The Holy Spirit, Part Deux

[Gamecock1973]

So, it seems the xtian response to why pastors/teachers/theologians are necessary when they have the HS dwelling within them with the promise to "guide them into all truth," is that they are still broken, sinful, and an unfinished work and the HS radio frequency is full of static...ummmm, yeah.

 

So a follow-up philosophical question.  As part of the standard evangelical platform of evangelism, preachers often expound on the fact that God is holy- holy, holy, holy!  He is so pure and holy that he cannot abide sin in his presence in heaven.(Despite the fact Satan saunters into the heavenly throne room in Job- oops!).  Because sinful people cannot be in the intimate presence of God in heaven, he MUST have hell for those who choose sin rather than being covered by the blood of jeebus, blah, blah, blah.  We've heard it all before.

 

My question is this: If God is so holy that he cannot abide sin in his presence in heaven, how is it such disgusting, and continually sinful people can be "the temple of the holy spirit?"  I mean, look at all the precautions the old testament temple had for when the holy presence of god filled it- the high priest even had a rope tied to him so his dead body could be pulled out if he was not pure enough in the holy of holies.  Yet the holy spirit is fine dwelling in these physical temples in which people are masturbating and doing all sorts of other sinful things?  Shouldn't people be falling over dead all the time like the priest who simply touched the ark of the covenant when it was falling to the ground, or Ananias and Sapphira in the book of Acts who grieved the holy spirit by holding back some of THEIR income from the socialistic Jerusalem church (for the Xtians out there looking for a new testament reference!).  Where is the urgency of the holiness of god?  Does the theology of the holy spirit dwelling in believers make any sense at all?  If this member of the trinity (equal with god the father, remember) can literally cohabitate with sin and look the other way (magically pretending he doesn't see it because of the blood!), how offended can god REALLY be with sin?

 

Of course it doesn't make sense.  It logically follows that if someone were to be a temple of the holy spirit, they would be PURIFIED, and that they would no longer continue to sin.  1 John 3 is the only place that actually makes this connection (one of the big failed promises that led to my de-conversion).  But of course, this is contradicted by Paul and Xtians completely ignore this untenable part of the bible, holding onto the claim of being "forgiven sinners" (i.e. behaving EXACTLY the same as the rest of us, except having the superior feeling of being pure by imaginary decree).  

[Ravenstar]

They can't accept their own imperfections…and have created an entire mythos and dogma surrounding it… but, it's a convoluted psychological projection. Simple… as long as 'evil' and 'holiness' are concept that are out there somewhere they never really have to embrace their humanity. Everything is polarized and they can't see the tray areas… the diversity of humanity.

 

In paganism it is strongly suggested to seek and accept one's dark side, as it is believed until one does it will always have power over you. This is the origins of the shamans' initiation ritual… a trial, death and a rebirth.. which is sadly echoed in the story of Jesus, and poorly understood by christians.

 

I think it's the diversity, the variety… the capacity for evil and for love, the capacity to overcome our shortcomings, to find creative solutions that makes us who we are… it is our strength. The christians would have a world of black and white. I want mine in technicolor!

 

Kodachrome by Paul Simon is a good song for this.

[AJG]

 

 

My question is this: If God is so holy that he cannot abide sin in his presence in heaven, how is it such disgusting, and continually sinful people can be "the temple of the holy spirit?"

 

 

Because Christians aren't perfect; they're just forgiven!  

[Guest end3]

This appears on the outside to be a good question IMO. So let me ask you this, if Jesus became sin, what are the ramifications of this?

[♦ ficino ♦]

Kodachrome by Paul Simon is a good song for this.

Never thought of that!

[TheRedneckProfessor]

I've always been fascinated by the vision in Isaiah 6 where even the holy angels, who have never known sin, or been outside of the presence of god, still had to cover their faces with their wings in order not to look upon god's holiness.  The same book proclaims that all of our righteousness is as filthy rags.

 

That aside, the closest thing I ever heard to an explanation was that the blood of jesus covered our sins so that the holy spirit would not look upon them.  It's not really an explanation, though, is it?  An omniscient god would still know they're there; and a holy god would still be offended.  So which is god: omniscient or holy?

[TheRedneckProfessor]

This appears on the outside to be a good question IMO. So let me ask you this, if Jesus became sin, what are the ramifications of this?

One ramification would be that if I ask jesus into my heart, then I also invite sin into my heart.

[bornagainathiest]

This appears on the outside to be a good question IMO. So let me ask you this, if Jesus became sin, what are the ramifications of this?

 

What are the ramifications?

 

Well, it means that, "...all things are possible with God." (Mark 10:27).

Which means that God can do (at will) that which is impossible.  Even things which seem to be impossible for him to do, he can do.  He can even violate his own nature.  Which, by definition, is impossible.  But Jesus (who is god) says that all things are possible.  ALL includes the impossible things.   So even those things which seem impossible for God to do or be... are possible.

 

It's just a matter of choice on his part.

So, while he spent the whole of the OT avoiding any contact with sin, in the NT he chose to become sin.  Since god isn't bound by his own nature (that would be a limitation and NOTHING is impossible for him) he needn't have been incarnated as a human being to become a sin sacrifice for the whole world. The need for a sin sacrifice is a limitation, but if nothing is impossible for god, then there's no absolute need for a sin sacrifice, is there?

 

Also, even if we grant that god really, really wanted to become a sin sacrifice, he could have chosen to do this... at any time.  

Time is a limitation on god and since nothing is impossible for him, he therefore has no limitations. Therefore time is no limitation on god. He could have decided to become a sin sacrifice in the time of king David.  Or in the time of Moses.  Or in the time of Noah.  So why kill all but 8 of the human race if he could have just sacrificed himself to himself at any time of his choosing?  If nothing is impossible for god, what stopped him from becoming a sin sacrifice immediately after Adam and Eve first sinned?

 

God could even have created only those people who he foreknew would become Christians, before he created time and space and the whole universe.  If there's nothing that's impossible for him, why didn't he take any of these other options?

 

Your thoughts, End?

[TheRedneckProfessor]

^^^Hey, that just made me realize that god could have incarnated himself as one of the goats sacrificed in the temple, obviating the virgin birth, the sermon on the mount, the crucifixion, and the resurrection.  Truly mysterious ways!

[♦ ficino ♦]

I read somewhere that an argument among medieval theologians was, could the 2nd person of the Trinity have been incarnated as a cucumber?

 

Cucumber, yeah... pumpkin, I think that was reserved for Cinderella's coach.

[midniterider]

They can't accept their own imperfections…and have created an entire mythos and dogma surrounding it… but, it's a convoluted psychological projection. Simple… as long as 'evil' and 'holiness' are concept that are out there somewhere they never really have to embrace their humanity. Everything is polarized and they can't see the tray areas… the diversity of humanity.

 

In paganism it is strongly suggested to seek and accept one's dark side, as it is believed until one does it will always have power over you. This is the origins of the shamans' initiation ritual… a trial, death and a rebirth.. which is sadly echoed in the story of Jesus, and poorly understood by christians.

 

I think it's the diversity, the variety… the capacity for evil and for love, the capacity to overcome our shortcomings, to find creative solutions that makes us who we are… it is our strength. The christians would have a world of black and white. I want mine in technicolor!

 

Kodachrome by Paul Simon is a good song for this.

 

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/money/media/2009-06-22-kodachrome_N.htm

[rach]

I'm one of those people that gets abused a lot in life.  Bullied I mean.  I can tell you by experience that abuse by god-fearing, Jesus-praising, "Holy-spirit indwelt" Christians is the harshest, scariest, most merciless, most diabolical abuse in the world (and I know Frederick Douglass would agree with me, he said, the worst slave master is a religious one).  Think of that scene from the movie Carrie where super-Christian Margaret (Carries' mum) stabs Carrie in the back whilst saying the Lord's Prayer.  The Holy Spirit is supposed to be the spirit of violent Yahweh himself, so it all makes sense.  As for me, I had a great spirit inside all along, if only I had known that, I never needed to "repent", I just needed to be myself, and I would not like to ever lobotomize my spirit again in favour of being filled up with this decidedly un-holy spirit.  My a-mum is spirit filled.  A nice lady generally but I have rarely ever seen a rage like hers, when she gets angry. 

[Guest afireinside]

I agree rach. I put a lot of faith in "spirit led" people and they messed my head up in a major way. They used to pass on messages from God that were far from encouraging. It used to be an empty, hollow feeling when you got a word or revelation from God through them, to this day I get angry thinking about the confusion and fear it caused

[ChristianGuy1000]

Hey,

 

This is an intresting topic - I will share my thoughts.

 

From my Understanding I have no idea what the Holy Spirit is - I have been told its a Person / God and an Invisible force.

 

What its supposed to do is to drive Christians to become more Holy and God Like however we all know that Christians are far from that.

 

I found that when I read the Bible it left me at odds with the 'Majority' Christian approach,  I seen verses where I was told to help those unfortunate and befrend the outcast of society - This ultimately got me shunned by the Christian's I knew because I was dealing with 'Those People'.

 

When I joined Bible Study groups at University I found that the conclusions I came to in a passage were not the same as those that most others came up with.  I found their arguements weak - But ultimately this lead to me who was a young Christian at the time to fall into dispair - Was I doing it wrong?

 

I found Christianity extremely difficult for a persons self estem.  You think that when you first become a Christian you have all these new friends.  They all want to know about you etc..  Eventually that dies off and your left worse off than you started,  Why?  Because you think youve done something wrong!

 

I found I was the only one who truely had a heart for the 'Sinners' where as the rest of the Christians did not get tied up with that.  They showed up at the events but kept away from anyone who would question their beliefs.  I was the person who went to the strangers and sides with them at times when their point for not believing was valid!

 

I find that either the Holy Spirit does not exist today or alot of Christians 'Think' there saved when actually there not.  Just something does not add up - E.g. how do you reconcile all the Contridictions in the Bible when the Holy Spirit surely would never allow that to happen.

[Ravenstar]

You are correct, it does not add up. The simplest explanation is usually the right one - it does not exist.

 

ding ding ding!!!!   You win a prize for logic!  

[TheRedneckProfessor]

I'm one of those people that gets abused a lot in life.  Bullied I mean.  I can tell you by experience that abuse by god-fearing, Jesus-praising, "Holy-spirit indwelt" Christians is the harshest, scariest, most merciless, most diabolical abuse in the world (and I know Frederick Douglass would agree with me, he said, the worst slave master is a religious one).  Think of that scene from the movie Carrie where super-Christian Margaret (Carries' mum) stabs Carrie in the back whilst saying the Lord's Prayer.  The Holy Spirit is supposed to be the spirit of violent Yahweh himself, so it all makes sense.  As for me, I had a great spirit inside all along, if only I had known that, I never needed to "repent", I just needed to be myself, and I would not like to ever lobotomize my spirit again in favour of being filled up with this decidedly un-holy spirit.  My a-mum is spirit filled.  A nice lady generally but I have rarely ever seen a rage like hers, when she gets angry. 

It has been my experience that when a christian starts a conversation by saying "The holy spirit has given me a message for you," that is basically that christian's way of granting him/herself carte blanche to say whatever the hell they feel like saying to you, whether it's hurtful or not.  It's kind of like the Southerner who says, "Bless your heart"; only a lot more serious. 

[AJG]

 

 

It has been my experience that when a christian starts a conversation by saying "The holy spirit has given me a message for you," that is basically that christian's way of granting him/herself carte blanche to say whatever the hell they feel like saying to you, whether it's hurtful or not.  It's kind of like the Southerner who says, "Bless your heart"; only a lot more serious. 

 

Yep.  I did this many times as a Christian because I believed I had the gift of prophecy.  I alienated a lot of friends as a result.  I was an arrogant asshole for much of my life.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

 

 

 

It has been my experience that when a christian starts a conversation by saying "The holy spirit has given me a message for you," that is basically that christian's way of granting him/herself carte blanche to say whatever the hell they feel like saying to you, whether it's hurtful or not.  It's kind of like the Southerner who says, "Bless your heart"; only a lot more serious. 

 

Yep.  I did this many times as a Christian because I believed I had the gift of prophecy.  I alienated a lot of friends as a result.  I was an arrogant asshole for much of my life.

 

A fellow prophet!  If I had a dollar for every person I drove away with my "prophecies" I'd be able to buy my way into heaven; but being the cheap bastard I am, I'd probably settle for hell, anyway.  The cost of living is lower there, as are the taxes. 

[themonkeyman]

 

I'm one of those people that gets abused a lot in life.  Bullied I mean.  I can tell you by experience that abuse by god-fearing, Jesus-praising, "Holy-spirit indwelt" Christians is the harshest, scariest, most merciless, most diabolical abuse in the world (and I know Frederick Douglass would agree with me, he said, the worst slave master is a religious one).  Think of that scene from the movie Carrie where super-Christian Margaret (Carries' mum) stabs Carrie in the back whilst saying the Lord's Prayer.  The Holy Spirit is supposed to be the spirit of violent Yahweh himself, so it all makes sense.  As for me, I had a great spirit inside all along, if only I had known that, I never needed to "repent", I just needed to be myself, and I would not like to ever lobotomize my spirit again in favour of being filled up with this decidedly un-holy spirit.  My a-mum is spirit filled.  A nice lady generally but I have rarely ever seen a rage like hers, when she gets angry. 

It has been my experience that when a christian starts a conversation by saying "The holy spirit has given me a message for you," that is basically that christian's way of granting him/herself carte blanche to say whatever the hell they feel like saying to you, whether it's hurtful or not.  It's kind of like the Southerner who says, "Bless your heart"; only a lot more serious. 

 

 

You are so right on that one - You have no idea how much it damages a young Christians walk when you hear that the Holy Spirit throws you down via another Christian.  Now given the Bible said the Holy Spirit was love etc..  I must profess that these Christians are obviously duche bags.

 

Its a Christian way of being a wanker in the nicest most 'caring' way possible.

 

Its the same as saying - I prayed for your soul for guidance! like wtf

[TheRedneckProfessor]

 

 

I'm one of those people that gets abused a lot in life.  Bullied I mean.  I can tell you by experience that abuse by god-fearing, Jesus-praising, "Holy-spirit indwelt" Christians is the harshest, scariest, most merciless, most diabolical abuse in the world (and I know Frederick Douglass would agree with me, he said, the worst slave master is a religious one).  Think of that scene from the movie Carrie where super-Christian Margaret (Carries' mum) stabs Carrie in the back whilst saying the Lord's Prayer.  The Holy Spirit is supposed to be the spirit of violent Yahweh himself, so it all makes sense.  As for me, I had a great spirit inside all along, if only I had known that, I never needed to "repent", I just needed to be myself, and I would not like to ever lobotomize my spirit again in favour of being filled up with this decidedly un-holy spirit.  My a-mum is spirit filled.  A nice lady generally but I have rarely ever seen a rage like hers, when she gets angry. 

It has been my experience that when a christian starts a conversation by saying "The holy spirit has given me a message for you," that is basically that christian's way of granting him/herself carte blanche to say whatever the hell they feel like saying to you, whether it's hurtful or not.  It's kind of like the Southerner who says, "Bless your heart"; only a lot more serious. 

 

 

You are so right on that one - You have no idea how much it damages a young Christians walk when you hear that the Holy Spirit throws you down via another Christian.  Now given the Bible said the Holy Spirit was love etc..  I must profess that these Christians are obviously duche bags.

 

Its a Christian way of being a wanker in the nicest most 'caring' way possible.

 

Its the same as saying - I prayed for your soul for guidance! like wtf

 

"I say this in love, so I hope you can receive it in love..."  Translation: get out your burn cream and get ready to apply it liberally.

[AJG]

 

 

 

I'm one of those people that gets abused a lot in life.  Bullied I mean.  I can tell you by experience that abuse by god-fearing, Jesus-praising, "Holy-spirit indwelt" Christians is the harshest, scariest, most merciless, most diabolical abuse in the world (and I know Frederick Douglass would agree with me, he said, the worst slave master is a religious one).  Think of that scene from the movie Carrie where super-Christian Margaret (Carries' mum) stabs Carrie in the back whilst saying the Lord's Prayer.  The Holy Spirit is supposed to be the spirit of violent Yahweh himself, so it all makes sense.  As for me, I had a great spirit inside all along, if only I had known that, I never needed to "repent", I just needed to be myself, and I would not like to ever lobotomize my spirit again in favour of being filled up with this decidedly un-holy spirit.  My a-mum is spirit filled.  A nice lady generally but I have rarely ever seen a rage like hers, when she gets angry. 

It has been my experience that when a christian starts a conversation by saying "The holy spirit has given me a message for you," that is basically that christian's way of granting him/herself carte blanche to say whatever the hell they feel like saying to you, whether it's hurtful or not.  It's kind of like the Southerner who says, "Bless your heart"; only a lot more serious. 

 

 

You are so right on that one - You have no idea how much it damages a young Christians walk when you hear that the Holy Spirit throws you down via another Christian.  Now given the Bible said the Holy Spirit was love etc..  I must profess that these Christians are obviously duche bags.

 

Its a Christian way of being a wanker in the nicest most 'caring' way possible.

 

Its the same as saying - I prayed for your soul for guidance! like wtf

 

"I say this in love, so I hope you can receive it in love..."  Translation: get out your burn cream and get ready to apply it liberally.

 

 

You pissed me off so...  I mean, God has given me a word...!

[Guest afireinside]

It's sinister emotional abuse, I hate these people who impose God guilt onto naive believers. It scars, it's spiritual molestation.

[seven77]

As part of the standard evangelical platform of evangelism, preachers often expound on the fact that God is holy- holy, holy, holy!  He is so pure and holy that he cannot abide sin in his presence in heaven.(Despite the fact Satan saunters into the heavenly throne room in Job- oops!).  Because sinful people cannot be in the intimate presence of God in heaven, he MUST have hell for those who choose sin rather than being covered by the blood of jeebus, blah, blah, blah.  We've heard it all before.

 

My question is this: If God is so holy that he cannot abide sin in his presence in heaven, how is it such disgusting, and continually sinful people can be "the temple of the holy spirit?"

 

 

From what I understand, Satan was once an angel. For all we know, Satan is still an angel. A rebellious angelic being who refused to bow down to Yahweh's decree to worship his claymen, yada yada and so on. Cast from heaven, blah blah blah.

 

Supposing that Satan was/is an angel, he would know no sin. Sin is nothing more than breaking the divine laws, transgressing God's rules for man as given in his holy word. If those laws were never given to you, then they do not pertain to you. And so it goes for angels, who are not men and are not bound by the laws that God gave to men. Angels know no sin, as they are not contained within fleshly bodies and have not emotions like humans. How could they? They, like God, are not bound by time nor place. How can they know shame or guilt or lust or any of the things that cause us to sin? Angels are passionless beings, imho, because they know not urgency. They will live forever and they know no pain, no suffering, no love, no hate.

 

Satan is not the embodiment of sin; he is merely God's lackey who is in charge of hell. That is what I believe. As an angel, Satan would be free to go to heaven and be in God's presence as seen in Job.

 

I was not taught that there must be a hell for those who choose sin, and so on. My former church taught the doctrine of hell as eternal separation from God. This doctrine is much more palatable to those who want warm bodies in the seats paying their tithes on a regular basis.

 

The temple of the holy spirit is just another way of saying "deny your human nature so you can obtain rewards in the afterlife". Dwelling in the temple of the holy spirit requires a certain amount of self-delusion that only a few can really master. Usually it means shutting all emotions off and living this narrow, regimented life while proclaiming that you are "walking in the truth" or "leading a spirit-filled life."

 

The holy spirit lives in no one because there is no such thing. The holy spirit is merely a comforting thought that believers cling to in order to validate their extreme hollow rigidity and their intolerance of others. Having the holy spirit within you seems exclusive and awesome. The other sheep start bleating and soon enough, there's a hallelujah chorus happening! 

[themonkeyman]

What I never understood is how God who is somehow sinless managed to have even angels supposidly turn against him,  Surely God is not that powerful if his created beings almost attempted to overthrow him, surely he would know this was going to happen?  So why condemn angels to the lake of fire when they did not have a choice to exist or not?

 

The temple of the Holy Spirit basically says that you have to live a life of servitude in this life so that when we die you also continue that servitude into eternity.  The problem I have with this is the fact that if an Angel can fall from being in the very presence of God - What is to stop God casting any one of us out if we decide one day we are sick of kissing his ass.

 

The most interesting thing is the war on heaven was a war!  If God was that powerful - Why goto war he could just will them into non existence?

[TheRedneckProfessor]

 

What I never understood is how God who is somehow sinless managed to have even angels supposidly turn against him,  Surely God is not that powerful if his created beings almost attempted to overthrow him, surely he would know this was going to happen?  So why condemn angels to the lake of fire when they did not have a choice to exist or not?

 

The temple of the Holy Spirit basically says that you have to live a life of servitude in this life so that when we die you also continue that servitude into eternity.  The problem I have with this is the fact that if an Angel can fall from being in the very presence of God - What is to stop God casting any one of us out if we decide one day we are sick of kissing his ass.

 

The most interesting thing is the war on heaven was a war!  If God was that powerful - Why goto war he could just will them into non existence?

 

Here's what I never understood:  god created humans so that he would have beings that were capable of having free will and would willingly choose to have a relationship with him.  But the fact that Lucifer and 1/3 of the angels were capable of rebelling against god demonstrates that god already had beings that were capable of having free will and could choose to be in a relationship with him or not.  So, now we're back to square one: why did god create people?