The Solid Sky

[TrueFreedom]

James McGrath shared a wonderful list of ancient interpretations of the biblical firmament:

 

“Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, the middle layer of water solidified,and the nether heavens and the uppermost heavens were formed. Rab said: [God's] handiwork [the heavens] was in fluid form, and on the second day it congealed; thus Let there be a firmament means ‘Let the firmament be made strong*. R. Judah b. R. Simon said: Let a lining be made for the firmament, as you read, And they did beat the gold into thin plates…R. Simon said: The fire came forth from above and burnished the face of the firmament.”
- Gen. Rab. 4:2

“R. Phinehas said in R. Oshaya’s name: As there is a void between the earth and the firmament, so is there a void between the firmament and the upper waters, as it is written, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, meaning, midway between them. R. Tanhuma said: I will state the proof. If it said, And God made the firmament, and He divided between the waters . . . which are upon the firmament, I would say that the water lies directly upon the firmament itself.”
- Gen. Rab. 4:3

“…when they had built the tower to the height of four hundred and sixty-three cubits. And they took a gimlet, and sought to pierce the heaven, saying, Let us see (whether) the heaven is made of clay, or of brass, or of iron.” – 3 Apoc. Bar. 7

“But after that he makes the firmament, that is, the corporeal heaven. For every corporeal object is, without doubt, firm and solid; and it is this which “divides the water which is above heaven from the water which is below heaven.” – Origin. Homily on Genesis

“If the nature of the elements is taken into consideration, how it is possible for the firmament to be stable between the waters? The one is liquid, the other solid; one is active, the other, passive.” – Ambrose. Hexameron, BkII Ch 2.48

“…’And he called the firmament, heaven.’ In a general way, He would seem to have said above that heaven was made in the beginning so as to take in the entire fabric of celestial creation, and that here the specific solidity of this exterior firmament is meant.” – Ibid. 2.62

“This firmament cannot be broken, you see, without a noise. It also is called a firmament because it is not weak nor without resistance…the firmament is called because of its firmness or because it has been made firm by divine power,..”
- Ibid. 2.62

“They must certainly bear in mind that the term “firmament” does not compel us to imagine a stationary heaven: we may understand this name as given to indicate not that it is motionless but that it is solid and that it constitutes an impassable boundary between the waters above and the waters below.”
- Augustine. The Literal Meaning of Genesis, BkII Ch.10

 

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/exploringourmatrix/2014/04/the-solid-sky-2.html

 

 

If you know of others, please share them.

 

[Sexton Blake]

The god of the first five books of the bible clearly lives in the clouds above us, and that is where Jesus went when he rose up into the sky.

 

The creation story in Genesis heavily borrowed from Egyptian mythology. The jews knew tgheir mythology because they worked in Egypt in lean times and were never slaves there as in the Moses myth.

 

The firmament from the waters which divided the waters was the mountain rising from out of the Nile in Egyptian mythology, with waters above and below it. And so on. The details are in a book which compares both myths, which I have at home, 1200 miles away.

 

I don't know how anyone who knows any astronomy can believe in any religion; as if a god could make a whole universe with untold trillions of trillions of planets and trillions of races and only care about this one planet.

[RipVanWinkle]

"They must certainly bear in mind that the term “firmament” does not compel us to imagine a stationary heaven: we may understand this name as given to indicate not that it is motionless but that it is solid and that it constitutes an impassable boundary between the waters above and the waters below.”

- Augustine. The Literal Meaning of Genesis, BkII Ch.10

 

Augustine should have spent his whole life in sexual debauchery rather than only the first 20 or so years. He would have done much less harm to future generations.   bill

[TrueFreedom]

"They must certainly bear in mind that the term “firmament” does not compel us to imagine a stationary heaven: we may understand this name as given to indicate not that it is motionless but that it is solid and that it constitutes an impassable boundary between the waters above and the waters below.”

- Augustine. The Literal Meaning of Genesis, BkII Ch.10

 

Augustine should have spent his whole life in sexual debauchery rather than only the first 20 or so years. He would have done much less harm to future generations.   bill

Great quote!  Uh, St. Augustine, I think that we might have passed your impassable boundary.  *wink*

[par4dcourse]

h

I don't know how anyone who knows any astronomy can believe in any religion; as if a god could make a whole universe with untold trillions of trillions of planets and trillions of races and only care about this one planet.

Not only does he care, he is downright fanatical about foreskins and dietary restrictions.

[Bhim]

I don't know how anyone who knows any astronomy can believe in any religion; as if a god could make a whole universe with untold trillions of trillions of planets and trillions of races and only care about this one planet.

Well I can't speak for other astronomers, but I solve any potential problem by practicing my religion without actually believing in it. That said, Hinduism (and indeed every religion I know of besides Christianity) does not require any God to care more about us than any other races he may have created. God isn't the problem, Jesus is. If God has one son whom he sent to die here, them that makes humanity special...which many astronomers would have a problem with.

 

Let's lay the blame where it belongs. I'm all for criticisms of religions, but it's Jesus who poisons religion.

[RogueScholar]

I don't Bhim, after living in Afghanistan, I think there are other sky daddy like religions that are not overwhelmingly interested in Jesus, but are capable of producing monsters all the same.

[DoubtingNate]

 

h

I don't know how anyone who knows any astronomy can believe in any religion; as if a god could make a whole universe with untold trillions of trillions of planets and trillions of races and only care about this one planet.

Not only does he care, he is downright fanatical about foreskins and dietary restrictions.

 

 

Foreskins make awesome war trophies too!  See: 1 Samuel 18:27.

[Ravenstar]

The god of the first five books of the bible clearly lives in the clouds above us, and that is where Jesus went when he rose up into the sky.

 

The creation story in Genesis heavily borrowed from Egyptian mythology. The jews knew tgheir mythology because they worked in Egypt in lean times and were never slaves there as in the Moses myth.

 

The firmament from the waters which divided the waters was the mountain rising from out of the Nile in Egyptian mythology, with waters above and below it. And so on. The details are in a book which compares both myths, which I have at home, 1200 miles away.

 

I don't know how anyone who knows any astronomy can believe in any religion; as if a god could make a whole universe with untold trillions of trillions of planets and trillions of races and only care about this one planet.

ummm… no. Much of Genesis was borrowed from the Sumerians/Babylonians.. the Enuma Elish. (almost word for word in some areas) It predates the Egyptians - but not by much. The Egyptians thought we became stars, or alternatively, after death went to a land in the west called The Field of Bulrushes…

 

NUT - the goddess - held up the sky - she is seen also as a ladder which Osiris uses to climb to the heavens. Tefnut and Shu are her parents. Geb, the earth god is her consort. (notice this is reversed from most mythologies where the sky is a father god and the earth is the mother goddess) Horus was also a sky god - which is why he is depicted as a falcon. Ra was the solar disk, or sun god.

 

They thought the earth was surrounded by a celestial river, probably describing in the milky way, which had to be crossed in order to get to their 'heaven'.

 

The Hebrews were exposed to Babylonian mythology (origins, flood), Persian mythology (especially the dualism of Zoroastrianism) and Egyptian mythology (judgement).. add those to their Canaanite roots (El, Ba'al, etc..) and you have Judaism. That's my hypothesis. anyway.

[DoubtingNate]

The Hebrews were exposed to Babylonian mythology (origins, flood), Persian mythology (especially the dualism of Zoroastrianism) and Egyptian mythology (judgement).. add those to their Canaanite roots (El, Ba'al, etc..) and you have Judaism. That's my hypothesis. anyway.

 

 

 

Yep yep.  Documentary hypothesis, that is

[Ravenstar]

Documentary? Sorry.. don't get it  

[amateur]

 

 

h

I don't know how anyone who knows any astronomy can believe in any religion; as if a god could make a whole universe with untold trillions of trillions of planets and trillions of races and only care about this one planet.

Not only does he care, he is downright fanatical about foreskins and dietary restrictions.

 

 

Foreskins make awesome war trophies too!  See: 1 Samuel 18:27.

 

Just read 1 Samuel 18:27.  Wow.  Never heard that one preached about in church!  200 foreskins!  They touched a lot of junk to collect those!  Then David brought the 200 foreskins back to the king?  That needs expanded on.  200 foreskins . . . how do you carry them?  Wouldn't they stink after a day or so?  How could you tell a foreskin from another bit of skin cut off after a few days?  This is very disgusting.

[Brother Jeff]

Let's lift up the LARD for all the flat world to see, but be careful not to bump His head on the solid dome firmament in which the stars are fixed! Glory!