LukeExChristian Posted April 29, 2014 Posted April 29, 2014 i want to get some house keeping done first. i respect everyone's beliefs. regardless if i disagree. with that said: i do not ask this with the intention of being condescending. why does god want us to believe in him by faith rather than by sight/reason. i make informed decisions everyday of my life, both important and frivolous by thinking and reasoning. why does god have to be an exception? if he demands that we deny our ability to reason, than is he hiding something? does he not have an answer for us? i just want to know the truth. i do not mean to begin a debate, but rather, to get to know the other side's take on it, if any of you care to inform me. i may be posting this in the wrong forum, but frankly, i find that irrelevant. if i do, however, have further questions, i will likely send a message asking.
Guest end3 Posted April 29, 2014 Posted April 29, 2014 i want to get some house keeping done first. i respect everyone's beliefs. regardless if i disagree. with that said: i do not ask this with the intention of being condescending. why does god want us to believe in him by faith rather than by sight/reason. i make informed decisions everyday of my life, both important and frivolous by thinking and reasoning. why does god have to be an exception? if he demands that we deny our ability to reason, than is he hiding something? does he not have an answer for us? i just want to know the truth. i do not mean to begin a debate, but rather, to get to know the other side's take on it, if any of you care to inform me. i may be posting this in the wrong forum, but frankly, i find that irrelevant. if i do, however, have further questions, i will likely send a message asking. My speculation is that God gave humanity sight/reason when He was with them. As for right now, I think we were just born in a different phase of His dispensation/plan. Reasonably certain most everyone would like to know "the truth"....the reason for life if there is one.
RipVanWinkle Posted April 29, 2014 Posted April 29, 2014 "why does god want us to believe in him by faith rather than by sight/reason. i make informed decisions everyday of my life, both important and frivolous by thinking and reasoning. why does god have to be an exception? LukeExchristian Why? Because the frauds who created the NT needed a way to control people through a false god without having to prove he actually existed. That's the whole purpose of those who created all religions requiring faith. bill 1
Overcame Faith Posted April 29, 2014 Posted April 29, 2014 Why? Because the frauds who created the NT needed a way to control people through a false god without having to prove he actually existed. That's the whole purpose of those who created all religions requiring faith. bill ^^True^^ Where there is solid evidence, there is no need for faith. The need for faith proves the lack of evidence.
FreeThinkerNZ Posted April 29, 2014 Posted April 29, 2014 Reasonably certain most everyone would like to know "the truth"....the reason for life if there is one. I don't need to know a "reason for" life, and I don't think there is one. Life just is. I'm perfectly satisfied with that. 1
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted April 29, 2014 Super Moderator Posted April 29, 2014 We give our own lives reason and meaning as we see fit; there is no need for god(s) in order for your life to have a purpose. 1
DoubtingNate Posted April 29, 2014 Posted April 29, 2014 I like the idea that Daniel Dennett has developed in his book 'Breaking the Spell,' that just like organisms, religions have adaptation mechanisms that enable them to be perpetuated further. Christianity has been successful in part because it teaches that belief without evidence, ie, faith, is a virtue to strive for. The practice of excommunicating 'heritics,' or even the very concept of 'heresy' itself is also helpful. Here are some illuminating quotes from Martin Luther on the topic: “Reason is the Devil’s greatest whore; by nature and manner of being she is a noxious whore; she is a prostitute, the Devil’s appointed whore; whore eaten by scab and leprosy who ought to be trodden under foot and destroyed, she and her wisdom… Throw dung in her face to make her ugly. She is and she ought to be drowned in baptism… She would deserve, the wretch, to be banished to the filthiest place in the house, to the closets.” —Martin Luther, Works, Erlangen Edition v. 16, pp. 142-148. “Reason is the greatest enemy that faith has; it never comes to the aid of spiritual things, but—more frequently than not—struggles against the divine Word, treating with contempt all that emanates from God.” —Martin Luther, Table Talks in 1569. “Heretics are not to be disputed with, but to be condemned unheard, and whilst they perish by fire, the faithful ought to pursue the evil to its source, and bathe their heads in the blood of the Catholic bishops, and of the Pope, who is the devil in disguise.” —Martin Luther, Table Talks (as quoted in Religious History: An Inquiry by M. Searle 2
zuker12 Posted April 29, 2014 Posted April 29, 2014 Whoa! Radical quotations from Luther. Reason is the poison of faith. This is a dissonant chord I get time and time again, when I think, how much is possibly hidden from us, supposing that god exists. Reason has brought us many good things and has dispelled or at least altered our views of god. Is this done on purpose? Why hide? It seems like a maniacal game to me.
DoubtingNate Posted April 29, 2014 Posted April 29, 2014 Luther was probably clinically insane by today's standards. 'The Jews and Their Lies' is also a pretty good read.
Scottsman Posted April 29, 2014 Posted April 29, 2014 Even the apostles received signs before following jesus. Reality is, as we advance in science and understanding works simply dont happen anymore. Either by magic or religion. We have standards of evidence now. The works described in the bible never happened. If they happened today they would be illusions. If you got Penn and Teller to perform in front of a 1st century audience and told the audience they were gods, the audience would believe it. No magic, no god, just illusions for uneducated peasants to control them.
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted April 29, 2014 Super Moderator Posted April 29, 2014 Even the apostles received signs before following jesus. Reality is, as we advance in science and understanding works simply dont happen anymore. Either by magic or religion. We have standards of evidence now. The works described in the bible never happened. If they happened today they would be illusions. If you got Penn and Teller to perform in front of a 1st century audience and told the audience they were gods, the audience would believe it. No magic, no god, just illusions for uneducated peasants to control them. And every time a gap in our knowledge gets filled in by scientific discovery, the "god of the gaps" gets smaller. How small can he get and still be considered omni-present? I'm not a philosopher, so I'd not hazard a guess.
bornagainathiest Posted April 29, 2014 Posted April 29, 2014 End3 wrote... "My speculation is that God gave humanity sight/reason when He was with them." When was that, End? And humanity consisted of how many humans at this time? And why was God physically with humans at this time? Thanks, BAA
Moderator TrueFreedom Posted April 29, 2014 Moderator Posted April 29, 2014 Some Christians will claim that blind belief is not required, just that we need to trust after God has revealed himself to us.
themonkeyman Posted April 29, 2014 Posted April 29, 2014 i want to get some house keeping done first. i respect everyone's beliefs. regardless if i disagree. with that said: i do not ask this with the intention of being condescending. why does god want us to believe in him by faith rather than by sight/reason. i make informed decisions everyday of my life, both important and frivolous by thinking and reasoning. why does god have to be an exception? if he demands that we deny our ability to reason, than is he hiding something? does he not have an answer for us? i just want to know the truth. i do not mean to begin a debate, but rather, to get to know the other side's take on it, if any of you care to inform me. i may be posting this in the wrong forum, but frankly, i find that irrelevant. if i do, however, have further questions, i will likely send a message asking. Il play the devils advocate here and have a go at old apologetics. God wants us to believe by faith so that we are sincere, that we are not swayed by evil things of this world and come to him by searching ourselves. If he made it point blank with sight and reason then God is being objectified. And since the world is full of Sin and God cannot abide in sin he is only available to us through faith!
Scottsman Posted April 29, 2014 Posted April 29, 2014 Always a good watch. http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Vfp6QipYV3w 1
midniterider Posted April 29, 2014 Posted April 29, 2014 Always a good watch. http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Vfp6QipYV3w That was a good vid.
Roz Posted April 29, 2014 Posted April 29, 2014 If god showed earlier men through reason, and now he just wants to see if we'll believe by faith, then god's a dick. That's the height of dickishness, to play metaphysical hide and seek where if people can't find him (and they really scientifically can't) they'll burn. That's beyond dickishness in fact, that's being immoral.
Guest afireinside Posted April 29, 2014 Posted April 29, 2014 If god showed earlier men through reason, and now he just wants to see if we'll believe by faith, then god's a dick. That's the height of dickishness, to play metaphysical hide and seek where if people can't find him (and they really scientifically can't) they'll burn. That's beyond dickishness in fact, that's being immoral. We don't need to see to believe but Jesus came as a visible man and even "reappeared" post-death to those who would believe. It's so inconsistent and illogical. Does God want us to see him? Initially yes, then partially though not face to face, then yes through Jesus, now no just by pretending that it doesn't matter. Not seeing is my primary reason for unbelief, if my dad is dead I don't expect him to pick me up from the train station, that's not faith, it's insanity!. Worse still God can't even speak audibly to us, that's the height of ignorance.
xtify Posted April 29, 2014 Posted April 29, 2014 Jesus said, "A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign." But he also said, "Except ye see signs and wonders, ye will not believe." I don't know what to make of this. Are we evil for seeking evidence of god? Or, is it necessary for us to see evidence in order to believe? Or, is none of this relevant to us today?
♦ ficino ♦ Posted April 29, 2014 Posted April 29, 2014 Jesus said, "A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign." But he also said, "Except ye see signs and wonders, ye will not believe." I don't know what to make of this. Are we evil for seeking evidence of god? Or, is it necessary for us to see evidence in order to believe? Or, is none of this relevant to us today? At the end of John 20, it says, "there are many other signs that Jesus did, but these are written that you may believe that he is the Christ, and believing have life upon his name." So sounds as though his "signs" were supposed to help convince people to believe. But I guess it's more meritorious to believe without any signs, just based on some guy's telling you that there were signs once.
Guest afireinside Posted April 29, 2014 Posted April 29, 2014 Jesus said, "A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign." But he also said, "Except ye see signs and wonders, ye will not believe." I don't know what to make of this. Are we evil for seeking evidence of god? Or, is it necessary for us to see evidence in order to believe? Or, is none of this relevant to us today? Jesus was naughty showing himself to John on the island of Patmos.
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted April 29, 2014 Super Moderator Posted April 29, 2014 Perhaps if jesus would have called Luke the Physician aside and said, "Look, mate, I'm going to spend the next six months giving you a crash course in which berries, herbs, roots, and flowers can be made into medicines to treat everything from leprosy to what you fools think is demon possession even though it's nothing more than a design flaw in the brain because dad fucked up the drawings," then we could point to something substantial about his supposed existence. Being able to say, "In the year 32CE, jesus and Luke earned the first nobel prize in medicine by curing leprosy," would allow us to know that jesus was god, but still require faith that he is mighty to save our souls.
xtify Posted April 29, 2014 Posted April 29, 2014 It certainly makes it harder to believe when all signs point to jesus not being the son of god, and god not creating the earth in 6 days. It's one thing to have faith, but it's going a step further to have to deny reality.
Guest afireinside Posted April 29, 2014 Posted April 29, 2014 The only fair way to determine if we have denied Jesus is if, when we die, Jesus meets us and allows us to accept him. That is the only fair way we can be judged for unbelief. Thats a definitive denial, not one based on confusion or lack of evidence.
sdelsolray Posted April 30, 2014 Posted April 30, 2014 … why does god want us to believe in him by faith rather than by sight/reason. … "God" is a projection of human thinking and emotions. It only exists in the mind of believers. The reason "God" (i.e., humans who believe in the "God") wants us to believe in him by faith rather than sight/reason is because sight and reason (among other things) do not demonstrate the existence of the "God", except as existing in the mind of believers. Critical thinking and reason demonstrate the God is a projection, a mere fiction that does not exist in reality (except in the minds of believers). Faith (belief without empirical evidence) is the only vehicle to (hopefully) persuade another human to follow suit and believe in the "God". 2
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