Miracle Claims

[zuluisgrate]

Hi all,

 

First post but long-time reader

 

I left the church a few years ago now after feeling the church's teachings do not match up with life as we know it - but I have always struggled with miracle claims where there doesn't appear to be an alternative explanation on offer, such as the following:

 

http://www.deloreswinder.com/about_delores.html

 

This is a testimony that doesn't appear to fall into any category such as placebo effects, hypnosis brought on by a revival meeting etc. The person at least appears genuine.

 

I was wondering what people made of such things. Maybe my "bullshit detector" isn't sensitive enough?! 

 

The trouble is the internet is awash with such claims, the above is just an example that troubled me in particular...

 

Thanks all

 

John

[Ellinas]

My immediate reaction is that I would want to see the medical records before accepting this claim.

 

My second reaction is that people do occasionally experience unexpected remission of severe illness - regardless of beliefs.  So what?

[zuluisgrate]

Firstly - the case was recorded in a medical journal - details on this site: http://www.is-there-a-god.info/life/tenhealings.shtml

 

Secondly - a long case of brittle bones doesn't seem like something would healing spontaneously - unless someone wants to tell me otherwise?

 

I suppose that the book could be considered dubious if somebody was skeptical enough - five of the ten healings documented are from Kathryn Kuhlman services, and some editions of the book bear the name of the Kuhlman foundation. Three years previously, a book had been published detailing a lack of cures as a result of her services - maybe a knee-jerk response to regain credibility? I don't know.

 

As I said though, this is just an example. I feel like I'm way too trusting of everything I see & read coming from Christian circles but it's not an easy habit to break

[florduh]

Welcome to Ex-C.

 

Kathryn Kuhlman was a charlatan. Benny Hinn learned the tricks of the trade directly from her as his mentor, including putting people who could stand up and walk into wheelchairs for dramatic effect on stage. Everything you are citing seems to somehow work back to Kuhlman; advertising/propaganda? I would trust nothing that is connected to her name.

 

Regarding healing miracles in general, don't forget there are original misdiagnoses and spontaneous remissions. Even doctors with a mind clouded by religion can have confirmation bias. Many patients have been miraculously healed while also receiving medical treatment. Some reports (and medical credentials) are simply fabricated. Miracles and healings are also claimed by those using other, different gods in their scams. And the biggie - why can't this miraculous god ever restore lost limbs?

[TheRedneckProfessor]

Firstly - the case was recorded in a medical journal - details on this site: http://www.is-there-a-god.info/life/tenhealings.shtml

 

Secondly - a long case of brittle bones doesn't seem like something would healing spontaneously - unless someone wants to tell me otherwise?

 

I suppose that the book could be considered dubious if somebody was skeptical enough - five of the ten healings documented are from Kathryn Kuhlman services, and some editions of the book bear the name of the Kuhlman foundation. Three years previously, a book had been published detailing a lack of cures as a result of her services - maybe a knee-jerk response to regain credibility? I don't know.

 

As I said though, this is just an example. I feel like I'm way too trusting of everything I see & read coming from Christian circles but it's not an easy habit to break

I glanced over the website you linked but failed to find the name of any peer-reviewed journals in which any of the research surrounding these "miracles" was published.  As a man trained in scientific discipline, I need to see peer-reviewed studies before accepting anything.  

 

Secondly, the website linked is clearly a religious website, with a clear religious agenda; this makes me question the veracity of these stories.

 

Thus, so far, I see no reason to put any stock in any of these miracle claims.

[amateur]

Even IF the occasional miracle cure is truly a miracle cure, what's the point?  Seriously?  

 

So a small handful of people claim to be cured of incurable problems, while millions go uncured.  People pray for healings all the time for themselves and for loved ones and in healing services.  Why is there such an incredibly low success rate?

 

What is the point of a god that would play with us like this?  The odds are worse than casinos and lotteries.  Millions are sincerely prayed for, and a tiny handful win the lottery and are cured.

 

So often the miracle cures are very vague, as in "My back was sore and now I suddenly feel better after prayers!"  Those claims are ridiculous and downright mocking, considering there are children dying of cancer.

[zuluisgrate]

Thanks for the feedback all. Most family / friends are still Christians so it's difficult to find somewhere to share some of these things!

 

I have to say, I do find the whole 'why does God hate amputees' argument very strong - it's a well-beaten drum for a reason. I've looked around the internet / YouTube for such things & it's simply not something that happens. Some Christians I've presented that argument to have wheeled out the typical responses - 'where would be the place for faith then' etc - even though they are quick to point to x-rays 'evidencing' miracles! This sort of reason never stopped the Jesus of the Bible either, where several 'external' conditions are healed.

 

I suppose I need to gain a more critical mindset. I was brought up to be so trusting of the church by my parents, & my personal experience of Christians is generally good - most notably my wife who I thankfully still have a fantastic relationship with despite my deconversion not too long after we got married. I live in the UK, where the church is not the big business it is in many parts of the world - although I could tell some leaders I was under really wished it was! My point is that Bible believers are usually genuine here, and so it's difficult for someone with my upbringing & experiences to imagine anyone setting up / being involved a 'ministry' that was dishonest or self-delusional.

 

Does anyone have any practical advice about how I can think more critically & ensure I'm not being taken in by an array of stories? One cannot disprove every case they read / watch on the whole internet! but I feel like I don't have any sort of filter or blocker against these things!

[florduh]

Does anyone have any practical advice about how I can think more critically & ensure I'm not being taken in by an array of stories?

 

A simple rule to start with is that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

 

If Kathryn Kuhlman claimed to have bought a Cadillac, someone else asserting this was true is really more evidence than I need. If she claims to have healed a serious illness, however, I want to see x-rays, MRIs, verified medical opinions, and proof that no other treatment than Kuhlman's magic was employed.

[RipVanWinkle]

"The person at least appears genuine."   zuluisgrate

 

Important lesson: The appearance of sincerity and honesty is the number 1 easiest trap to fall into when dealing with a con artist.

Number 2 is the person who is honest, but wrong. He/she doesn't even know he/she is a con artist.

 

Seriously, don't rely on somebody else's understanding. As you know this is exactly the opposite of what the bible says. The bible is wrong. You are responsible for your own beliefs and you can not delegate that responsibility to anyone. It is not isolated experiences of others whom you should rely on. Get a broad amount of  information from reading and, yes, other people, but make your own conclusion by use of your own reasoning.  Now that's what the fanatical Xtians don't want you to do.   bill

[♦ Fuego ♦]

I promoted and followed a missionary who claims to have raised the dead over 20 times, and seen every part of the body healed and grown back. I was taken in because he comes across so very basic and down-homey, and relates stories in a way that make them seem believable. His men also echoed his claims of miracles, and that was a big seller for me (though in retrospect, all cult members will do this for their leader). As a believer, he represented what I thought was the real deal. He spent his life working with dirt-poor Indians in the boonies of Mexico, doesn't wear suits or wear jewelry, admits to his own failures repeatedly, until he found a path of sold-out commitment to Jesus that allowed the power and presence of God to flow through him. He would show a picture of a little girl and describe how she was born without bones in her legs, and so on. In retrospect, it was just a picture of a girl with a story attached. There was never any proof.

 

Now that I'm on the outside looking in (thanks to catching him in a blatant lie), I am amazed at how much I believed on so little evidence. It made sense because I already believed the Bible, and what he said was completely biblical. Once the Bible lost its hold on me, all of this man's stories lost their power also. I could see him for what he is.

 

Don't trust anecdotes as evidence.

[FreeThinkerNZ]

 

Does anyone have any practical advice about how I can think more critically & ensure I'm not being taken in by an array of stories?

 

Welcome to ex-C, so glad you made it out of the cult!

 

You will get better at filtering BS the more you read, watch and learn.  Every miracle/BS claim you read/watch and think critically about is another step on the road of enlightenment.

 

Medicine and health care are pet interests of mine and I can tell you I never believe anything I read unless I see it in a peer reviewed scholarly journal (Pubmed is a good source), or it's generic patient guidance information on a reputable website such as a major HMO (US term - the NHS and BMJ websites in the UK would be a good example for you).  Another good UK source is the NICE guidelines website.  These are what I consider trustworthy sources on medical info, and you will never find magical miracles there.  They don't want to be sued, for starters.  Any "doctor" who would write a book about god "healing" people would be run out of town by the real doctors and probably prosecuted by their professional licensing body.  That story won't be repeated on a website promoting the book or god/xianity.

 

Here's another good resource for testing miracle claims, more of the so-called "complementary and alternative medicine" variety.  I use some "complementary" medicines myself (after thoroughly researching their claims and evidence) but you have to be so careful because this area is awash with claims, much like the god/miracles area.  This website is a great place to hone your general critical thinking skills:

http://www.quackwatch.org/index.html

 

Enjoy developing your filters!  You are well on the way.

[pratt]

not sure about the spinal cord lady with the miracle cure,,,,

 

as i mentioned before in other threads, i followed an old couple whose wife was diagnosed with cancer, and we went to many "miracle" healings sessions and such,,,, she died of cancer later,,,,,

 

miracle healing?

 

I have an old friend couple, whose wife's brother has half the brain taken out due to some virus/bacteria, and the family and church has been praying for full recovery, still bedridden and tube fed and whatever, and many still waiting for god to give a complete recovery, and still waiting,,,

 

miracle healing?

 

friend's wife was diagnosed with breast cancer, besides prayer by fellow church members, first thing he did was get the best oncologist and paid a bloody fortune for radio and chemo therapy, and he thanked god when the sessions were over,,,,, not sure if he thank the doctor,,,,

 

Don't fucking tell me stories about god miracle healing when i know people suffering from illness still....

[BundyJem]

I too struggle with this. And is especially at the front of my mind at present as a few months ago I drove a friend who felt lead to pray for a terminally ill friend... it was a 10 hour round trip plus the 3 hours we visited with this man and his wife.

He was told that by now (by easter) he would not be able to hold a conversation let alone walk and eat etc. And that he wouldn't be alive to see the year out. At present he is organising a 'praise god' fair day in celebration.... see he is singing in his band, he is skateboarding and doing numerous things that he was told he would never do again.... I have read the comments here and the ones that mentioned spontaneous remission is obviously the only way one could conclude.... other then 'miracle'? I am struggling with this because of it's close nature. I've met the guy. I'm close friends with the person who felt led to drive all that way to pray.

 

But then I think... what about everyone else... why does he get to be healed and not the next person.... I totally understand the christian answer to that... But it is not washing with me these days...

[AnonymousCoward]

 

 

These are what I consider trustworthy sources on medical info, and you will never find magical miracles there.  They don't want to be sued, for starters.  Any "doctor" who would write a book about god "healing" people would be run out of town by the real doctors and probably prosecuted by their professional licensing body.  That story won't be repeated on a website promoting the book or god/xianity.

 

And Christians will claim that this is bias against and suppression of clear evidence of medical miracles by the scientific community just like they did with intelligent design.

[FreeThinkerNZ]

 

 

 

These are what I consider trustworthy sources on medical info, and you will never find magical miracles there.  They don't want to be sued, for starters.  Any "doctor" who would write a book about god "healing" people would be run out of town by the real doctors and probably prosecuted by their professional licensing body.  That story won't be repeated on a website promoting the book or god/xianity.

 

And Christians will claim that this is bias against and suppression of clear evidence of medical miracles by the scientific community just like they did with intelligent design.

 

I call it protecting public safety and the good name of one's profession.  When a xian can produce a medically verifiable miraculous healing story and gets a Nobel Prize I might listen to them.

[zuluisgrate]

Thanks to everyone contributing, I really appreciate it

 

Freethinker, good point - I suppose I have been shying away from actual testimonies because I hate the panic that comes with wondering 'what if I'm wrong?' - but I took on some things head on last night which helped. I have to say, most healing stories that appear to stand up to initial scrutiny are promoted by those who seem to have a lot to lose financially. As I say, I'd never dream of doing anything like that to anyone & the thought that lies could just roll of someone's tongue like that seems incredulous to me, even though I know it happens!

 

William Davis, another good point - ultimately if I always go on other people's assessments I'll forever be in turmoil. I do need to learn to trust my own personal experience, which has invariably been disappointment in this area and certainly nothing that couldn't have taken place naturally. I could list numerous stories of disappointment here.

[FreeThinkerNZ]

What if you're wrong?  Richard Dawkins was once asked the same question:

 

[Darklady]

I too struggle with this. And is especially at the front of my mind at present as a few months ago I drove a friend who felt lead to pray for a terminally ill friend... it was a 10 hour round trip plus the 3 hours we visited with this man and his wife.

He was told that by now (by easter) he would not be able to hold a conversation let alone walk and eat etc. And that he wouldn't be alive to see the year out. At present he is organising a 'praise god' fair day in celebration.... see he is singing in his band, he is skateboarding and doing numerous things that he was told he would never do again.... I have read the comments here and the ones that mentioned spontaneous remission is obviously the only way one could conclude.... other then 'miracle'? I am struggling with this because of it's close nature. I've met the guy. I'm close friends with the person who felt led to drive all that way to pray.

 

But then I think... what about everyone else... why does he get to be healed and not the next person.... I totally understand the christian answer to that... But it is not washing with me these days...

 

My dad (83) was told he would be dead by easter,... hes still going to the pub on wednesdays nights to see his mates, ..living on his own and looking after himself,  no ones praying, no ones praising god..

the doctors just say  cancer isnt that easy to predict....

[owen652]

also, if someone tries to tell you that God doesn't heal amputees or do miracles all the time because that would interfere with our free will, i.e. we would not have any choice but to believe in God, just remind them that the Israelites saw plenty of miracles firsthand and yet they still chose to reject God. Even some of the angels in heaven chose to reject God. So sentient beings' firsthand knowledge of God's existence obviously has no connection to free will. 

 

Luckily though, like God himself, free will is an illusion. 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

 

 

 

These are what I consider trustworthy sources on medical info, and you will never find magical miracles there.  They don't want to be sued, for starters.  Any "doctor" who would write a book about god "healing" people would be run out of town by the real doctors and probably prosecuted by their professional licensing body.  That story won't be repeated on a website promoting the book or god/xianity.

 

And Christians will claim that this is bias against and suppression of clear evidence of medical miracles by the scientific community just like they did with intelligent design.

 

If christians want their claims to be taken seriously, they have the right to publish their studies in peer-reviewed journals and have their research tested for reproducability by the standards of scientific scrutiny.  Otherwise their claims are simply unsupported assertions, not facts.

[ExCBooster]

Not to mention that these claims are products of a changing cultural and technological environment. Read Christian sermons and literature concerning the ill and dying, from before modern medicine. There's a whole lot less "pray and be healed" and a whole lot more fatalism. The culture in general has changed immensely. Technologically, of course, back then before antibiotics and germ theory, you either died of diseases like typhoid fever, tuberculosis, cholera, or smallpox, or you didn't. Child mortality rates approached 50%. You read that right. Christianity had a very different role in this sort of environment. Fatalistic reliance on an all-wise and all-powerful God made a lot more sense than arrogantly and futilely praying for recovery. Being a good Christian wasn't about cheating death by prayer, but rather in dying well when you did die.

 

That's one of the many things that makes reading popular fiction (Sentimental Novels, mostly) from the 19th Century tough on a modern audience. We don't get it. Uncle Tom's Cabin, for example, was a blockbuster, and still one of the best selling books per capita of all time in the USA. It relies on the idea of a Good Christian Death and resignation to God's Plan for most of its force, which really doesn't translate to modern readers. Both Tom and Eva are exemplars of this sort of fatalism - they both suffer and die "well," uncomplainingly, piously (heroically, and Christian, for the time period) while we're likely to read it as being passive doormats.

 

What happened to this attitude? Modern medicine and science. Now that we have the ability to treat diseases that mowed down human lives like ripe wheat in the 19th Century (why Death has a scythe, natch), we expect that the outcome of being ill is to get better, not to die. Christianity had to change it's outlook, to reflect this new reality, and now people pray for the ill or injured. When it doesn't work, of course, they just fall back on the old fatalistic attitude - God's will, after all. And, yeah, this contradictory stance does cause quite some cognitive dissonance.

[MerryG]

The only place I know where anyone has been making a medically rigorous attempt to verify miraculous healings is the Lourdes Medical Bureau:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lourdes_Medical_Bureau

 

http://en.lourdes-france.org/deepen/cures-and-miracles

 

Over a century and a half, of all the millions of people who've made the pilgrimage to Lourdes seeking cures (dozens of whom claim each month to have been magically cured), a few dozen cases have been found to be "medically inexplicable." 

 

But these tend to fall into a small range of diseases and conditions that are known to be subject to spontaneous remissions, with or without prayer or pilgrimages. Nobody has ever re-grown a limb or had half a brain restored, even though such things should be easily within "god's" capabilities. Also, even with this more-or-less rigorous testing ground, there's reason to be suspicious of the claims. The Lourdes Medical Bureau is on the grounds of the sanctuary and under the control of the church, and medical personnel affiliated with it get badges that say credo (I believe). So even this effort can hardly be called unbiased.

 

I find that tiny handful or Lourdes cures to be fascinating -- but more for their potential scientific and psychological value than because "god" chose to cure some infinitesimal percentage of prayerful seekers who suffered from a limited range of conditions.

[MerryG]

Not to mention that these claims are products of a changing cultural and technological environment. Read Christian sermons and literature concerning the ill and dying, from before modern medicine. There's a whole lot less "pray and be healed" and a whole lot more fatalism. The culture in general has changed immensely. Technologically, of course, back then before antibiotics and germ theory, you either died of diseases like typhoid fever, tuberculosis, cholera, or smallpox, or you didn't. Child mortality rates approached 50%. You read that right. Christianity had a very different role in this sort of environment. Fatalistic reliance on an all-wise and all-powerful God made a lot more sense than arrogantly and futilely praying for recovery. Being a good Christian wasn't about cheating death by prayer, but rather in dying well when you did die.

 

That's one of the many things that makes reading popular fiction (Sentimental Novels, mostly) from the 19th Century tough on a modern audience. We don't get it. Uncle Tom's Cabin, for example, was a blockbuster, and still one of the best selling books per capita of all time in the USA. It relies on the idea of a Good Christian Death and resignation to God's Plan for most of its force, which really doesn't translate to modern readers. Both Tom and Eva are exemplars of this sort of fatalism - they both suffer and die "well," uncomplainingly, piously (heroically, and Christian, for the time period) while we're likely to read it as being passive doormats.

 

What happened to this attitude? Modern medicine and science. Now that we have the ability to treat diseases that mowed down human lives like ripe wheat in the 19th Century (why Death has a scythe, natch), we expect that the outcome of being ill is to get better, not to die. Christianity had to change it's outlook, to reflect this new reality, and now people pray for the ill or injured. When it doesn't work, of course, they just fall back on the old fatalistic attitude - God's will, after all. And, yeah, this contradictory stance does cause quite some cognitive dissonance.

 

What Ex-C Booster said. Sure, there have been claims of miraculous healings going back to the beginning of recorded history. Telling people that you (or your organization) can perform miracles is an excellent means of controlling the naive, gullible, or desperate. So of course prophets, gurus, and shamans make such claims and always have. But it's no coincidence that the mass passion for miracle cures came along just as science began to develop genuine cures and genuinely helpful preventatives and treatments for diseases.

 

It's as if god-pushers are desperate to compete, to show they're "better" than science. It's as if desperate people are saying, "Science doesn't move fast enough!" And -- as always in human history -- it's about charlatans fooling the rubes in order to get more money and power.

[Gamecock1973]

To me the clincher about miracles is that despite Xtians claiming they are true (I love the stories they hear 2nd, 3rd, or 44th hand but you never meet the person who it happened to or any REAL witnesses), if there were actually REAL miracles or healings that were able to be documented, EVERYONE would hear about them.  A 4 year old has a very lame (and probably coached) near-death experience and it's a New York Times best-selling book and Hollywood movie!  Xtians are DYING FOR VALIDATION!  They grasp onto ANYTHING they can!  There is no shortage of news outlets that would be putting such evidence out there of miracles if they were really happening (hello, fox news!).  Hell, Jesus on toast, an "angel" priest at a car accident, and the stupid "Toronto blessing" got national news coverage.  

 

If Biblical-like miracles were REALLY happening, Xtians would be shouting it from the rooftops.  It wouldn't be only on one website of a Xtian ministry.  Period.

 

A typical example was this week on the Dogma Debate podcast, David Smalley debated a Xtian politician from Pennsylvania who threw out the "fact" that god is doing miracles all the time!  His sister had been to China and heard about someone being raised from the dead and that "happens all the time" in China.  Bullshit.  I live in China and know some Xtians.  This has not happened.  Chinese people are MASSIVELY superstitious.  The internet in China is ALIVE with all sorts of stupid stuff the government cannot control.  If someone was raised from the dead or any other miracle, the Chinese would be jumping on that bandwagon.   It's just one of those fanciful stories from "the mission field" people love to tell that is pure fantasy.  Oh, and there is no massive revival in China either.  I can't tell you how many times I heard there were millions and millions coming to Christ in the underground church in China when i was in missions a decade ago.  Umm, no they weren't and no they aren't.  Xtians are notorious for repeating lies they REALLY, REALLY, REALLY want to believe are true.

[zuluisgrate]

So what would people speculate about this specific case then?

 

I ask this because it's a particular one that has me stumped - no one really seems to have an answer to it (apart from the fundamentalists, of course). I have to say, this has been really troubling to my new belief system that there must be a natural explanation. As much as I understand & agree with regarding the above points, the answers don't really seem to be there to get regarding this specific case - which is something I don't cope with very well!

 

Am I just being taken in by lies, or is there something else going on? If it is a lie, why the person still be talking about it well into old age?