, that is. Fortunately he is unlikely to sexually assault a baby, so the little one is not as at much risk as she would be over about age 3 or so. I believe this woman has a right to know the truth, she is responsible for the safety of her child. But I think it is better to leave it to the professionals. You may not have all the information they have. Does your work involve any contact with children or other vulnerable people? If so, then you may need to tell your boss - also a tricky area, you could be disciplined for making a false allegation. Knowledge like this is huge burden to have.
Guest afireinside Posted April 13, 2014 Posted April 13, 2014 Thanks Milesaway/ninurta. I try to visualise what could happen if I speak up, if I stay quiet and hope for the best, if I approach him alone, his partner alone....there's dangers either way. I would just keep a close eye on him but I have taken a new job and won't have the same contact with him from next month on. I'm most worried for his child, though he genuinely seems to love and cherish her which I suppose is a positive. I'm also worried that if I say anything it may destroy his relationship and his life and lead to other serious issues.
Guest afireinside Posted April 13, 2014 Posted April 13, 2014 FreethinkerNZ I have thought about calling CYFS anonymously and it's probably the safest thing to do. I have a suspicion my boss may know as he employed him at a time he says he was going through a "tough period". I was tempted to ask him on Friday but decided I'd think about it over the weekend.
milesaway Posted April 13, 2014 Posted April 13, 2014 He probably doesn't know the specifics, unless this kid's really candid, which I can't imagine he is if he's got a girlfriend who has any shred of common sense and kids with her. He's probably got her so snowed. And since you've got a new job lined up, I'd say it's all the more reason to call DHS anonymously and tell them what you know. If he's got the history of it, then why take the chance that he's changed with his own kids? Leopards don't change their spots.
RipVanWinkle Posted April 13, 2014 Posted April 13, 2014 I'm not sure I have all the facts straight, but it sounds like DHS already knows of his past and didn't think he was a risk or they could have taken other action. I'm not saying that they were right to let him go unsupervised, only that that is what they did. But since that is the case I don't see what you could report to DHS. So far as you know he's done nothing wrong with respect to his child or other children, so you have nothing to report except what DHS had already dealt with. Despite his past which got him in to trouble as a minor, he was too young (I believe) to be considered a pedophile. Teenagers sex hormones do crazy things with some kids. But it doesn't mean they are lifelong perverts. There are good reasons why juvenile court files are confidential. Your are holding a powerful explosive device in your hands. My felling is to not report anything to his current partner because you have no idea what adverse reactions might be the result. It could destroy what might be a good relationship with his partner which would in all probability affect the relationship with his children. Also, conceivably it could adversely affect your friend who might otherwise be ok. It could destroy his personal growth by causing him to think there is no use trying. I know this is all speculation, but that's all we have. Further, if on the other hand he is violent (which we don't know) he could turn on his partner and you if he were to find out you were the one who spilled the beans on him. I realize the concern about his own children but I honestly don't think you have enough to go on to predict his molesting his children or anyone else's. I repeat, sexual aberrations of teenagers are not necessarily a precursor to perversion. If you know a good psychologists you might want to run it by him or her. But make sure he/she is well respected in this field. A bad one is worse than none at all. bill
Guest afireinside Posted April 13, 2014 Posted April 13, 2014 I really don't think his partner is in any danger, actually I think he is intimidated by her, he's not a threatening person or so I thought. I do want to believe it was just hormones and teenage angst as you say Bill, I have seen him do some dumb shit to animals and I've told him if he ever does anything cruel to his kids I'll come for him. I think the relationship he is in is his best shot at a good life and I don't want to affect that in any way. At the same time I'm angry at the effect it had on the other boy and feel for his family.
FreeThinkerNZ Posted April 13, 2014 Posted April 13, 2014 There is apparently a lot of research evidence linking cruelty to animals with child abuse and violence. If you have a bad gut feeling about this guy, maybe you do need to tell someone. CYF may not know about the cruelty to animals. 1
Guest afireinside Posted April 13, 2014 Posted April 13, 2014 There is apparently a lot of research evidence linking cruelty to animals with child abuse and violence. If you have a bad gut feeling about this guy, maybe you do need to tell someone. CYF may not know about the cruelty to animals. Yeah when I first saw him do it I was a bit stunned because his whole demeanour changed and he was actually zoned out to everything but what he was doing. He also told me a story about a "friend" of his that put a kitten in the microwave and cooked it alive and he thought it was funny. I want to believe that he won't hurt a child, especially of his own and he does seem to love the baby. I just don't know if he has a trigger that changes him like with the animals. Maybe I'm just being paranoid but I keep thinking of possible outcomes. I'd just like to he a fly on the wall in his home
Guest ninurta Posted April 13, 2014 Posted April 13, 2014 He probably doesn't know the specifics, unless this kid's really candid, which I can't imagine he is if he's got a girlfriend who has any shred of common sense and kids with her. He's probably got her so snowed. And since you've got a new job lined up, I'd say it's all the more reason to call DHS anonymously and tell them what you know. If he's got the history of it, then why take the chance that he's changed with his own kids? Leopards don't change their spots. You don't know him, neither do I. We just know that he's got a violent past, which from this, you've extrapolated so much and make it about you. And yes, depending on whether they want to change or not, they can actually change. To say otherwise is to deny someone the chance, which makes recidivism more likely. It's the leading reason mentally healthy people who go in for drug sales, end up back into prison on drug charges, the job that didn't pay much before jail, they can't even get that job now because no one is willing to give them that opportunity.
FreeThinkerNZ Posted April 13, 2014 Posted April 13, 2014 He probably doesn't know the specifics, unless this kid's really candid, which I can't imagine he is if he's got a girlfriend who has any shred of common sense and kids with her. He's probably got her so snowed. And since you've got a new job lined up, I'd say it's all the more reason to call DHS anonymously and tell them what you know. If he's got the history of it, then why take the chance that he's changed with his own kids? Leopards don't change their spots. You don't know him, neither do I. We just know that he's got a violent past, which from this, you've extrapolated so much and make it about you. And yes, depending on whether they want to change or not, they can actually change. To say otherwise is to deny someone the chance, which makes recidivism more likely. It's the leading reason mentally healthy people who go in for drug sales, end up back into prison on drug charges, the job that didn't pay much before jail, they can't even get that job now because no one is willing to give them that opportunity. Raping an 11 year old at the age of 17 (which means you're in adult court in NZ) is worlds away from merely selling drugs. It's clear that the courts did not make this sexual offender accountable for his crime, which lends itself to the proposition that he should not be given an opportunity to reoffend with his own child, and any other children he may come into contact with through being a parent. Violent sexual offending against children should be treated extremely seriously. 2
sparklingphoenix Posted April 14, 2014 Posted April 14, 2014 I don't really have advice, but I do know what it's like growing up in an abusive home (not sexual though). Honestly, if you can find a safe way to let some authorities know, I think you should. It's just my thoughts and I don't really know what's the best route to make sure you don't get in trouble. But my heart goes out to the girl. If I were the girl, I would want to know. From my experience, in really abusive families, history repeats itself. My family's abuse has been going on for generations. If this guy isn't going to get some counseling or professional help, then he likely has not changed and will continue hurting people in the future. He might not hurt their baby now, but when the baby gets older I think it could definitely happen again. I hope the girl can have the chance to avoid having another child with him and be able to get away from him. I just hate to know that something like this could be avoided and innocent kids could have a chance to grow up normally without the crippling baggage of abuse.
milesaway Posted April 14, 2014 Posted April 14, 2014 He probably doesn't know the specifics, unless this kid's really candid, which I can't imagine he is if he's got a girlfriend who has any shred of common sense and kids with her. He's probably got her so snowed. And since you've got a new job lined up, I'd say it's all the more reason to call DHS anonymously and tell them what you know. If he's got the history of it, then why take the chance that he's changed with his own kids? Leopards don't change their spots. You don't know him, neither do I. We just know that he's got a violent past, which from this, you've extrapolated so much and make it about you. And yes, depending on whether they want to change or not, they can actually change. To say otherwise is to deny someone the chance, which makes recidivism more likely. It's the leading reason mentally healthy people who go in for drug sales, end up back into prison on drug charges, the job that didn't pay much before jail, they can't even get that job now because no one is willing to give them that opportunity. As FreeThinkerNZ said, drugs and crimes against children are two totally different animals. Yes, people addicted to drugs can get clean if they've got the initiative and access to the tools they need, and they can live productive lives. They have to be ready to change. And if they've shown that they have made the effort to get themselves on the straight and narrow, and if enough time has passed between now and when drugs were an issue for them, then by all means they can and should have a second chance to redeem themselves. Crimes against children is where I draw the line. The recidivism rate for them is horrifying, and for an adult who should know better to abuse the trust of a child (or someone who can't legally consent otherwise), well, that doesn't deserve a second chance, imo. 17 is the age of consent in some states, but it's technically still a minor. That said, this guy was old enough to know better, and he basically got away with what he did to that 11 year old, who will be paying for this for the rest of his life. Maybe he's learned his lesson, but why risk it?
Guest afireinside Posted April 14, 2014 Posted April 14, 2014 I'd like to believe what happened was a one off and a phase sort of like bullying but I'm scared of the unknown. I know the lady who counselled him but she probably wouldn't tell me anything about him due to confidentiality agreements. I have been thinking about this all day and I am tempted to get him alone and confront him but that may be the wrong thing to do.
milesaway Posted April 14, 2014 Posted April 14, 2014 I would seriously hope that it was a one-time thing, and stranger things have happened, but a sexual assault? That's beyond a bullying phase, imo, since that kid is 6 years younger. That's quite an age difference between them. The lady who counseled him back then probably wouldn't say anything, even if it's been awhile since he last saw her, and that's fair enough. The only way she'd talk about it is if she were legally obligated to do so. I doubt confronting him is gonna solve anything. He might admit it, he might get defensive about it, but either way, who knows how he'd react? It sounds like your best bet is to be careful around him and be on the lookout for anything fishy going on. Then if you've got reason to believe he's up to no good with his kids or someone else's, then you what to do.
Guest afireinside Posted April 14, 2014 Posted April 14, 2014 I think you're right Milesaway. I guess the closer I am to him the better I can observe him. If I say anything to him directly it will just drive a wedge between us. I want to believe he wouldn't be that hideous but I just don't know.
FreeThinkerNZ Posted April 14, 2014 Posted April 14, 2014 Confronting him could cause all kinds of trouble for you, him, the victim, the victim's family, the offender;s family, your employer etc etc. You only have the comments of the victim's family to go on. You don't have access to the facts of the case that the authorities have. It is their responsibility to deal with the offending and risk of reoffending. Legally you are allowed to inform the authorities of anything you like but its not a two way street. They don't have to give you any information. You have no other rights or responsibilities unless you see him hurting an animal, for example. Then you have a responsibility to report him to the Police, and your employer and then back off. You could see a counsellor to discuss your feelings of awkwardness around him and your (understandable) anger as a member of the community. You could talk again with the victim's family, as a friend, and ask them how they are dealing with the ongoing feelings they have and offer support. They might mention what the authorities told them at the time about their legal rights and responsibilities. They might have kept newspaper clippings about the unnamed offender and the charges. It could be useful to know what was reported in the press at the time, it might give some background as to why the case was discharged. I follow cases like this in the news because I am interested in how the justice system deals with them. It's my way of processing the anger I feel. Because we both live in NZ, I have a built up a bit of knowledge over the years of how the system works. Support for victims and their families is pretty poor but they do have certain rights to information (at the time). A discharge without conviction for an offence like this is rare and if thats what happened then there must have been extremely compelling reasons. It would not surprise me if the authorities are monitoring him. I was not surprised to read that the offender's colleague also knows their counsellor and the victim's family. Our communities are usually small and closeknit, which can be a two edged sword. People have less privacy but there is also a de facto monitoring as well. This is why it would not surprise me if the police know he has a young child. So, in summary, I don't think you need to do anything that might make you feel like you're enhancing the safety of his child or partner. However, animal cruelty is a crime so if you see anything that he would not be comfortable with the police knowing about, that is your chance to do some good, for the animals at least.
Guest afireinside Posted April 14, 2014 Posted April 14, 2014 I think what I will do is talk to the victims parents and it's up to them if they want to mention to CYFS about him having a child in his care if they are concerned. The victim is also scared this will get out as he is fearful he will be teased. The last time I had a bad feeling about someone I know I didn't act upon it and the husband shot and killed his wife. I think you'll know the story I mean, they had the neighbouring farm and saw them most days leading up to it and knew something wasn't right but said to myself just stay out of it. In that case the system had failed the family.
FreeThinkerNZ Posted April 14, 2014 Posted April 14, 2014 I think what I will do is talk to the victims parents and it's up to them if they want to mention to CYFS about him having a child in his care if they are concerned. The victim is also scared this will get out as he is fearful he will be teased. The last time I had a bad feeling about someone I know I didn't act upon it and the husband shot and killed his wife. I think you'll know the story I mean, they had the neighbouring farm and saw them most days leading up to it and knew something wasn't right but said to myself just stay out of it. In that case the system had failed the family. I am so sorry to hear that you had that experience regarding that murder. I do remember that case. I always take a special interest in domestic violence murders - usually there is only one person who could have prevented the offender from committing the crime, and that is the victim herself. Having been in violent relationships myself, I know the mental gymnastics a woman does to justify staying with a violent man. Dude, there is nothing you could have done. You were right to stay out of it because intervening could have put her in greater danger anyway, and then how would you have felt? I think its best to talk to the victim's family. They have more credibility with the police than you would have, as someone not connected with the case. And the victim's wishes should always be respected. His parents know best in this situation. Violent crime has repercussions far beyond the direct victim. It's only natural to want to do something, anything, about it. Especially given your experience with that murder. It's traumatic to be on the edge of situations like these. I'm glad you've got a forum like this where you can talk about it.
ApostateAwoken Posted April 18, 2014 Posted April 18, 2014 Holy crap. Keep an eye on him. Direct confrontation is probably not a good idea, because the guy is obviously different than what you thought he was like. Only you know him, so only you can make the call, but consider sending an anonymous report or something just to make sure that nothing extra is going on. If you do notice anything, I'd highly suggest doing the right thing and calling someone right away. When I was younger, a friend of mine once sexually abused me. She would always bully me and stuff, but I never thought much of it. One day, however, she pulled down my pants and did her thing even though I told her I wasn't comfortable with what was going on. Before too long, my mom came upstairs and so the incident was quick, but it disturbed me. I moved and so I forgot about her until middle school, when I saw her. Most awkward eye contact ever, haha. It made me think about it for a while, but I personally decided that that was long ago, it was of no use bringing up now, and I saw no reason to believe that anything like that was currently going on... so yeah, I personally just let things rest, but your situation is far more severe as the charges are more severe and he was definitely way older than just a curious, perverted 5-year-old manipulating another 5-year-old.
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