themonkeyman Posted April 30, 2014 Posted April 30, 2014 Hi Bill, I thought I would update you on my walk, After attempting to become an Atheist e.g. Believe in nothing whatsoever, I found this problematic and I would go so far as to believe it is a Faith in and of Itself. I now would class myself as Agnostic, I do not know weather or not a God exists however given the fact that I exist I would say I would go as far as saying that there 'Might' be a God. That said its definitely not the Christian or Jewish God! I know you are a Minister and will try and argue that God / Yahweh / Jesus is real etc. however I am sure you yourself who has been to college are sure to agree that the Bible is not the inerrant word of God. As much as I would love to become a Christian for the 'Fellowship' the belief in Jesus is too problematic! Here are some of the problems I found when reading the Bible. Old Testament 1) Why did God put the tree in Eden knowing that Humans would eat it? 2) Where did the serpent come from? 3) Why did Adam live a further 900 years when God said he would surely die? 4) God capped the maximum age a person can live, However people now continue to exceed this? 5) Noah had no problem with watching mass genocide. 6) Noah some how took two of every animal into his boat. 7) Noah was responsible for extinction of species as he had to kill them as a burnt offering! 8) Lots wife was turned into a Pillar of salt for looking back at Sodom and Gomorrah. 9) Lot offered the mob his daughter in exchange for letting them go, how wrong is this! 10) Moses never got to the Promised Land! 11) The mass exodus from Egypt has never been recorded. 12) When Jacob went to Egypt he told Pharaoh his wife was his Sister and then God punished the Pharaoh. God punished someone innocent after his 'Favourite' used deception. 13) Why was God showing favourites in the Garden of Eden. 14) Where and How did the Land of NOD come into existence. 15) Why was Cain worried someone would hurt him for killing Abel when there was only Adam and Eve? 16) Where did Cain's wife come from. 17) God burned someone for trying to steady the Ark of the Covenant! And if that is not ludicrous enough lets go into the New Testament. 1) The Synoptics of Key Events in Jesus life do not match up! 2) We have no Original Copy (Hebrew / Aramaic) of the Bible. 3) The Apostles could not read and write so therefore we have no evidence that they could confirm what the scribes wrote. 4) The scribes wrote their own versions of events and at times did this very badly. 5) The synoptics do not occur along a true historical timeline. 6) There are over 300,000 textual variations of the NT. 7) The Apostle Paul was most likely a fraud and Anti-Christ trying to get on the Band Wagon, Heck the guy seams proud that he hurt and killed Christians!. 8) Jesus himself appeared to be an Atheist at the end 'My God, My God, why have you forsaken me' This says that Jesus probably realised on the cross that his belief was in vain! 9) If Jesus was God then why would he cry this out at all! Surely he would expect this and even know that its for the Greater Good! 10) If Jesus died for our sins - Then why is he not currently in Hell - Considering Eternal Hell is the punishment for Sin then why did Jesus get out for free! Hardly substitution!. 11) Jesus attempted to sell us out in Gethsemane by asking God to remove the 'Cup' from him. 12) There is no single accepted view of anything in the entire Bible, Considering the Holy Spirit is supposed to lead us why is there so many derivatives. 13) Why do we not hear more about Joseph? Jesus Father? 14) What happened after Lazarus was resurrected from the dead? Did he die again - Why is this story passed over? 15) Why did no one think to record about 500 people rising from Graves when Jesus died? 16) Why do we not have an exact date for Jesus Birth / Baptism or Death? You would think that God would be written more about!. 17) According to Scripture unborn babies would end up in Hell because we are born into Original Sin hardly fair? 18) Why does it appear that God has managed to cause more problems by having his Son exist in the first place E.g. If Jesus did not exist we would not run the risk of eternal hell for not believing in the ludicrous stuff we are told. Hence If Jesus wanted to save people he has done a very bad Job of it!. 19) Why did Jesus not tell us something that we can use as proof that he was here on earth! E.g. a 4x4 Car or something that would gives us enough evidence of his existence, Perhaps telling us the cure for cancer or something! 20) Why does prayer have a 100% Fail Rate! 22) Your church needed a new Building! Yet what is going to fund this new Church! Money not God! 23) I was in Romania and those kids were in poverty Its funny how God ignored them because he would somehow infringe on free will! 24) IF we are all born into Original Sin, How did Jesus avoid this being upon himself! 25) Jesus disciples were the worst of the worst / Prostitutes / Tax Collectors / Thieves - How can we trust these people! Outside of this I must ask why there is mountains of evidence against Jesus existing however I do not deny someone called Jesus may have existed and was probably a Radical who got in trouble. What is more interesting is Celsus wrote very big discourses against Christianity. Typical that the Church burned them - To me this shows that the church could not stand up to any form of scrutiny it also allowed the church to alter Scripture to fix the holes that Celsus picked at. Then we have the Jewish Leaders / There were many Messiah figures back then doing 'Wonders' and 'Miracles' all these leaders were doing was protecting their people. The Jews have a strong enough argument against Jesus being God. Another odd thing is that Jesus never did any miracles in his own town, Perhaps because people knew he was nothing more than a magician or maybe they knew he made it all up?! As much as I would love to believe in Christianity there are severe problems with the faith and although I tried for a time to become Gnostic in my approach I realised that even that was majoritively made up which seems that if someone can fabricate something that looks real then how can I trust any of it! So that's my view! Thanks for your help Bill, Cheers, ------- His Reply ------- Hello. Thanks for your email. Sorry to hear there is still so much confusion. I think we touched on some of the issues you raise last summer when we corresponded. But you have a few more this time! I sense a great deal of confusion, lack of understanding and even anger in what you have written. You have also picked up on some information that is just not correct and your sources would concern me in light of this. It sounds as if you have been reading material that is biased against Christianity and have let it sway your views. Your comment about prayer having a 100% fail rate sounds like your own personal view, perhaps based you what you feel is your experience. It certainly would not be the testimony of myself or other Christians. You have mentioned so much it would get messy to deal with it all via email. I would gladly be prepared to meet up and chat about the issues you raise. Coffee at Costa or Starbucks? Let me know what you think. In the meantime, take care. Blessings, Bill 1
FreeThinkerNZ Posted April 30, 2014 Posted April 30, 2014 I like your letter. His, notsomuch. Are you going to meet up with him? If so, what outcome are you seeking? 1
Super Moderator buffettphan Posted April 30, 2014 Super Moderator Posted April 30, 2014 Your letter is good. Pastor's is the expected and typical condescending BS. IMO, I wouldn't waste my time meeting with him. It's time to shake the dust from your sandals and be done with the whole mess they call christinsanity. Like I said though, that's just my opinion and your mileage may vary. Whatever you decide, I hope it goes smoothly for you!
♦ ficino ♦ Posted April 30, 2014 Posted April 30, 2014 As usual, your pastor includes insinuations against your character in his reply. I'm not sure what things he thinks are incorrect in your letter, unless it's the 100% fail rate of prayer thing, but that boils down to how you slice the usual Christian "yes, no, later" take on answers to prayer. Unless this guy was a real friend, I wouldn't bother meeting with him. When I converted from Calvinism to Catholicism, I got the same response from my mentor. When I ditched Catholicism, I didn't bother going through the whole process with yet another clergyman, I just faded away. 1
Guest MadameX Posted April 30, 2014 Posted April 30, 2014 Maybe the best purpose this letter serves is to help you with a sense of closing the door on the mindf*ck that is Christian dogma. As for your minister, he has heard this all before, in fact he has had many if not all of these questions himself. However, he has bought in and is invested - you can not expect him to give up his meal ticket too easily. All the best to you! 1
themonkeyman Posted April 30, 2014 Author Posted April 30, 2014 1 Year ago I came to him with my doubts and I decided back then to leave Christianity however since we share the same Health Suite he does ask about my 'Journey' from time to time. I decided to update him on it - Ultimately I hoped he would have said something 'I know your right but I cant publiclly say it' Intrestingly when I decided to leave 1 Year ago he did not see this as an urgency to 'Save' me! I told him I wanted to try it and he said to balance out my teachings with some Christian works! And this email response again he still is not worried about my eternal fate. Its really odd! You would think a Pastor trying to win people over for Christ who really believed it would see my Unbelief as something that urgently needs help. I think prayer itself has a 100% failure rate like others have demonstrated and I have seen when I did an overseas mission to romania. People were living in slums and God did not bother to help them - But of course he will help old Miss So and So of her awful cold! Perhaps as folks have said here - He probably doesn't want to give up his meal ticket. He gets the following £45,000 + Free Electricity + Heating 5 Bedroom Manse (Brand New) All Expenses Paid Pension when he retires. 5 weeks holiday per year + study leave.
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted April 30, 2014 Super Moderator Posted April 30, 2014 "You have also picked up on some information that is just not correct and your sources would concern me in light of this. It sounds as if you have been reading material that is biased against Christianity and have let it sway your views." Translation: "You have been thinking for yourself and exploring the other side of the issue with a rational and objective mind and that scares me." Monkey, with all I've seen you go through over the past few months, I'd suggest not meeting with this guy. He's got an agenda (they all do); and he's just going to spend the entire discussion on "jesus is real; just have faith." It's not worth your time. 2
themonkeyman Posted April 30, 2014 Author Posted April 30, 2014 "You have also picked up on some information that is just not correct and your sources would concern me in light of this. It sounds as if you have been reading material that is biased against Christianity and have let it sway your views." Translation: "You have been thinking for yourself and exploring the other side of the issue with a rational and objective mind and that scares me." Monkey, with all I've seen you go through over the past few months, I'd suggest not meeting with this guy. He's got an agenda (they all do); and he's just going to spend the entire discussion on "jesus is real; just have faith." It's not worth your time. Professor I completely hear you - I tried myself to experience Gnosticism but when you realise that those are completely fabricated its really hard to believe the Bible isnt fabricated. E.g. Gnostic stories are complete works that are 100% Crap. So if someone can do so much writing and in detail on certain subjects that are ultimately smoke and mirrors. It really gives you another perspective on the Bible. You are right though on the Translation that's what I get from it too. Basically oh shit you know to much I gotta stop this before you affect others! Oddly enough this is the same Guy who preached a sermon saying 'Not all witches are evil and that there are Good witches' Oddly enough this ostracised me in my church because everyone else seamingly didnt hear it even when I listened to the sermon again lol
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted April 30, 2014 Super Moderator Posted April 30, 2014 "You have also picked up on some information that is just not correct and your sources would concern me in light of this. It sounds as if you have been reading material that is biased against Christianity and have let it sway your views." Translation: "You have been thinking for yourself and exploring the other side of the issue with a rational and objective mind and that scares me." Monkey, with all I've seen you go through over the past few months, I'd suggest not meeting with this guy. He's got an agenda (they all do); and he's just going to spend the entire discussion on "jesus is real; just have faith." It's not worth your time. Professor I completely hear you - I tried myself to experience Gnosticism but when you realise that those are completely fabricated its really hard to believe the Bible isnt fabricated. E.g. Gnostic stories are complete works that are 100% Crap. So if someone can do so much writing and in detail on certain subjects that are ultimately smoke and mirrors. It really gives you another perspective on the Bible. You are right though on the Translation that's what I get from it too. Basically oh shit you know to much I gotta stop this before you affect others! Oddly enough this is the same Guy who preached a sermon saying 'Not all witches are evil and that there are Good witches' Oddly enough this ostracised me in my church because everyone else seamingly didnt hear it even when I listened to the sermon again lol I sincerely hope you and I get to sit down and have a pint together sometime in this life, monkeyman.
themonkeyman Posted April 30, 2014 Author Posted April 30, 2014 Well get your A$$ back over here and visit lol
Aggie Posted April 30, 2014 Posted April 30, 2014 Monkeyman, My suggestion is not to meet with him-- or at least consider why you think you want to. Do you need his "blessing" to doubt? He won't give it. Will you change his mind? Not likely. Will he try to make you feel guilty and afraid? Most probably. Dogmatic Christians are often experts at manipulation. It's often a significant part of a pastor's job description. Encouraging and honest statements like: "I have no good answers to many of your concerns," "you're probably being honest when you doubt speculative, metaphysical beliefs since there are so many thousands of Christian sects and so many other religions," "torturing people forever does seem morally suspect now that you mention it," "I'll have to re-think my position and I might change my mind," etc. I have sat down and had talks with different types of Protestants, Catholics, and Orthodox believers. Of course, they all think they're right. Often they think that other types of Christians are foolish and/or damned. They also use a set of criteria that I think is both inconsistent and unfair-- extremely willing to be skeptical of others' beliefs and extremely unwilling to apply the same degree of skepticism to their own. Bill may be a nice guy otherwise, but it sounds like he is both unreasonable and delusional! His endorsement of you would probably be a bad sign. IMHO, Bill doesn't have a "vote" when it comes to your desires to be a more honest and authentic person. (Of course I don't either-- so do what you think is best!) Let us know what happens next...
Aggie Posted April 30, 2014 Posted April 30, 2014 As usual, your pastor includes insinuations against your character in his reply. I'm not sure what things he thinks are incorrect in your letter, unless it's the 100% fail rate of prayer thing, but that boils down to how you slice the usual Christian "yes, no, later" take on answers to prayer. Unless this guy was a real friend, I wouldn't bother meeting with him. When I converted from Calvinism to Catholicism, I got the same response from my mentor. When I ditched Catholicism, I didn't bother going through the whole process with yet another clergyman, I just faded away. ficino, I did the Calvinism to Catholicism thing myself. Also did more of a "fade away" ...
owen652 Posted April 30, 2014 Posted April 30, 2014 Have a coffee with someone else, someone genuine. Talk about movies or something.
amateur Posted April 30, 2014 Posted April 30, 2014 You wrote a wonderful, descriptive, questioning, specific, sincere letter to your pastor. He wrote back a short, judgmental reply grasping at the only thing he could claim you to be wrong -- the 100% fail rate of prayer. That's so subjective. If he prayed for Aunt Betty's flu to go away and it did, that could be considered an answer to him, thus not a 100% fail rate. Being subjective, you two could go in circles with that all day and both feel justified. He also said that a chat over coffee in a public place is better than e-mail. Oh no it is not. Oh no sir. And he knows that. A chat over coffee in a public place means light conversation (chat vs. deep, serious conversation) for a limited time (half hour tops, maybe) with no overt emotional display (public place). Emails can be worked on for hours, saved, edited, and changed to be made more clear or concise. Each one of your excellent points could be a focus of an individual email. Emails can go deep, questioned, and re-explained by either writer. Both you and he could cite different sources in emails to back up your views, something hard if not impossible to do in a short, public chat. He is not interested in that. He ended his email with "let me know what you think." I personally would either ignore it all together, end my relationship with the church, and be done with it all -- if I was in a cheerful, be-done-with-it mood. If I were in a snarky mood, I would reply with, "Hi Bill, you wanted me to let you know what I think. I think you answered my email perfectly, answered all my questions, and have settled the matter of my faith. I thank you for allowing me the pleasure of attending your beautiful church for the past [fill in number] years, but now I must move on. Thanks again for your time and help, [signed you]" 1
Moderator TrueFreedom Posted April 30, 2014 Moderator Posted April 30, 2014 I would enjoy conversations like this if they could stay intellectual. Unfortunately, no matter how objective and intellectually honest they may start out, the person of faith is bound to resort to emotional arguments and character judgments. I have a pastor friend who has continued a dialogue with me over the past few years. He said at the beginning that he wanted to know the truth, regardless of what side it fell on. Over time, however, his approach has digressed to cynical snipes and an accusatory posture. I want to engage, but any attempt is met with the same type of nonsense that we see with Christians on this forum. Perhaps not having their personal anecdotes and emotional appeals validated puts them on the defensive.
francesco Posted April 30, 2014 Posted April 30, 2014 I bet 5 loaves of breads and 2 fishes that the pastor would be in defending stance when monkeyman meet him
themonkeyman Posted April 30, 2014 Author Posted April 30, 2014 @amateur You are completely correct in what you say! In my opinion I find emails a lot more informative it lets me look into his claims and arguments and then evaluate for myself. What I think he would try to do is to blind side me with Biblical talk with Apologetics comming out his ears which would leave me unprepaired for any actual indepth discussion. The list I sent is by no means complete that was literally me covering the book of genesis and exodus and an overview of the NT. Ultimately he would win leading me to fear my salvation and put me back in line. Hence having an email dialog I would be able to raise some topical questions and get and answer. -- Heres my Reply -- Hi Bill, I am happy with my outlook, I do believe that Jesus indeed did exist however I honestly believe that he was just a rebel got on the wrong side of the establishment then got killed. It is true that I have read works that are biased against Christianity however every Christian work I have read comes up with the same Apologetic word play that leaves me unconvinced. Take for Example : The Holy Spirit is supposed to lead us to the truth, So why do we have other Churches with view points (Roman Catholic / Methodist / Church of Ireland / Protestant) In fact if God cannot be in the Presence of Sin / How come the Holy Spirit dwells within us 'Sinners' It does not have a problem being in the presence of Sin! Also if Jesus was God then he surely would know that Generations such as our own would have problems with Biblical Claims, He would also know the wars that have been fought over his word including the genocide of the Jews because hilter read a bible. So either Jesus was clumsy or was not God! With regards to the Fail Rate of Prayer, I would say that children dying on a regular basis in Africa show that God simply does not care or perhaps its because they don't have enough 'Faith'. And secondly the 11 Million Jews that died in the Holocaust - They were Gods chosen people - He didn't stop them from dying either! Whats worse is that Hilter was a Self Professed Christian so he would inherit eternal life and the jews after being burned alive in an oven then have to spend the rest of eternity in hell! After reading the Bible from start to finish I have to say that I am unconvinced, Talking Donkeys / Incest / Rape / Genocide from the OT and then in the NT we have Lies / Fraud and breaking of the Mosaic law by Jesus himself. The way I see it is that Jesus needed to perform miracles to convince people back then - If he wants me to believe anything Biblically then he has the power to show me in a Dream if not then he probably doesn't exist! Cheers,
Overcame Faith Posted April 30, 2014 Posted April 30, 2014 I think you overwhelmed the pastor with your list of issues. He knows he has no answers for most of your issues other than "faith." And he knows that that answer no longer works on you.
Guest MadameX Posted April 30, 2014 Posted April 30, 2014 Good chance he stands you up if you make that date.
Voice Posted April 30, 2014 Posted April 30, 2014 lol Confusion, misunderstanding. He's avoided most of your good questions. It's a trick. Detach yourself emotionally. Not to sound like a Microsoft manual (you just do this... [without ever telling you how to do it]) but it would be helpful for you to leave your pastor behind. He has a job to do, to suade you back. You're worth a dollar amount. Bottom line. He is right on the 100% prayer failure rate though. Don't use 100% in arguments. Take a real survey and determine what the "success" rate really is, with defined margins for error. People pray, other people hear, those people respond and prayer is answered (by other people). It's said to be answered by God, but it's other people. There are times when it seems like God answering some people's prayers, when things line up just right. You have to reconcile that part. Part of it is how they pray so that things happen naturally but it's made to seem like God.
themonkeyman Posted April 30, 2014 Author Posted April 30, 2014 Heres his reply Some of his responses are rather cheap. Perhaps I can appeal to the nice people here to come up with a rebuttal? Cheers --- HIS REPLY --- Hello, Trust you are well. I'm still concerned about the views you are forming and holding and I would still like to meet up and chat through the points you make, one by one. You've asked many questions. Be patient with me and let me ask you some. Why are you so ready to believe what others say against the Bible but not believe what the Bible says? If God is all powerful then why could He not do things that you cannot understand? If people choose to rebel against God and the world gets messed up, whose fault is that? The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of truth and He leads us in truth, but what happens if we do not listen to Him and go our own way? Who ever said that God cannot be in the presence of sin? What does the Bible say the anti-Christ believes? If there is enough food in the world to feed everyone in the world, but it does not get to those who are hungry, whose fault is that? How did Jesus break the Mosaic Law? Did Adam eventually die after he sinned? Did God say He would always punish sin immediately? What if because of His love He did not treat us as we deserve in order to give us time to repent? If you believe the historical witness that Henry the Eighth lived and died, why do you not accept the historical witness that Jesus lived, died and rose from the dead? Why should God prove Himself to you when He is already seen in creation and has placed knowledge of His reality in your heart? What if God does care about what is going on in the world, but for reasons that He does not reveal, or for reasons we would not understand, He chooses not to act yet? Why should our Creator explain everything that He does or does not do, to us? Is that how the managing director of a business relates to all his or her staff? Does your boss at work explain to you all he does or does not do regarding his business? If God takes someone's life for touching the Ark of the Covenant, after warning that if anyone touched the Ark of the Covenant they would die, what is unjust with that? Is anyone in the world innocent before God? If God wanted to test Adam by giving Him a command to keep, what is wrong with that? If Adam represents the whole human race and by his disobedience got the human race into trouble, is that unfair? Does this kind of thing not happen all the time? What happens to the whole team when their goalkeeper makes a mistake in the final minute and drops the ball into the net? What happens to ordinary citizens when their Prime Minister declares war on another country? What does 2 Corinthians 4:4 say? Might that be happening to you? What if you are wrong in rejecting Christianity? Have you ever heard of Pascal's Wager? Are you willing to gamble with your soul? Have an honest think, my friend. Try to answer all the questions. I'd still like to meet up to chat
Deva Posted April 30, 2014 Posted April 30, 2014 So, I see him playing the hell; Pascal's wager, humans are bad and God is good, and punishment cards. Very Predictable. Your pastor's questions show he is not interested in a "discussion". He is not interested in answering YOUR questions, because according to his faith, there are none. So, he feels free to submit questions to you, while your questions remain unanswered. From where I sit, I say its time to say Good-Bye to the Pastor. By the way-- the "they are not Christians because they are confused" explanation is a very old one. I even used to believe it myself when I was a Christian. Please don't buy it for one second.
FreeThinkerNZ Posted April 30, 2014 Posted April 30, 2014 You could ask him how long he thinks this "chat" will take, lol. Not sure if there are any 24 hour cafes in your area. He's put rather a lot of time into forming his "questions"... I guess he is probably recycling sermons now so has some time in his schedule for pointless activities like this. My approach to life nowadays is that since this life is all there is, I place more priority on living it than I would on hopeless causes like engaging for more than 5 minutes with apologists like him. The only response I would send him is "I don't want to meet you for a chat. I don't believe god exists."
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