SeriousSceptic Posted May 1, 2014 Posted May 1, 2014 I have just posted a new video, which has a question for Christians... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n0y6dM8GVxs
mymistake Posted May 1, 2014 Posted May 1, 2014 Welcome to the forum. I notice you had many responses in just one day. However the Christians who gave feedback mostly tried to avoid your questions. How typical.
ironhorse Posted May 2, 2014 Posted May 2, 2014 I have just posted a new video, which has a question for Christians... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n0y6dM8GVxs I've watched your video a few times and read the replies. I agree with the posters who stated that just because God knows what we will do does not mean God causes the actions. Also, I disagree with your view on predestination. God knew who would accept his love but that does not mean he hand picked the ones who would. I agree that some verses on this are difficult to understand. The best explanation I have read is that imagine you are about to enter Heaven and a big sign outside the gate reads "Whosoever Will', but once you enter Heaven and look back, a sign on the inside of the gate reads "Chosen Since the Foundation of the World". Free will? Yes, there's a danger in granting that freedom. It's like when your child ask for a bike. There are dangers in riding a bike. Do you not give your child a bike? Do you not allow them to do any activity that might be harmful to them or others? Here's some of what C.S. Lewis wrote about free will: God created things which had free will. That means creatures which can go wrong or right. Some people think they can imagine a creature which was free but had no possibility of going wrong, but I can't. If a thing is free to be good it's also free to be bad. And free will is what has made evil possible. Why, then, did God give them free will? Because free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. A world of automata -of creatures that worked like machines- would hardly be worth creating. The happiness which God designs for His higher creatures is the happiness of being freely, voluntarily united to Him and to each other in an ecstasy of love and delight compared with which the most rapturous love between a man and a woman on this earth is mere milk and water. And for that they've got to be free. Of course God knew what would happen if they used their freedom the wrong way: apparently, He thought it worth the risk. (...) If God thinks this state of war in the universe a price worth paying for free will -that is, for making a real world in which creatures can do real good or harm and something of real importance can happen, instead of a toy world which only moves when He pulls the strings- then we may take it it is worth paying. ~C.S. Lewis
◊ crazyguy123 ◊ Posted May 2, 2014 Posted May 2, 2014 Also, I disagree with your view on predestination. God knew who would accept his love but that does not mean he hand picked the ones who would. I agree that some verses on this are difficult to understand. If he knew beforehand who would obey and who would not and had a choice on who to create, then by creating people that he knew beforehand would either obey or disobey, he did indeed handpick the ones who would obey and the ones who would not. If, and only if, he is real and knows everything that will happen before it happens, then the only way he could not have purposefully predestined people to Heaven or Hell is if he is powerless to change the future and is incapable of choosing who to create. If that were the case, then he would certainly not be deserving of the title "God" (Demiurge may be a more proper title for him in such a case).
mymistake Posted May 2, 2014 Posted May 2, 2014 This is why Christian theology is a load of bull plop.
◊ crazyguy123 ◊ Posted May 2, 2014 Posted May 2, 2014 Welcome to the forum. I notice you had many responses in just one day. However the Christians who gave feedback mostly tried to avoid your questions. How typical. Since when have Christians ever avoided tough questions? I thought they were always honest and never used logical fallacies to defend their spoon-fed dogma.
♦ ficino ♦ Posted May 2, 2014 Posted May 2, 2014 I agree with the posters who stated that just because God knows what we will do does not mean God causes the actions. Also, I disagree with your view on predestination. God knew who would accept his love but that does not mean he hand picked the ones who would. I agree that some verses on this are difficult to understand. The best explanation I have read is that imagine you are about to enter Heaven and a big sign outside the gate reads "Whosoever Will', but once you enter Heaven and look back, a sign on the inside of the gate reads "Chosen Since the Foundation of the World". The Bible does not teach free will. It only talks about creatures making decisions. The Bible is clear that God is the first cause, who determines all secondary causes according to his will and pleasure. NO verse talks about free will. Verses where God announces choices do NOT go on to add a free will teaching. To try to deduce free will from verses that mention choices relies on a premise like "no choice made by a creature is predetermined by God," and such a premise is directly contradicted by scripture. We've been through this many times on here so I forbear to cite passages that have been often cited before. Here's some of what C.S. Lewis wrote about free will: God created things which had free will. That means creatures which can go wrong or right. Some people think they can imagine a creature which was free but had no possibility of going wrong, but I can't. If a thing is free to be good it's also free to be bad. And free will is what has made evil possible. Why, then, did God give them free will? Because free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. A world of automata -of creatures that worked like machines- would hardly be worth creating. The happiness which God designs for His higher creatures is the happiness of being freely, voluntarily united to Him and to each other in an ecstasy of love and delight compared with which the most rapturous love between a man and a woman on this earth is mere milk and water. And for that they've got to be free. Of course God knew what would happen if they used their freedom the wrong way: apparently, He thought it worth the risk. (...) If God thinks this state of war in the universe a price worth paying for free will -that is, for making a real world in which creatures can do real good or harm and something of real importance can happen, instead of a toy world which only moves when He pulls the strings- then we may take it it is worth paying. ~C.S. Lewis What C.S. Lewis can or cannot imagine is of no consequence. What matters is what the Bible says. 2
sdelsolray Posted May 2, 2014 Posted May 2, 2014 I have just posted a new video, which has a question for Christians... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n0y6dM8GVxs I've watched your video a few times and read the replies. Appropriate research is assumed and required. Should I be impressed with this statement? I agree with the posters who stated that just because God knows what we will do does not mean God causes the actions. Yes, "just because". But this God also created all things while knowing what all aspects of that creation would do. So, it's not a "just because God knows". Your "just because" turns into , "Just because as long as I don't consider anything else, particularly that God created things knowing this first". Assuming your God exists and further assuming it is omniscient and created all, your statement is hollow and vacuous. It fails to consider all of the evidence. Indeed, it specifically excludes relevant evidence (that this God created all things knowing what all things would do). Also, I disagree with your view on predestination. God knew who would accept his love but that does not mean he hand picked the ones who would. Sure he did. He knew which would accept him before he created them. He created them with or without the ability, function and purpose to accept him. or not accept him. He is entirely responsible for that portion of his creation as well as subsequent events which he knew would occur. Just ask Judge Judy about responsibility. Hitler did not gas the Jews. Others did. According to your Apologetic, Hitler is therefore not responsible for the death of those Jews. I agree that some verses on this are difficult to understand. Translation: I will avoid the contradictions in the Bible at all costs. Let me see if I can find an Apologetic to tame my cognitive dissonance. The best explanation I have read is that imagine you are about to enter Heaven and a big sign outside the gate reads "Whosoever Will', but once you enter Heaven and look back, a sign on the inside of the gate reads "Chosen Since the Foundation of the World". Yes. Here's the Apologetic I found and it is the "best". This is no explanation at all. That is merely from the perspective of the non-omniscient, non-omnipotent and non-omnibenevolent and paltry human who made it to this God's heaven. This God already knew what both signs said. Moreover, the "Chosen Since the Foundation of the World" line directly contradicts your earlier statement (in the same post) that "God knew who would accept his love but that does not mean he hand picked the ones who would." If one is chosen since the foundation of the world by this God then this God did, in fact, hand pick them. Free will? Free will cannot exist if an omniscient God exists. It is logically impossible. Free will is the ability to freely choose between at least two logically available choices. For example, I may choose to wear a blue shirt or a red shirt. However, if this omniscient God you claim exists already knows what choice I will make (red shirt), and he cannot be wrong, then I really have no choice at all. I must choose the red shirt. I may think I have free will, but I really don't. Not at all. It is a mere illusion. But, of course, if your omniscient God does not actually exist, or it exists and is not omniscient, then free will (as defined earlier in this paragraph) can actually exist. You can't have it both ways, at least in reality you can't. But I do not know much about fantasy and pretend reality. Perhaps you could inform us more about yours. Yes, there's a danger in granting that freedom. Not if you are an omniscient and omnipotent sky fairy. This God would already know what was to occur. No danger at all. No surprises. No changes. How boring that must be (if it were real). It's like when your child ask for a bike. There are dangers in riding a bike. Do you not give your child a bike? Do you not allow them to do any activity that might be harmful to them or others? Except, as a parent, I am not omniscient or omnipotent. If I was, I would know whether my child would be injured in that bike ride before it happened and (guess what?) I would not allow it. On the other hand (again assuming I am omniscient), if I knew all would be fine then I would allow it. Funny, and as an example, your imaginary God (who is supposed to be omnibenevolent) choose to allow the child to ride the bike knowing ahead of time that the child would be hit by a car and become paralyzed. In my book, that is the action of a bad parent. A horrible and shitty parent. You analogy sucks and verges on being a non-sequitur. Here's some of what C.S. Lewis wrote about free will: I will deal with the CS Lewis nonsense in a subsequent post. 1
Guest afireinside Posted May 2, 2014 Posted May 2, 2014 Welcome to the forum mate. I completely agree with your take on Christianity. I cannot fathom a God creating people knowing ahead of time that they would defy him and still allow them to exist with that end in mind. It's sadistic and twisted. Christians try to talk around it by saying we are the ones that choose our eternal destiny and that God woos us to him by his love-bullshit!. He allows people to be born into religions that are contrary to Christianity and may never live to know of Christ and expects them to CHOOSE him. I think if a God did exist he is a selfish asshole who would-for his own pleasure-create a human race where the vast majority will not accept his saviour, or not choose to worship him in the right way is a terrible testament to his ego and unloving nature. If I am going to hell I blame God not my choices, God supposedly put me here and the responsibility is his to fix his mistakes. The angels rebelled in Heaven and God STILL chose to create a vulnerable and naive human race knowing they would fall and suffer for that and also curse the human species in it's entirety. What an asshole!
florduh Posted May 2, 2014 Posted May 2, 2014 Since the Bible expresses contradictory messages on many subjects and is silent on others such as free will, it takes the apologetics industry to make up things that make the belief system work for them. The problem with the apologetics game and the Christian writers' speculations on such concepts as free will/predestination is that those who feel they simply MUST believe will find within these gambits some ways to feel justified in their crazy belief. Non-believing, thinking, rational people only see the folly of dressing the monkey in a silk suit; because it's still just a monkey in a silk suit.
sdelsolray Posted May 2, 2014 Posted May 2, 2014 Since the Bible expresses contradictory messages on many subjects and is silent on others such as free will, it takes the apologetics industry to make up things that make the belief system work for them. The problem with the apologetics game and the Christian writers' speculations on such concepts as free will/predestination is that those who feel they simply MUST believe will find within these gambits some ways to feel justified in their crazy belief. Non-believing, thinking, rational people only see the folly of dressing the monkey in a silk suit; because it's still just a monkey in a silk suit. Silk? All I see is polyester.
sdelsolray Posted May 2, 2014 Posted May 2, 2014 I agree with the posters who stated that just because God knows what we will do does not mean God causes the actions. Also, I disagree with your view on predestination. God knew who would accept his love but that does not mean he hand picked the ones who would. I agree that some verses on this are difficult to understand. The best explanation I have read is that imagine you are about to enter Heaven and a big sign outside the gate reads "Whosoever Will', but once you enter Heaven and look back, a sign on the inside of the gate reads "Chosen Since the Foundation of the World". The Bible does not teach free will. It only talks about creatures making decisions. The Bible is clear that God is the first cause, who determines all secondary causes according to his will and pleasure. NO verse talks about free will. Verses where God announces choices do NOT go on to add a free will teaching. To try to deduce free will from verses that mention choices relies on a premise like "no choice made by a creature is predetermined by God," and such a premise is directly contradicted by scripture. We've been through this many times on here so I forbear to cite passages that have been often cited before. Here's some of what C.S. Lewis wrote about free will: God created things which had free will. That means creatures which can go wrong or right. Some people think they can imagine a creature which was free but had no possibility of going wrong, but I can't. If a thing is free to be good it's also free to be bad. And free will is what has made evil possible. Why, then, did God give them free will? Because free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. A world of automata -of creatures that worked like machines- would hardly be worth creating. The happiness which God designs for His higher creatures is the happiness of being freely, voluntarily united to Him and to each other in an ecstasy of love and delight compared with which the most rapturous love between a man and a woman on this earth is mere milk and water. And for that they've got to be free. Of course God knew what would happen if they used their freedom the wrong way: apparently, He thought it worth the risk. (...) If God thinks this state of war in the universe a price worth paying for free will -that is, for making a real world in which creatures can do real good or harm and something of real importance can happen, instead of a toy world which only moves when He pulls the strings- then we may take it it is worth paying. ~C.S. Lewis What C.S. Lewis can or cannot imagine is of no consequence. What matters is what the Bible says. What the Bible says is of little or no consequence too. Mere assertions are mere assertions, regardless of their source.
Guest afireinside Posted May 2, 2014 Posted May 2, 2014 God hates me, this I know For the Bible tells me so
sdelsolray Posted May 2, 2014 Posted May 2, 2014 Here's some of what C.S. Lewis wrote about free will: God created things which had free will. A unsupported premise (God exists) followed by a mere assertion (that this God created things with free will). Two fallacies in the first sentence. That means creatures which can go wrong or right. False dichotomy fallacy . Creatures can do things other than right or wrong things. Some people think they can imagine a creature which was free but had no possibility of going wrong, but I can't. Strawman, with a side salad of incredulity. If a thing is free to be good it's also free to be bad. Just not in any way he can demonstrate. Mere assertion. And free will is what has made evil possible. The mere assertion King speaks. He's on a roll folks. Why, then, did God give them free will? Ah, yes, let's return to his earlier fallacies. Because free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. This is getting good. Let add a false dichotomy to the earlier fallacies. And, as expected, let's not provide any evidence of the new mere assertion. A world of automata -of creatures that worked like machines- would hardly be worth creating. Yes, let's create another strawman that we can hopeful use later in yet another false dichotomy. The happiness which God designs for His higher creatures is the happiness of being freely, voluntarily united to Him and to each other in an ecstasy of love and delight compared with which the most rapturous love between a man and a woman on this earth is mere milk and water. And for that they've got to be free. Note the "higher creatures" narcissism and note the sexual suggestion. Of course, CS Lewis speaks for all of humanity. He's a smart guy. He was special. Of course, tag it at the end with another false dichotomy with a side salad of conflation (intentionally substituting "free" for "free will"). Of course God knew what would happen if they used their freedom the wrong way: apparently, He thought it worth the risk. (...) My oh my. Lewis uses the word "apparently". Apparently, Lewis is not so sure about this assertion. Also, apparently, his sky fairy was not omniscient (because an omniscient God would already know what would happen and "risk" would be irrelevant). If God thinks this state of war in the universe a price worth paying for free will -that is, for making a real world in which creatures can do real good or harm and something of real importance can happen, instead of a toy world which only moves when He pulls the strings- then we may take it it is worth paying. Yes, let's put most the previous fallacies all together in one great word salad sentence - just for impact. But let's add a couple more just for good measure. And let's add "war" too. CS Lewis's apologetic writings are some of the most immature, shallow and narcissistic writings in the Christian apologetics genre. I am not surprised that many of that religion's believers think he is the cat's meow. 1
Deva Posted May 2, 2014 Posted May 2, 2014 C.S. Lewis seems to have been an intelligent man, until his mind got deranged by Christianity. Probably it was an emotional problem. Anyway, It made him lose all reason and imagination, to the extent that he could write nonsense such as that quoted above in post #3. Christians like to quote him because they think he is a great example of an educated "intellectual" Christian.
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted May 2, 2014 Super Moderator Posted May 2, 2014 Free will? Yes, there's a danger in granting that freedom. It's like when your child ask for a bike. There are dangers in riding a bike. Do you not give your child a bike? Do you not allow them to do any activity that might be harmful to them or others? That is not the kind of free will that god supposedly gave us, though. god is more like a father who takes his son into a candy store and says, "Son, you can have anything in this store you want, but if you don't choose what I want you to choose, I will beat you until you are black, red, and blue." That is exactly what god meant by demanding that we choose to accept jesus or burn in hell for all eternity. Society would not abide such a father raising children; why would the church expect us to worship one? 1
DoubtingNate Posted May 2, 2014 Posted May 2, 2014 C.S. Lewis used to seem so wise and all knowing to me. Now when I see his stuff it's like, WTF?? I guess I can thank those Narnia books. I still have a soft spot for Narnia
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted May 2, 2014 Super Moderator Posted May 2, 2014 God created things which had free will. That means creatures which can go wrong or right. Some people think they can imagine a creature which was free but had no possibility of going wrong, but I can't. If a thing is free to be good it's also free to be bad. And free will is what has made evil possible. ~CS Lewis "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things." Isaiah 45:7 FAIL! Free will isn't what made evil possible, the lord made it possible when he created it. 1
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted May 2, 2014 Super Moderator Posted May 2, 2014 C.S. Lewis used to seem so wise and all knowing to me. Now when I see his stuff it's like, WTF?? I guess I can thank those Narnia books. I still have a soft spot for Narnia "The Voyage of the Dawn Treader" will always be one of my favorite books. It's a work of fantasy, like all christian writings.
FreeThinkerNZ Posted May 2, 2014 Posted May 2, 2014 C.S. Lewis used to seem so wise and all knowing to me. Now when I see his stuff it's like, WTF?? I guess I can thank those Narnia books. I still have a soft spot for Narnia I know, when I was a kid I was like "Aw, he writes good Narnia books AND he's a Great Christian Teacher"... he seems so lame now.
mymistake Posted May 2, 2014 Posted May 2, 2014 God created things which had free will. That means creatures which can go wrong or right. Some people think they can imagine a creature which was free but had no possibility of going wrong, but I can't. If a thing is free to be good it's also free to be bad. And free will is what has made evil possible. ~CS Lewis "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things." Isaiah 45:7 FAIL! Free will isn't what made evil possible, the lord made it possible when he created it. Yeah but that is one of those mysterious Bible verses that cannot be understood 'cuz it doesn't actually mean what it looks like it means 'cuz if you had the Holy Spirit giving you discernment . . . I still love A Horse And His Boy. What a great children's adventure! The Screwtape Letters is also a wonderful novel. It would have made a fine Twilight Zone episode. Horrible theology. You could drive a truck through the holes in the theology. But fine entertainment.
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted May 2, 2014 Super Moderator Posted May 2, 2014 God created things which had free will. That means creatures which can go wrong or right. Some people think they can imagine a creature which was free but had no possibility of going wrong, but I can't. If a thing is free to be good it's also free to be bad. And free will is what has made evil possible. ~CS Lewis "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things." Isaiah 45:7 FAIL! Free will isn't what made evil possible, the lord made it possible when he created it. Yeah but that is one of those mysterious Bible verses that cannot be understood 'cuz it doesn't actually mean what it looks like it means 'cuz if you had the Holy Spirit giving you discernment . . . I still love A Horse And His Boy. What a great children's adventure! The Screwtape Letters is also a wonderful novel. It would have made a fine Twilight Zone episode. Horrible theology. You could drive a truck through the holes in the theology. But fine entertainment. I have the same spirit giving me discernment now as I did when I was Super God BoyTM. Granted, it took a while for that spirit to discern bovine excrement for what it is; but now that it has, it is like a fire shut up in my bones.
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