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Why Isn't The World More Perfect?


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God is good, they say. In fact, Christians go much further and say that God is perfect. If so, why did he create such an imperfect world? You will probably cite "The Fall" saying the world was perfect before sin entered it, but this just raises more questions:

 

1. Why did a perfect God allow sin to be created? John 1:3 says "Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made." Couldn't an omnipotent deity keep sin out?

 

2. What was the purpose of the Flood? Genesis 6:7 says "So the LORD said, 'I will wipe mankind, whom I have created, from the face of the earth - men and animals, and creatures that move along the ground, and birds of the air - for I am grieved that I have made them.'" So isn't perfect God admitting he made a mistake? And in what way was the post-Flood world less wicked than the pre-Flood one?

 

3. Why does a loving, forgiving, perfect, omnipotent god need a sacrifice of blood for sin? We are suppose to forgive freely, but God didn't. He required blood.

 

There are other questions related to this theme, but I think that's enough to get us started.

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God is good, they say. In fact, Christians go much further and say that God is perfect. If so, why did he create such an imperfect world? You will probably cite "The Fall" saying the world was perfect before sin entered it, but this just raises more questions:

The problem is in preconceived ideas. Copernicus worked for years to come up with a model for the orbits of the planets, but in order to get Mars to work in this model, he had it doing some sort of bizarre loop the loop at a certain point to explain why it would appear ahead of earth at one point in sky, and then fall back behind when it should be more ahead. The problem was he believed that since God created the heavens, the orbits should be perfect circles. It wasn't until Kepler later got rid of that preconceived idea and went with "imperfect" orbits, elliptical orbits, that the math all worked.

 

Hmmm.... ancient lessons for a modern world?

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God is good, they say. In fact, Christians go much further and say that God is perfect. If so, why did he create such an imperfect world? You will probably cite "The Fall" saying the world was perfect before sin entered it, but this just raises more questions:

 

1. Why did a perfect God allow sin to be created? John 1:3 says "Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made." Couldn't an omnipotent deity keep sin out?

 

2. What was the purpose of the Flood? Genesis 6:7 says "So the LORD said, 'I will wipe mankind, whom I have created, from the face of the earth - men and animals, and creatures that move along the ground, and birds of the air - for I am grieved that I have made them.'" So isn't perfect God admitting he made a mistake? And in what way was the post-Flood world less wicked than the pre-Flood one?

 

3. Why does a loving, forgiving, perfect, omnipotent god need a sacrifice of blood for sin? We are suppose to forgive freely, but God didn't. He required blood.

 

There are other questions related to this theme, but I think that's enough to get us started.

:blink:

I am not a Christian, but what I'm going to say is the response that you state...The Fall. But, with a different understanding of it. I think "God" (whatever that entails) 'thought' the universe into existence and 'is' the sustaining life force of the universe. That's it. This "God" is always everywhere but does nothing but to be present and this presence is truth. The fall can be seen as mankind believing in lies about themselves (the thoughts they accept as true but are actually false) after accumulating knowledge (the tree).

 

Therefore;

 

1. God has nothing to do with sin. It is people that have turned away from what is true by accepting (eating) that their knowledge (the fruit) is true and believing it to be true. This knowledge is contamined with lies (the prince of lies) because we accept that our judgements about ourselves and others are true. This is what lead to 'sin' because if our judgements are true then other people's are false. How can god interact with what It is? People must access this truth, not fear judgement from it.

 

2. The flood represent a spritual cleaning of the soul of mankind. It's not any better, because it never happened...literally. The spiritual cleaning is a process for everyone and after someone has succeed in this cleaning, only the "clean beasts" (aspects of the personality) remain. God would be grieved from a human standpoint. This is human emotion projected on to god in order to get the point of the story across. Something like, "if god could see us now he would be greived!" Not that It is grieved. (Another little lie we tell ourselves!)

 

3. God doesn't require anything. People are telling the story about personal forgiveness. Jesus says, "Forgive them, for they know not what they do." He says this because when anyone crucifies themselves or others they are projecting what they believe to be the truth onto themselves and others. Knowledge is a wonderful tool that can destroy if it is allowed to control the user. If knowledge causes judgement and damnation, then this knowledge is contaminated. We just don't realize it so we cannot be held responsible for it...so forgive.

 

Just my thoughts. A Christian may see it differently. :HaHa:

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This is one of the nails in Xianity's coffin, for me. How can God be all knowing and all powerful and yet create a world that he must have known would end up in a very imperfect state? If man and nature are imperfect, and if we can judge a tree by the fruit it produces (like the Bible itself says), then God cannot be a perfect being, since all that was created is evidently not free from flaw.

 

Just another simple exercise in logic that drills a big hole in Yahweh's boat.

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1. Why did a perfect God allow sin to be created?
Without challenge there can be no growth nor perfecting. Evil and Sin are concerns only to those who are in a growth stage. They are the challenge to either learn how to properly deal or fade away for not trying. - Why the world is not more perfect.

 

2. What was the purpose of the Flood?
When do you decide to repair and when do you decide to replace? God (Reality) will only accept Man when Man can finally stand on Hisown and accept Reality.

 

3. Why does a loving, forgiving, perfect, omnipotent god need a sacrifice of blood for sin?
"Blood" represents a highly passionate concern from the heart. Basically it means that you're genuine and serious. God (Reality) requires that you grow up and get serious because playing and pretending won't cut it.

 

From "Lust in the Mind"..

... I was too often tempted to quote a man I once heard, “God created the entire universe, then saw within it the most powerful destructive assembly and spoke to it saying ‘This universe is as my toilet and you are in charge of the handle, I don’t want to ever see anything floating in here unless it just won’t go down the drain, then I’ll handle it myself.” Out of habit, I actually tried to analyze the possible reality of that. I found myself feeling a bit uneasy.

 

Jesus basically said, "If Man will LOVE Reality, then His heart will allow His mind to see Reality for what it is and He can be saved."

 

He had to allow Himself to be sacrificed just to get Man to listen.

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God is good, they say. In fact, Christians go much further and say that God is perfect. If so, why did he create such an imperfect world? You will probably cite "The Fall" saying the world was perfect before sin entered it, but this just raises more questions:

 

1. Why did a perfect God allow sin to be created? John 1:3 says "Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made." Couldn't an omnipotent deity keep sin out?

 

In what I believe to be modern additional light comparable to the Bible we learn that there must be "oppossition in all things. If not so... rightouesness could not be brought to pass, neither wickedness."( 2 Nephi 2:11-13)

 

 

As for keeping sin out, only at the cost of our agency (our ability to choose) something god does not seem to want to happen at any cost.

2. What was the purpose of the Flood? Genesis 6:7 says "So the LORD said, 'I will wipe mankind, whom I have created, from the face of the earth - men and animals, and creatures that move along the ground, and birds of the air - for I am grieved that I have made them.'" So isn't perfect God admitting he made a mistake? And in what way was the post-Flood world less wicked than the pre-Flood one?

 

During the pre flood times, it was a rather bad place to be. Men had used their agency in the opposite way they were supposed to be using it. To allow them to continue using it as such would not only hurt the then living generation but all the generations which were to afterward live on the earth. (or that area depending on whether you view the flood as global or local.)

3. Why does a loving, forgiving, perfect, omnipotent god need a sacrifice of blood for sin? We are suppose to forgive freely, but God didn't. He required blood.

 

Because mercy cannot rob justice. The Savior's sacrifice made it possible for the demands of Justice to be met and mercy fully offered. Additional reading here.. Does that answer your questions?

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During the pre flood times, it was a rather bad place to be. Men had used their agency in the opposite way they were supposed to be using it. To allow them to continue using it as such would not only hurt the then living generation but all the generations which were to afterward live on the earth. (or that area depending on whether you view the flood as global or local.)

 

And what does it say in this narrative?

 

That God regretted that he made man.

 

How can an omniscient being - who knows all things about the future - regret anything?

 

Regret would indicate that he was surprised and saddened at the outcome.

 

Impossible, had God been what was claimed.

 

So, either the story is complete bunk, or God cannot see into the future.

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Because mercy cannot rob justice. The Savior's sacrifice made it possible for the demands of Justice to be met and mercy fully offered. Additional reading here.. Does that answer your questions?

 

What sacrifice? You mean a "god" that supposedly gets tortured for a bit, dies and goes back to the heaven from which it came? What a joke! How horrible for the infinite being to suffer a tiny amount of pain and get snickered at. Even if Jesus were a man, man and not a god...so what? People have suffered far worse than that and compared to what mainstream Christianity believes will happen to people for not believing...Jesus suffered not even 1/4 of the time it takes to blink an eye in comparison to the belief that people will be tortured eternally.

 

 

Tortured for a bit? The cross was the climax, not the only part to the atonement. I believe that the Atonement entailed the "pains of every living creature, both men, women and children..."

 

 

As for your second point, I do not consider myself a mainstream Christian. Hell has a bit of a different meaning than what I think you are getting at.

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During the pre flood times, it was a rather bad place to be. Men had used their agency in the opposite way they were supposed to be using it. To allow them to continue using it as such would not only hurt the then living generation but all the generations which were to afterward live on the earth. (or that area depending on whether you view the flood as global or local.)

 

And what does it say in this narrative?

 

That God regretted that he made man.

 

How can an omniscient being - who knows all things about the future - regret anything?

 

The KJV (and you) used grieved, grieved and regret are slightly different. Grief is a natural result of seeing something you cherish being destroyed or marred.

 

Regret would indicate that he was surprised and saddened at the outcome.

 

Impossible, had God been what was claimed.

 

So, either the story is complete bunk, or God cannot see into the future.

 

 

What version are you using? Because mine uses grieved rather than regret.

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The KJV (and you) used grieved, grieved and regret are slightly different. Grief is a natural result of seeing something you cherish being destroyed or marred.

 

So is KJV a superior translation?

 

 

No. I made a boo boo. See when he said in the narrative I thought he meant his post. Gen 6:6 does use 'repenteth' however this is a mistranslation, the Heb. being 'moved to pity', 'have compassion' or 'to be sorry'.

 

I don't think there is a superior translation of the Bible without the original manuscripts. They all try though.

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I don't think there is a superior translation of the Bible without the original manuscripts. They all try though.

Then we sure do have a problem as no originals exist. This perhaps explain the 30,000+ denominational confusion in Christianity. Everyone picks the version they like, and then everyone interprets that version the way that best suits their exegesis. I.E. Christ’s prayer about them being one failed, so he failed being God. “God” didn’t answer his own prayer – go figure.

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I don't think there is a superior translation of the Bible without the original manuscripts. They all try though.

Then we sure do have a problem as no originals exist. This perhaps explain the 30,000+ denominational confusion in Christianity. Everyone picks the version they like, and then everyone interprets that version the way that best suits their exegesis. I.E. Christ’s prayer about them being one failed, so he failed being God. “God” didn’t answer his own prayer – go figure.

 

I think the problem is more without the authorized persons Christ set up, it becomes rather difficult to distinguish which interpretations are correct and which are not. Which is in part why I believe what I do

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I think the problem is more without the authorized persons Christ set up, it becomes rather difficult to distinguish which interpretations are correct and which are not. Which is in part why I believe what I do

Authorized persons? Who authorized them, and how do we know it, and what are they authorized to do?

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1. Why did a perfect God allow sin to be created? John 1:3 says "Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made." Couldn't an omnipotent deity keep sin out?

Yes he could've. Since he is allegedly omniscient he knew before he created the earth man would sin. He knew before Adam and Eve did that they would doom all of humanity. He knew Satan would rebel. Yet he still created all of this. It is called being a sadistic being.

 

2. What was the purpose of the Flood? Genesis 6:7 says "So the LORD said, 'I will wipe mankind, whom I have created, from the face of the earth - men and animals, and creatures that move along the ground, and birds of the air - for I am grieved that I have made them.'" So isn't perfect God admitting he made a mistake? And in what way was the post-Flood world less wicked than the pre-Flood one?

I agree it is God saying he made a mistake. Even more it just shows his sadistic ways by outright killing them. Besides he knew before he created the earth what the outcome would be. He still created the earth knowing he would flood it. There is no difference. Its just another fairy tale to scare people into believing. "See the almighty power of gawd. He flooded the earth. Imagine what he will do to you if you act bad."

 

3. Why does a loving, forgiving, perfect, omnipotent god need a sacrifice of blood for sin? We are suppose to forgive freely, but God didn't. He required blood.

This begs the question: Why did God have to kill himself (which in of itself makes no sense) and bring himself to life, and seat himself to the right of himself, just to save humans? Its ridiculous.

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God is good, they say. In fact, Christians go much further and say that God is perfect. If so, why did he create such an imperfect world? You will probably cite "The Fall" saying the world was perfect before sin entered it, but this just raises more questions:

 

1. Why did a perfect God allow sin to be created? John 1:3 says "Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made." Couldn't an omnipotent deity keep sin out?

 

2. What was the purpose of the Flood? Genesis 6:7 says "So the LORD said, 'I will wipe mankind, whom I have created, from the face of the earth - men and animals, and creatures that move along the ground, and birds of the air - for I am grieved that I have made them.'" So isn't perfect God admitting he made a mistake? And in what way was the post-Flood world less wicked than the pre-Flood one?

 

3. Why does a loving, forgiving, perfect, omnipotent god need a sacrifice of blood for sin? We are suppose to forgive freely, but God didn't. He required blood.

 

There are other questions related to this theme, but I think that's enough to get us started.

:blink:

 

The idea of an omnipotent, all powerful Deity who allows evil to exist is the greatest contradiction in Xianity. Of the following three statements, only two can be true.

 

1. Evil exists

2. God is good

3. God is all-powerful

 

If God is good, then he woud destroy evil if he could. Therefore He is not all powerful. If God is all powerful and allows evil to exist, than He is not good. Take your choice.

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I think the problem is more without the authorized persons Christ set up, it becomes rather difficult to distinguish which interpretations are correct and which are not. Which is in part why I believe what I do

Authorized persons? Who authorized them, and how do we know it, and what are they authorized to do?

 

Maybe he is talking about the Jews :HaHa:

 

 

Zech 8:23

 

Thus saith the LORD of hosts; In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you

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Also, if Biblegodzilla is so perfect, why did he create humans the way he did?

 

Think about it; look at human beings. We are used to the particulars of our nature and physiology so we think little of it usually, but we are some of the most frail things alive. We can't ingest a bit of bacteria without getting sick, we can't have one of our soft, squishy organs fail for just a moment without us croaking or turning into a vegetable, and we only live for a little while anyway, always in danger of the littlest thing hurting us or killing us before our time.

 

Now, if Gawd is so perfect, why are cockroaches more resilent to disease than we are? Why can bugs and animals live in harsher climates than we can (minus our technological innovations without which we'd have it a lot harder)? Why on earth are we so flippin' fragile? Break a little bone. bam - off your feet. Get a virus, bam - on your back for a week. Live too long, bam - your organs fail and you get sick every five minutes.

 

This is why I think the Creator(s) of the universe was only able to create the basic building blocks of life and the rest just developed and evolved on its own. No perfect being would design beings so fragile and prone to fatal injury as the human being.

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I am not a Christian, but what I'm going to say is the response that you state...The Fall. But, with a different understanding of it. I think "God" (whatever that entails) 'thought' the universe into existence and 'is' the sustaining life force of the universe. That's it. This "God" is always everywhere but does nothing but to be present and this presence is truth. The fall can be seen as mankind believing in lies about themselves (the thoughts they accept as true but are actually false) after accumulating knowledge (the tree).

 

 

I know you are just speaking in alegory here, so I won't be too hard on you :grin: , I'm just wondering how you account for the animals. If the fall of mankind caused inperfection, why are some animals born with imperfections?

 

3. Why does a loving, forgiving, perfect, omnipotent god need a sacrifice of blood for sin?
"Blood" represents a highly passionate concern from the heart. Basically it means that you're genuine and serious. God (Reality) requires that you grow up and get serious because playing and pretending won't cut it.

 

What a load of crap!

 

You're telling me that all those poor calves and lambs passionately gave the ultimate sacrifice as a concern from their hearts? Or are you saying that those who sacrificed said animals passionately took the lives of those poor animals at great sacrifice to themselves (as if they were killing their favorite pets?!).

 

Give me a break. The only way to interpret the data is that xtianity was built out of an old tribal religion whose ignorant mentality can be seen in other old tribal religions. You my friend have your head so far up your ass you can't smell the difference of bullshit from your own shit.

 

Yes, I'm using ad homs because why should I reason with someone who swallows this kind of reason. :ugh:

 

These idiot christians are so stupid that they don't realize that they could solve this problem by taking on the position that their god is in fact NOT omnipotent. Facts being as they are, an omnipotent god is completely impossible, and as such they seal the coffin on their own beliefs by refusing to budge on this issue. Dumb asses.

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I am not a Christian, but what I'm going to say is the response that you state...The Fall. But, with a different understanding of it. I think "God" (whatever that entails) 'thought' the universe into existence and 'is' the sustaining life force of the universe. That's it. This "God" is always everywhere but does nothing but to be present and this presence is truth. The fall can be seen as mankind believing in lies about themselves (the thoughts they accept as true but are actually false) after accumulating knowledge (the tree).

 

 

I know you are just speaking in alegory here, so I won't be too hard on you :grin: , I'm just wondering how you account for the animals. If the fall of mankind caused inperfection, why are some animals born with imperfections?

 

That's okay!

 

It's not physical perfection I'm speaking of. I'm talking about the state of our minds. Reality is only a reflection of what we believe. Not physical reality but our actions in reality. The fall is a condition of mankind's mental state. Nothing more...

 

Animals are perfect because they don't have this knowledge of right and wrong or good and evil. No dualities exist for them and they are one with nature. Even though we are perfect (spiritually), our imperfections are a result of believing we are separate from nature and each other which creates dualities and bolsters our egos. This in turn creates evil in the world.

 

It is all a state of mind that has an affect on our daily lives and the lives of others. And, if you apply this state to all people in the entire world, then it becomes a collective problem that can be seen in violence on a grand scale.

 

It does me good to remind myself that the bible and many others are speaking about the spirituality of mankind. This allows me to understand that these stories are speaking about an inner state...not some state that exists outside ourselves prior to ourselves. It we believe the latter, we keep searching for something that would solve all the evils in the world for us. It's not there...it's inside each of us, but we first have to change the way we think and reality will follow. Most have it backwards.

 

Thank's for being so kind! :thanks:

 

Also, in reference to Ssel's post, I believe he is trying to show how blood is an allegory for what one cares about. It is supposed to be a sacrifice of what one thinks they actually care about (egoically). This was a long time ago where animals represented the wealth of the farmer. If they are identifing themselves with their animals (wealth), it really hurts them to scrafice one. The animals were thought as property (as many are today). God had nothing to do with the killing of the animals, this is just what man took pride in so the animals got the axe. It is supposed to get one to understand that who they are is not what they own. They are more than that. Their identity is divine regardless of what they own. It is still applicable today if one finds their identity in...say...their car and belongings. How many times have you seen someone so proud to own a cool sportscar? They are pretending that who they are is tied up in what they own. This is not true...they are much more than what they own.

 

What I have been speaking about is just a philosophical truth, IMO, that we tend to identify ourselves with our egos. I do believe we are more than who we think we are...we are parts of this universal energy, or love, or peace, or whatever one would like to call it because our natural state is one of peace. We don't have bouts of peace between our natural state of anger and fear (anger is cause by fear of our egos being attacked)...we have bouts of anger and fear and then it passes and we are once again peaceful. This is proof for me.

 

So, in the end, it doesn't matter if god exists outside of who we are. I don't think it does...it couldn't.

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I think the problem is more without the authorized persons Christ set up, it becomes rather difficult to distinguish which interpretations are correct and which are not. Which is in part why I believe what I do

Authorized persons? Who authorized them, and how do we know it, and what are they authorized to do?

 

Maybe he is talking about the Jews :HaHa:

 

 

Zech 8:23

 

Thus saith the LORD of hosts; In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you

 

I was talking about Prophets and Apostles.

 

 

 

However, Who? Hell or not, the bible deity is accredited with some mighty awful atrocities that he supposedly ordered be done. I owe zero worship to such an evil and vile creature if one indeed existed.

 

You are right, some things were commanded which are somewhat difficult to understand. I am not sure I have an answer. I have thoughts and speculations, but no answers.

 

I will not be made to feel sorry for poor Jesus, if he lived, he got what he deserved according to the OT's commandments for false prophets.

 

Assuming of course he was a false prophet.

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Assuming of course he was a false prophet.

 

Thats not assumed, the OT proves that Jesus is not the promised Messiah. The messiah was supposed to do things right the first time and the fact that Jeremiah 31 hasn't happened and never will, there shouldn't even be a NT.

 

I believe that those things are in the process of being fulfilled or will be. I'm fine with agreeing to disagree.

OTH, even if it did match up, doesn't prove that the bible is the word of a loving sky deity. Just cuz' the bible says so, doesn't make it truth. I don't believe nor accept the myths of any religion, including the Jewish and Christian ones.

 

 

The joys of life. Free to worship who, how, or what we choose, right?

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The joys of life. Free to worship who, how, or what we choose, right?

 

Yes, precisely what Xianity and Jeezus would take away from us.

 

And Serene - well-said, all of it :)

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I believe that those things are in the process of being fulfilled or will be. I'm fine with agreeing to disagree.

The OT leaves no room for "in the process of being fulfilled." That's just a cop-out to argue away unfulfilled prophecy. The OT makes very specific statements on how we can test prophecy. And none of it’s was fulfilled through Jesus.

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