Why Isn't The World More Perfect?

[Anakin]

forgiveness alone is not enough to right the consequences.

If the victim, in this case being an all powerful god, is satisified to just forgive then

it's enough. If anything else is required then it's not true forgiveness.

If the victim gives up the desire to punish and pardons the offender and offense and is

happy with that, then it is enough. Now the rest of us may look at that and be in complete

disbelief that the victim would let the offender get away with it. But it's really just

between the victim and the offender.

[SkepticOfBible]

If people are breaking traffic signals you appoint authorized servants to restore knowledge of the meaning of those lights and to enforce consequences to breaking them.

 

Verse from the OT please for your above assertion?

 

These servants should be listened to even if they say that yellow means you should stop if you have the ability, when it has always been thought it meant close your eyes, gun it, and pray.

 

However in your case, the Mormons and other christians keep violating the Red Light(there is no yellow lights in the Law), and then claim that it is ok to do so.

 

On what basis are you saying that some laws remain while ceremonial laws do not need to be followed. Show me one verse from the OT which proves your assertion.

 

That is what the Book of Mormon claims to be. The authority and truth which was lost through apostasy, has been restored, complete with prophets just as Moses!.

 

So Mormons are as great as Moses.

 

When did a Mormon prophet did the following

 

1)Parted a river(let alone a sea) with their so called deemed authority

2)Healed a person of AID

3)Drank a poison

4)Turned the various sands into insects

 

Moses and various other prophets of the OT did fantastic miracles to backup their claims, however I see none of those miracles being replicated by either christians nor mormons.

 

Do you suppose that the centuries without prophets, that great famine, could not result in error? With so many opposing views how could it not?

 

The Mormon view is just of those opposing views. So much for the promise of Jesus about the HS guiding those in believe in him to the truth

 

What evidence is there that it comes from the Hebrew god? Its fulfillment of prophecy.

 

Nope, the OT also clearly states that the Hebrew God would send false prophets to test his people, the Jews

 

Prophets and Prophecy

FACT: No Jew prayed to Jesus prior to two thousand years ago.

 

FACT: Jews would have been unfamiliar with the concept of G-d in human form.

 

FACT: Jesus was, in essence, something that the Jews had not known.

 

FACT: Deuteronomy 13 specifically warns us that G-d will grant the power of miracles to people who would lead us astray from Judaism.

 

FACT: Deuteronomy 13 specifically says that Jews must not worship anything they had not previously known, no matter how many miracles the prophet performs, or how many events he predicts correctly.

 

Unless someone can find verses in the Jewish Bible that say the Jews worshipped Jesus, these facts would seem to be incontrovertible.

 

.........

 

" If a Christian asks, "if Paul was a false prophet, why would G-d allow him to behave in such a way?" the answer is simple. G-d allowed this prophet to speak such abominations in order to test us to see how much we love G-d.

........

 

Deuteronomy 13 specifically tells us not to listen to that prophet even if the sign or wonder comes about, if his message isn't consistent with Judaism. If we are to begin worshipping Jesus, whereas we had not before, then the prophet who spoke those words was still a false prophet, even if what he foretold came true!

 

...............

A true prophet sent by G-d will never preach a message contrary to even one of the Torah's precepts. If someone claiming Divine Inspiration, the Torah demands that this so-called prophet prove himself. In light of this, Jesus and Paul did some rather heinous things in their lifetimes. They completely vilified those who opposed their theologies, a crime from which stems two thousand years of Christian anti-Semitism. They did everything that a false prophet could do to loudly scream that he was false. Chapters 13 and 18 of Deuteronomy clearly define false prophets, and Jesus and Paul are the living incarnations of that definition.

 

Many of the so called 300 hundred that Jesus had claimed to have fulfilled are hardly prophecies. The NT writers are quite good at qouting verses out of context of the OT scriptures to give credibility to their claims.

 

Isaiah 29 contains a prophecy of a people who cried from the dust. A book which would be brought to the learned and the learned response would be I cannot read a sealed book.

 

Is 29 is just one of the a serious of curses(Is 27-32) that Isaiah is giving to City of Ariel. If you claim that Is 29 is a prophecy, then most of it has not being fulfilled at all.

 

A book in response to the people who "draw nigh with their lips, but whose hearts are far from him". The book of Mormon is that Book! This is not bad news, it is good! We have prophets again! They understand what the traffic lights mean!

 

Once again the OT blows away your holy smoke regarding this point

Deut 30:8-11

And thou shalt return and obey the voice of the LORD, and do all his commandments which I command thee this day.

And the LORD thy God will make thee plenteous in every work of thine hand, in the fruit of thy body, and in the fruit of thy cattle, and in the fruit of thy land, for good: for the LORD will again rejoice over thee for good, as he rejoiced over thy fathers:

If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, and if thou turn unto the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul.

For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off (not too difficult to do).

 

The rules/"traffic light" are quite easy to follow, and nowhere does it mention that you need prophets to explain the meaning of the "traffic lights".

 

Do you need a prophet to explain the "meaning" behind the following rules of OT

 

1)not have sex before marriage

2)not to be gay

3)Not to rape a woman in the field

3)not to break the sabbath

 

Are we to look to the unauthorized, who recognize a loss of prophets, who recognize this loss of communication from the author of those laws for understanding of those laws? How could we? Do not treat Mormonisms claims so lightly.

 

I didn't understand the first few sentences.

 

And no, I am looking at your claims very seriously

 

I realize I did not answer you point by point, but if the book of mormon is what it claims to be, than your concerns are answered, right?

 

Yes, the big IF has a lot of hurdles namely

 

1)NT is the continued revelation of the Hebrew GOD

2)Your NT and OT canon is the correct one as compared to the competiting canons in the world

3)That Jesus was the Jewish Messiah of the OT

 

So first if you convince me of 1,2,3 than I will look at your claim of book of mormon.

 

Since you mentioned prophecy please address my this post http://www.ex-christian.net/index.php?showtopic=7171# (Post 16)

[Anakin]

You know it has occured to me that you and I may be thinking about two different things.

Your thinking about how the window still needs fixed. I'm thinking about how the situation

fits in with the concept of justice. Once forgiven, justice is done. Once this is done, as far

as justice goes there are no more consequences. Like I said not everyone may agree that

justice was actually served, but that's between the victim and offender only.

I also can't help but think I've allowed myself to be sidetracked a bit.

So...

Earlier you said that it would not be acceptable to murder my son because it would be against

my son's will and would not fix the consequences. I agree it wouldn't fix anything.

But if my son was willing to die so I would forgive you, would that make his murder OK?

Would this be OK? Is this justice?

[NotBlinded]

The window is not a direct consequence of your actions. A consequence of your actions is something

that directly effects you the offender. If I obtain a warrant or make you pay for the window

that is a direct consequence of your actions. In other words you the offender would be paying

the consequences for your actions. If I forgive you I give up the desire to punish you. I have

pardoned the offense and offender. Being forgiven, nothing else is required of you. You are

off the hook. There are no longer consequences. The offense has been delt with. I, the victim,

am satisified. So at point the window is no longer relevant. And all that was necessary to forgive

you was simply my will to forgive. I'm just a human and can do that. Surely an omnipotent

god can do that too. Is god omnipotent?

Hi Anakin.

 

First, I am going to assume Who is male so I don't clutter up my post with the s/he thing.

 

Who is looking for personal forgiveness and feels there is no one that can forgive him for his offense and he is correct if he excludes himself, in which he does. He doesn't think that it is within his power to forgive himself, therefore, someone must die in order for him to feel forgiven. The adsurdity of this literal thinking is evident in the discussion you are having with him.

 

We can get all the forgiveness piled on us from everyone we offend, but that wouldn't make us feel any better until we can forgive ourselves first. This is where Who errs...he looks outside himself for personal forgiveness when personal forgiveness must come from oneself.

 

I hope you don't mind me speaking about Who to you because Who chooses to ignore me, but I also wanted to add a few things here.

[Anakin]

The window is not a direct consequence of your actions. A consequence of your actions is something

that directly effects you the offender. If I obtain a warrant or make you pay for the window

that is a direct consequence of your actions. In other words you the offender would be paying

the consequences for your actions. If I forgive you I give up the desire to punish you. I have

pardoned the offense and offender. Being forgiven, nothing else is required of you. You are

off the hook. There are no longer consequences. The offense has been delt with. I, the victim,

am satisified. So at point the window is no longer relevant. And all that was necessary to forgive

you was simply my will to forgive. I'm just a human and can do that. Surely an omnipotent

god can do that too. Is god omnipotent?

Hi Anakin.

 

First, I am going to assume Who is male so I don't clutter up my post with the s/he thing.

 

Who is looking for personal forgiveness and feels there is no one that can forgive him for his offense and he is correct if he excludes himself, in which he does. He doesn't think that it is within his power to forgive himself, therefore, someone must die in order for him to feel forgiven. The adsurdity of this literal thinking is evident in the discussion you are having with him.

 

We can get all the forgiveness piled on us from everyone we offend, but that wouldn't make us feel any better until we can forgive ourselves first. This is where Who errs...he looks outside himself for personal forgiveness when personal forgiveness must come from oneself.

 

I hope you don't mind me speaking about Who to you because Who chooses to ignore me, but I also wanted to add a few things here.

Thank you. Good point. I hadn't even thought of it that way.

[NotBlinded]

Who, it's okay if you don't wish to resond to me, but please read what I am saying and hopefully you will understand.

 

I am going to address specific areas in your post one by one:

 

Or in a biblical sense, because thou hast eaten the fruit thou shalt surely die.

This is speaking of spritual death because all forms will eventually disappear. Once people evolved beyond the pre-thought form of animals, we became aware of ourselves. With this awareness comes knowledge and with knowledge comes judgement of right and wrong or in a biblical sense, good and evil. We now had the ability to see ourselves as right and others as wrong or vise versa. The tree of knowledge was infested with lies (snake) and we believed the lies and found our identity with knowledge. This is turning away from our true nature (divine) and identifying with our minds (egos).

 

Unless someone with the ability to over come that death (which was twofold Physical and spiritual) forgiveness alone is not enough to right the consequences.

You are the only one with the ability to overcome spiritual death (physical death is imminent) because mankind is the one the turned away from immanence, or understanding our divine nature.

 

Seeing as neither you or I or anyone else I am aware of can correct these consequences we are doomed to die physically and be forever spiritually dead (the soul is eternal, it cannot be destroyed).

You will remain spiritually dead as long as you look for forgiveness, or enlightenment, outside yourself. We closed our eyes to what is real because we cannot 'see' or 'hear' our true nature. We just naturally assume we are our minds (egos). We are 'double-minded' as James refers to.

 

You will only be 'saved' spritually when you realize that what you seek is already inside you.

 

Thus someone with the ability and the willingness had to come forth to overcome these consequences.

Jesus realized his divine nature. "I and the Father are one." This does not mean that this union is only with Him and the Father. "Or don't you know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit, who lives in you and was given to you by God? You do not belong to yourself," And: "I in them and you in me, all being perfected into one. Then the world will know that you sent me and will understand that you love them as much as you love me."

 

The sacrifice that Jesus made was made so that people could understand that god is inside everyone and what stops them from being forgiving and understanding is not recognizing this. Jesus knew the ones that were killing him were 'blind' to their true nature and forgave them. He is your example, not your saviour. You have a responsibility to know this.

 

Edit: To other readers: I am speaking about this from a biblical perspective, not from an absolute standpoint. I feel all major religions and spiritual speakers have this essence at its core and is overlooked (or completely not understood) when it becomes dogmatic.

[Skankboy]

Who? We're still waiting for the difference between "predestined" and "foreordained"...

[Skankboy]

Nothing eh? Oh well... guess "who?" doesn't want to play anymore...

[NotBlinded]

Nothing eh? Oh well... guess "who?" doesn't want to play anymore...

Okay, I'll bite...who doesn't want to play anymore?

[Anakin]

No, who's on first.

[Who?]

Who? We're still waiting for the difference between "predestined" and "foreordained"...

 

 

Predistined is being made to do something. Then consequences according to those actions befall said being. It carries accountability without agency, which is unjust.

 

Under foreordination while we are obligated to accomplish or do certain things, we still retain agency and with that agency accountability if we fail to accomplish those things.

 

 

Anakin, I am focusing on the need to fix the window because the window does need to be fixed. If death, physical and spiritual had not been overcome, all of us would be subject to those consequences to our actions. Under those consequences we cannot obtain a fulness of joy.

 

Could the resurrection (the conquering of physical death) be brought about if the Savior had not died? Or spiritual death be conquered by means outside of the Atonement? I do not know, however I trust that it is or at least was the best way, because that was the way we agreed upon.

 

 

Skeptic, Perhaps you understand the story found in 2 kings 22:8-14 a little differently than I do. It is the story of Hilkiah finding a book which contained laws of the lord. Laws which had not been heeded due to a form of apostasy. The elements of the story are very similiar to the book of Mormon, only it comes forth after a much longer and more complete apostasy. (this is in response to your first 2 points and a few of your later points. If you desire I could spend some time gathering the information relevant here I just do not have the time right now.)

 

Miracles are indeed signs which should accompany prophets, however they are not to be proof. As you pointed out true prophets are not the only ones who can perform miracles. Furthermore miracles are believed or disbelieved depending on ones initial disposition.

 

 

 

I didn't understand the first few sentences.

 

Its my understanding of current religions. If I were to take the posts you have addressed to me and started talking for you based on those posts. I doubt I would be able to get everything right especially on topics you have not had to address. Now lets say that I recieved those posts after some people had gone through them and decided what was relevant and what wasn't. Do you think I could make an accurate portrayal of you to other people?

 

In many ways that is what many of the limited scripture theists have determined to do. Only rather than speaking for a fellow poster, they are trying to speak for god. That is why the book of Mormon is so nice. A post from a poster we haven't heard from in a while.

 

 

Not Blinded by the Light, its not that I have a problem with your thoughts, its that I don't. While there may be somethings we do disagree on such as the nature of god, the Ideas you present i can agree with to some degree or another.

[Fweethawt]

Who? We're still waiting for the difference between "predestined" and "foreordained"...

Predistined is being made to do something. Then consequences according to those actions befall said being. It carries accountability without agency, which is unjust.

 

Under foreordination while we are obligated to accomplish or do certain things, we still retain agency and with that agency accountability if we fail to accomplish those things.

The tool necessary for interpreting posts such as this requires a special recipe calling for 3 parts crack, and 2 parts crystal-meth.

[SkepticOfBible]

Skeptic, Perhaps you understand the story found in 2 kings 22:8-14 a little differently than I do. It is the story of Hilkiah finding a book which contained laws of the lord. Laws which had not been heeded due to a form of apostasy. The elements of the story are very similiar to the book of Mormon, only it comes forth after a much longer and more complete apostasy.

 

You are pretty much playing the "foreshadowment"/"Typological parallels" card. There are two flaws in this

 

1)This is NOT supported in the OT

2)Then "Typological parallels" and "foreshadowings" can be easily created by simply using whatever scripture remotely relates to a story you are trying to validate, by pulling the verses out of context

For example, God gives an amazing level of detail to how he wants an important tent decorated:

 

Exo 26:2-14

The length of one curtain shall be eight and twenty cubits, and the breadth of one curtain four cubits: and every one of the curtains shall have one measure.

The five curtains shall be coupled together one to another; and other five curtains shall be coupled one to another.

And thou shalt make loops of blue upon the edge of the one curtain from the selvedge in the coupling; and likewise shalt thou make in the uttermost edge of another curtain, in the coupling of the second.

Fifty loops shalt thou make in the one curtain, and fifty loops shalt thou make in the edge of the curtain that is in the coupling of the second; that the loops may take hold one of another.

And thou shalt make fifty taches of gold, and couple the curtains together with the taches: and it shall be one tabernacle.

And thou shalt make curtains of goats' hair to be a covering upon the tabernacle: eleven curtains shalt thou make.

The length of one curtain shall be thirty cubits, and the breadth of one curtain four cubits: and the eleven curtains shall be all of one measure.

And thou shalt couple five curtains by themselves, and six curtains by themselves, and shalt double the sixth curtain in the forefront of the tabernacle.

And thou shalt make fifty loops on the edge of the one curtain that is outmost in the coupling, and fifty loops in the edge of the curtain which coupleth the second.

And thou shalt make fifty taches of brass, and put the taches into the loops, and couple the tent together, that it may be one.

And the remnant that remaineth of the curtains of the tent, the half curtain that remaineth, shall hang over the backside of the tabernacle.

And a cubit on the one side, and a cubit on the other side of that which remaineth in the length of the curtains of the tent, it shall hang over the sides of the tabernacle on this side and on that side, to cover it.

And thou shalt make a covering for the tent of rams' skins dyed red, and a covering above of badgers' skins.

 

Just to show how creative this type of rationalization which Christians/Mormons use is, I can do the same type of thing they find so easy to do and justify.

Exo 26:2-14 is a "typological parallel" and "foreshadowing" of God sending his servant Martha Stewart to instruct the world on the nuances and details of proper interior decorating.

 

Martha Stewart, the queen of decorating and craft work for the insides of houses, fulfilled Exo 26:2-14 by showing people how to precisely craft pretty curtains, doilies, cup coasters, flower pots, and other assorted trinkets for the insides of houses. Martha Stewart is a messenger from God and she must be doing God's work and preaching God's word.

 

Martha is a valid servant of the one true God because she fulfilled the prophecy which God outlined in Exo 26.

 

If this analogy seems ridiculous to you, I suggest you take a good, hard look at how the author of Matthew used the same procedure to manufacture a prophecy fulfillment for Jesus

 

(this is in response to your first 2 points and a few of your later points. If you desire I could spend some time gathering the information relevant here I just do not have the time right now.)

 

Totally understand that, and I thank you for your time to answer our queries

 

Miracles are indeed signs which should accompany prophets, however they are not to be proof.

Yes they are, and even Jesus said so. Miracles by his disciples were just one of the proof that would prove what he said was true.

[Skankboy]

Predistined is being made to do something. Then consequences according to those actions befall said being. It carries accountability without agency, which is unjust.

 

Under foreordination while we are obligated to accomplish or do certain things, we still retain agency and with that agency accountability if we fail to accomplish those things.

 

Hmm...your definition of "foreordained" sounds suspiciously like the definition of a "command". Indeed you can disobey a command, and you would suffer the consequences of failure. But, going back to the "book" definitions:

 

pre•des•ti•na•tion P Pronunciation Key (pr -d s t -n sh n)

n.

1. The act of predestining or the condition of being predestined.

2. Theology.

a. The doctrine that God has foreordained all things, especially that God has elected certain souls to eternal salvation.

b. The divine decree foreordaining all souls to either salvation or damnation.

c. The act of God foreordaining all things gone before and to come.

3. Destiny; fate.

 

 

fore•or•dain P Pronunciation Key (fôr ôr-d n , f r -)

tr.v. fore•or•dained, fore•or•dain•ing, fore•or•dains

To determine or appoint beforehand; predestine.

 

As you can see, the definition for foreordain is referenced back to the definition of predestined. And within predestined the "theological" version, the one that would be pertainant here, most definitely does not show any element of "choice" or "agency".

 

So again I must wonder from where you derive your unique definitions?

 

IMOHO,

[Who?]

Skeptic, Perhaps you understand the story found in 2 kings 22:8-14 a little differently than I do. It is the story of Hilkiah finding a book which contained laws of the lord. Laws which had not been heeded due to a form of apostasy. The elements of the story are very similiar to the book of Mormon, only it comes forth after a much longer and more complete apostasy.

 

You are pretty much playing the "foreshadowment"/"Typological parallels" card. There are two flaws in this

 

1)This is NOT supported in the OT

2)Then "Typological parallels" and "foreshadowings" can be easily created by simply using whatever scripture remotely relates to a story you are trying to validate, by pulling the verses out of context

For example, God gives an amazing level of detail to how he wants an important tent decorated:

 

Exo 26:2-14

The length of one curtain shall be eight and twenty cubits, and the breadth of one curtain four cubits: and every one of the curtains shall have one measure.

The five curtains shall be coupled together one to another; and other five curtains shall be coupled one to another.

And thou shalt make loops of blue upon the edge of the one curtain from the selvedge in the coupling; and likewise shalt thou make in the uttermost edge of another curtain, in the coupling of the second.

Fifty loops shalt thou make in the one curtain, and fifty loops shalt thou make in the edge of the curtain that is in the coupling of the second; that the loops may take hold one of another.

And thou shalt make fifty taches of gold, and couple the curtains together with the taches: and it shall be one tabernacle.

And thou shalt make curtains of goats' hair to be a covering upon the tabernacle: eleven curtains shalt thou make.

The length of one curtain shall be thirty cubits, and the breadth of one curtain four cubits: and the eleven curtains shall be all of one measure.

And thou shalt couple five curtains by themselves, and six curtains by themselves, and shalt double the sixth curtain in the forefront of the tabernacle.

And thou shalt make fifty loops on the edge of the one curtain that is outmost in the coupling, and fifty loops in the edge of the curtain which coupleth the second.

And thou shalt make fifty taches of brass, and put the taches into the loops, and couple the tent together, that it may be one.

And the remnant that remaineth of the curtains of the tent, the half curtain that remaineth, shall hang over the backside of the tabernacle.

And a cubit on the one side, and a cubit on the other side of that which remaineth in the length of the curtains of the tent, it shall hang over the sides of the tabernacle on this side and on that side, to cover it.

And thou shalt make a covering for the tent of rams' skins dyed red, and a covering above of badgers' skins.

 

Just to show how creative this type of rationalization which Christians/Mormons use is, I can do the same type of thing they find so easy to do and justify.

Exo 26:2-14 is a "typological parallel" and "foreshadowing" of God sending his servant Martha Stewart to instruct the world on the nuances and details of proper interior decorating.

 

Martha Stewart, the queen of decorating and craft work for the insides of houses, fulfilled Exo 26:2-14 by showing people how to precisely craft pretty curtains, doilies, cup coasters, flower pots, and other assorted trinkets for the insides of houses. Martha Stewart is a messenger from God and she must be doing God's work and preaching God's word.

 

Martha is a valid servant of the one true God because she fulfilled the prophecy which God outlined in Exo 26.

 

If this analogy seems ridiculous to you, I suggest you take a good, hard look at how the author of Matthew used the same procedure to manufacture a prophecy fulfillment for Jesus

 

I did not mean this as a prophecy for the Book of Mormon. I meant to show that apostasy does occur, even to a choice people, and that it can lead to a loss of truth, even important truths.

 

 

(this is in response to your first 2 points and a few of your later points. If you desire I could spend some time gathering the information relevant here I just do not have the time right now.)

 

Totally understand that, and I thank you for your time to answer our queries

 

Miracles are indeed signs which should accompany prophets, however they are not to be proof.

Yes they are, and even Jesus said so. Miracles by his disciples were just one of the proof that would prove what he said was true.

 

He also warns of false prophets performing great miracles to decieve even the elect. John saw the great beast perform a miracle.

 

Don't get me wrong, miracles are great things, its just that the nature and intent with which those miracles are performed should out weigh the granduer of the sign.

 

Skankboy, I derive my definitions from Mormon theology. We can use whatever term you are more comfortable or you feel is more compatible.

[Skankboy]

Skankboy, I derive my definitions from Mormon theology. We can use whatever term you are more comfortable or you feel is more compatible.

 

I can see where you are coming from, but I wonder if you would be willing to provide a reference of some kind so I be sure of where we stand in our mutual understandings of these terms.

 

As you said, predestination is an extremely unjust system. If you believe that somehow god can be omniscient and we have free will, I would love to see some Mormon sources that resolve this paradox.

 

Thanks,

[Who?]

Skankboy, I derive my definitions from Mormon theology. We can use whatever term you are more comfortable or you feel is more compatible.

 

I can see where you are coming from, but I wonder if you would be willing to provide a reference of some kind so I be sure of where we stand in our mutual understandings of these terms.

 

As you said, predestination is an extremely unjust system. If you believe that somehow god can be omniscient and we have free will, I would love to see some Mormon sources that resolve this paradox.

 

Thanks,

 

 

You could try this book. Its a PDF.

 

"The doctrine of absolute predestination, resulting in a nullification of man's free agency, has been advocated with various modifications by different sects. Nevertheless, such teachings are wholly unjustified by both the letter and the spirit of sacred writ. God's foreknowledge concerning the natures and capacities of His children enables Him to see the end of their earthly career even from the first; "Known to God are all his works from the beginning of the world." Many people have been led to regard this foreknowledge of God as a predestination whereby souls are designated for glory or condemnation even before their birth in the flesh, and irrespective of individual merit or demerit. This heretical doctrine seeks to rob Deity of mercy, justice, and love; it would make God appear capricious and selfish, directing and creating all things solely for His own glory, caring not for the suffering of His victims. How dreadful, how inconsistent is such an idea of God! It leads to the absurd conclusion that the mere knowledge of coming events must act as a determining influence in bringing about those occurrences. God's knowledge of spiritual and of human nature enables Him to conclude with certainty as to the actions of any of his children under given conditions; yet that knowledge is not of compelling force upon the creature"- James E. Talmage, Articles of Faith

 

"The true relationship of foreknowledge to foreordination is difficult to explain. God foretells, through his prophets, for instance, the division of the kingdom of Solomon, the captivity of Israel, and the very place of exile. Human reason would naturally conclude that if God saw that these things were to happen, then they had to happen, no matter what man would do. But history shows that they came about through the sins of the rulers and the people, and that the Lord warned them incessantly against these sins, as if anxious to prevent the predictions from coming true. The very disobedience to the warnings became the immediate justification for the punishment predicted. Could the people have repented and averted the calamities predicted and foreseen? If so, how could they have been foreseen, except conditionally? Perhaps the history of Jonah and Nineveh, by showing that repentance averts disaster even when predicted, offers the only satisfactory answer to that question." -J. M. Sjodahl Appendix of the same book. (emphasis mine.)

[Skankboy]

It leads to the absurd conclusion that the mere knowledge of coming events must act as a determining influence in bringing about those occurrences. God's knowledge of spiritual and of human nature enables Him to conclude with certainty as to the actions of any of his children under given conditions; yet that knowledge is not of compelling force upon the creature

 

Who?... This is basic logic. If the outcome of an event is KNOWN, it cannot occur any other way. Just because this author says it doesn't, doesn't mean it's so. In looking into this issue I checked multiple sights on logic problems and the paradox. Only one claimed there was no paradox and to be honest I found his argument unintelligible.

 

But let's put that aside for now, as I don't honestly believe I'm going to convince you otherwise.

 

Thanks for the information you provided, though I must say, it's a little sparse on the detail. But that's cool, it's a start.

 

Based on my readings, I had a couple of questions:

 

Do angels have "agency"?

Why is mortal existence conidered an advantage ("...Lucifer...[was] denied the privilege of recieving a mortal body..." pg 12)?

Was Judas "foreordained"?

Do you really believe a properly informed person would "choose captivity and death"? (pg 12)

When it says "The doctrine of foreordination appllies to all members of the Church" (pg 70), what exactly is meant by "the church".

 

At one point you mentioned that free will was the choice to NOT abide by god's will(paraphrase) here on earth. But in the info you provided they say that "Your presence on the earth confirms that you exercised your agency to follow Heavenly Father's plan" (pg 12). According to this, I already "exercised" my free will. And yet, I'm not a Christian of any kind...

 

 

I mean no offense, but to me, using "foreordained" is just semantics. The definitions (those used by the majority of people on this planet) of these two words are synominous.

 

Omniscence precludes the possiblity of free will (IMOHO). And yet, you can't let go of this description of god, because anything less wouldn't be "perfect" (a word I would also object to the use of to be honest), but by that same token, you see that predestination is an unjust system. To get out of this, you (mormon's) seem to have just decided that "foreordaination" is somehow different, but never clearly resolve the paradox.

 

The real problem here that anything "omni" assumes infinite properties. And there is no such thing. Outside of abstract concepts, infinity doesn't exist because we live in a finite universe.

 

IMOHO,

[Anakin]

Anakin, I am focusing on the need to fix the window because the window does need to be fixed. If death, physical and spiritual had not been overcome, all of us would be subject to those consequences to our actions. Under those consequences we cannot obtain a fulness of joy.

Dude, I don't know how else to explain it. Forgiveness is forgiveness and doesn't require

the slaughter of another person to achieve it. Especially if you're an all powerful being.

NBBTL made good points. I'm sorry you cannot forgive yourself and think the brutal killing

of another is required for that. It speaks volumes of your thinking that you "cannot obtain

a fulness of joy" without the horrible, useless murder of an innocent person.

 

I ask one last time. You indicated earlier that my son's murder would not be acceptable

because it would be against his will and would not fix the consequences. I agree, it wouldn't

fix anything. If my son was willing to be murdered so that I would forgive you, would

that be acceptable? Is this justice?

 

Could the resurrection (the conquering of physical death) be brought about if the Savior had not died? Or spiritual death be conquered by means outside of the Atonement? I do not know, however I trust that it is or at least was the best way, because that was the way we agreed upon.

Sure it could. Is your god omnipotent or not? Are you saying we agreed with god that He/She/It

must murder his own son (or kill himself) in order for god to forgive us for something we had no

control or say so about in the first place? Is that what you mean by "because that was the way

we agreed upon"? You know, when I was xtian I don't remember my opinion ever being a factor.

How is the slaughter of a third party the "best way" for an all powerful being? So an omnipotent,

omniscient, benevolent, and perfect being, just had to kill It's own child in order to forgive?

This was the "best way" for such a being? Very sick to say the least.

[SkepticOfBible]

I did not mean this as a prophecy for the Book of Mormon. I meant to show that apostasy does occur, even to a choice people, and that it can lead to a loss of truth, even important truths.

 

Which is exactly what the HS was supposed to be doing, prevent people from Apostasy

 

John 14:16-17,26

And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

 

John 16:13-14

Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

 

So what was HS doing for about 1800 years. What happened?Did the HS fail people to do it's job.

 

It's time to face the facts. The Holy Spirit as promised by Jesus in the Bible is a farce. Christians can claim they have the Holy Spirit all day long, but the facts betray them. While each faction of Christianity asserts to the world that they have the "truth" about God, they have nothing more than hot air.

The New Testament itself shows that the Holy Spirit doesn't work all the time as promised and that the prayer of Jesus failed

A Prayer Of Jesus That Failed

 

Yes they are, and even Jesus said so. Miracles by his disciples were just one of the proof that would prove what he said was true.

He also warns of false prophets performing great miracles to decieve even the elect. John saw the great beast perform a miracle.

Don't get me wrong, miracles are great things, its just that the nature and intent with which those miracles are performed should out weigh the granduer of the sign.

 

So you are saying that miracles can be performed in the name of Jesus by false representative?Well, then how is the true believer known from a false one?

 

 

Skankboy, I derive my definitions from Mormon theology. We can use whatever term you are more comfortable or you feel is more compatible.

[Skankboy]

Sure it could. Is your god omnipotent or not? Are you saying we agreed with god that He/She/It

must murder his own son (or kill himself) in order for god to forgive us for something we had no

control or say so about in the first place? Is that what you mean by "because that was the way

we agreed upon"? You know, when I was xtian I don't remember my opinion ever being a factor.

How is the slaughter of a third party the "best way" for an all powerful being? So an omnipotent,

omniscient, benevolent, and perfect being, just had to kill It's own child in order to forgive?

This was the "best way" for such a being? Very sick to say the least.

 

Awesome stuff Anakin! Again, this highlights the issue w/assuming anything can possess infinite properties. As soon as you put the word "omni" in front of a description you render it effectively useless.

 

Hopefully, Who? will be back. I must say the issues we are discussing are very much along the lines of why I left christianity in the first place and I would hate to see it just end like this...

 

IMOHO,

[Anakin]

Skankboy,

 

I'm sure Who? will return. Unfortunately from my end, I'm not sure what else to say.

I could reshuffle my words and make the same point and not make a dent. If someone

is dead set on the idea, that an "omni" whatever had no other way to reconcile itself

with it's own creation than to senselessly butcher it's own child, then what else could

be said? It really boils down to this:

I ask one last time. You indicated earlier that my son's murder would not be acceptable

because it would be against his will and would not fix the consequences. I agree, it wouldn't

fix anything. If my son was willing to be murdered so that I would forgive you, would

that be acceptable? Is this justice?

Who? I never really expected you to answer this. Unless you're a psychopath, there is only

one answer for this, and I don't think you're a psychopath. Just food for thought.

[Skankboy]

Unfortunately from my end, I'm not sure what else to say.

I could reshuffle my words and make the same point and not make a dent.

 

Agreed. It's hard to debate with someone who is CERTAIN about a subject. It seems to create a special form of bias that is VERY hard to get through. One of the hardest things I've had to overcome in my life is getting rid of the need to be absolutely certain about anything...

 

[Who?]

Im sorry my posts are so infrequent. Its only going to get worse, I start a 2nd job on monday. If you guys are willing to wait between posts I will still try to post.

 

 

Skeptic, Yes the HS is there to teach, guide and testify of truth. However he does not pre-empt our agency. Also with the death of the apostles the authority (Acts 8:13-17) to give that gift was lost.

 

You recognize true followers from false ones by what they teach.

 

Skankboy,

 

Angels do have agency.

 

Because while here in mortality, we gain a physical body, a chance to use our agency in gaining experience and attributes, ultimately becoming more like Him who sent us (according to what we choose to do with this opportunity).

 

Short and simple answer, yes. This is kind of difficult to answer. 'Informed' people can vary to a great degree. Do you mean those informed people who have seen it all, or those informed people who have a basic understanding of things, but still have much more to learn?

 

I believe that foreordination applies to all of us to some degree or another. (If that is what you were getting at in your question.)

 

 

I would have to see the context in which I was saying that. The exercise of agency described was the choice to follow Jesus Christ's plan instead of Lucifers. Before coming to this planet, we believe that we were all informed about what coming to earth would require of us. Jesus proposed that we would come and make choices with real consequences. Lucifer would remove our agency and save us all so long as we were willing to make him our God. The war fought in heaven (Rev. 12:7-9) was the war we actively fought to preserve our agency, and earn the priviledge of coming to this earth. I don't think I explained that very well, if you need further clarification I can in my next post (hopefully).

 

 

The interplay between foreknowledge and agency is a bit difficult to understand. Perhaps if you thought of it in finite terms. A weatherman is able to predict storms by understanding how each variable in the atmosphere effects the said storm, yet we do not accuse the weatherman of making those storms. I have a friend who has a tendency to choose Sprite over 7-Up. Given the conditions I may predict that my friend will choose sprite, that does not mean I made him choose sprite. It is the same with our Heavenly Father, only more specific. He knows us, he knows the conditions we are in and what we will choose given those conditions. That does not mean he made those choices for us, or forced us to do certain things.... I do not know if I can explain it any better than that. I can try if you need me to though.

 

 

Anakin, You are focusing only on forgiveness. Mercy without Justice would defeat the purpose of life in the same way Justice without Mercy would. Both must be in effect, in order for both of them to be in effect there has to be a third party mediating between them. There really is no other way.

[Lycorth]

Who?, your answer makes no sense. You speak of "agencies" and how we're sent to earth to learn "attributes" to become more "like Him" and so forth. Where in the Babble do you get clear proof that this is your god's intention? It takes a lot of stretching the meaning of the Babble as well as a lot of personal philosophizing to arrive at that.

 

Besides, unless I am mistaken, nowhere in Scripchah or in the bulk of Xian philosophical tradition is life on this earth considered a "privledge" or something to enjoy, but rather a series of tests and trials to determine our heavenly worth. Perhaps a better question to ask you is why does your god even require testing of his creatures if he knows how we'll all turn out anyway, and why concoct such a complicated plan of salvation that his foreknowledge must've told him few would follow and less would succeed at?