DrNo Posted May 1, 2014 Posted May 1, 2014 This thought just hit me in the shower this morning as I was ruminating about Easter/Passover season, and I thought I would share: Why would Yahweh need to go through the process of the plagues and the exodus, along with the 40 years of wandering, to get the Israelites out of Egypt? I mean, he's god, so he could just teleport them to Canaan and then create a magic force field around them that keeps out anyone who means to harm them, but lets in all the friendlies for trade, marriage, etc. I tried to think of answers a Christian would give. One is that God wanted to use the Israelites to create awe among the surrounding nations. Well, a) that didn't seem to work out so well and I think that teleportation and a permanent magic force field would probably drive the point home a lot better that God and his people were not to be fucked with, and would have probably resulted in far more conversions and less deaths by plague/battle. Another is that God was using the experience to teach the Israelites humility and submission to him. Again, it just seems like there are a lot better ways to go about this to avoid a lot of death. How about instead of having to establish a system of human judges, god whenever someone broke a commandment they are instantly teleported to a "time out" zone so that they are reminded that you don't break his laws. After enough time, the person is returned, more humbled and genuinely contrite. If God is infinite, this would not cost him anything and would not be difficult for him. The only thing that would make sense if he were real would be that he's a psychopath who loves death and destruction, and just wanted to stir shit up to enjoy the show. Of course, what makes even more sense is that this is a big Jewish fairy tale used to inspire, intimidate, and indoctrinate.
sdelsolray Posted May 1, 2014 Posted May 1, 2014 This thought just hit me in the shower this morning as I was ruminating about Easter/Passover season, and I thought I would share: Why would Yahweh need to go through the process of the plagues and the exodus, along with the 40 years of wandering, to get the Israelites out of Egypt? I mean, he's god, so he could just teleport them to Canaan and then create a magic force field around them that keeps out anyone who means to harm them, but lets in all the friendlies for trade, marriage, etc. I tried to think of answers a Christian would give. One is that God wanted to use the Israelites to create awe among the surrounding nations. Well, a) that didn't seem to work out so well and I think that teleportation and a permanent magic force field would probably drive the point home a lot better that God and his people were not to be fucked with, and would have probably resulted in far more conversions and less deaths by plague/battle. Another is that God was using the experience to teach the Israelites humility and submission to him. Again, it just seems like there are a lot better ways to go about this to avoid a lot of death. How about instead of having to establish a system of human judges, god whenever someone broke a commandment they are instantly teleported to a "time out" zone so that they are reminded that you don't break his laws. After enough time, the person is returned, more humbled and genuinely contrite. If God is infinite, this would not cost him anything and would not be difficult for him. The only thing that would make sense if he were real would be that he's a psychopath who loves death and destruction, and just wanted to stir shit up to enjoy the show. Of course, what makes even more sense is that this is a big Jewish fairy tale used to inspire, intimidate, and indoctrinate. The only thing that makes sense to me is that poor and shallow fiction is poor and shallow fiction.
Guest afireinside Posted May 1, 2014 Posted May 1, 2014 Don't you know he makes all things work for the good of those who love him?-even genocide, famine, pestilence, incest etc. I have the same issue with salvation. Why do people accept Christ and are supposedly saved-as the Israelites were after Egypt-yet still stick around on earth to fall prey to sickness, inhumanity and the desires of a corrupt flesh?. Are we not the most pure and righteous the moment we are saved? Why not teleport us to Heaven instantly and not go through the tests of life for 50 years and be one of those who are killed by the snakes or damned for building Golden Calves?. What purpose does it serve to prolong an existence that preludes eternity if that endangers our eternal souls?. If Jesus came as a fireman to rescue us from the burning building of sin, why then are we still left in the house to die of smoke inhalation before he drags us out? 1
Moderator TrueFreedom Posted May 1, 2014 Moderator Posted May 1, 2014 None of it makes any sense when you analyze it. That's how we've ended up with so many religions and factions with so many vastly different explanations.
Gamecock1973 Posted May 2, 2014 Posted May 2, 2014 My favorite part of the exodus story are the resurrected horses. Notice that in the plague on livestock ALL of the egyptian horses are killed. But then a few days later the egyptian army has horses to pull their chariots into the red sea to be killed in dramatic fashion! 3
Gamecock1973 Posted May 2, 2014 Posted May 2, 2014 This thought just hit me in the shower this morning as I was ruminating about Easter/Passover season, and I thought I would share: Why would Yahweh need to go through the process of the plagues and the exodus, along with the 40 years of wandering, to get the Israelites out of Egypt? I mean, he's god, so he could just teleport them to Canaan and then create a magic force field around them that keeps out anyone who means to harm them, but lets in all the friendlies for trade, marriage, etc. I could understand a xtian arguing that the 40 years of suffering was to build character or something (they have such a twisted view of suffering). I'm sure some theologians would tell you this was all a prophetic plan pointing to Jesus being the passover lamb or in the wilderness for 40 days and the taking of canaan foretelling the triumphant church in the future or some other such bullshit (because obviously this god thinks it is fun to fuck over old testament people just so jesus can "fulfill" some scripture that was never intended to be prophecy in the first place!). My biggest problem with the exodus story is that god proudly declares that the plagues and hardening pharaoh's heart and killing the innocent firstborn of every family in egypt was to "display his glory to all the earth." Like, WTF? You're right, it seems ANYONE decent with the power to do any miraculous act could have come up with something like teleportation or any number of awesome ways to deliver his people out of egypt without murdering babies in their sleep. 1
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted May 2, 2014 Super Moderator Posted May 2, 2014 This thought just hit me in the shower this morning as I was ruminating about Easter/Passover season, and I thought I would share: Why would Yahweh need to go through the process of the plagues and the exodus, along with the 40 years of wandering, to get the Israelites out of Egypt? I mean, he's god, so he could just teleport them to Canaan and then create a magic force field around them that keeps out anyone who means to harm them, but lets in all the friendlies for trade, marriage, etc. I could understand a xtian arguing that the 40 years of suffering was to build character or something (they have such a twisted view of suffering). I'm sure some theologians would tell you this was all a prophetic plan pointing to Jesus being the passover lamb or in the wilderness for 40 days and the taking of canaan foretelling the triumphant church in the future or some other such bullshit (because obviously this god thinks it is fun to fuck over old testament people just so jesus can "fulfill" some scripture that was never intended to be prophecy in the first place!). My biggest problem with the exodus story is that god proudly declares that the plagues and hardening pharaoh's heart and killing the innocent firstborn of every family in egypt was to "display his glory to all the earth." Like, WTF? You're right, it seems ANYONE decent with the power to do any miraculous act could have come up with something like teleportation or any number of awesome ways to deliver his people out of egypt without murdering babies in their sleep. Ancient Hebrews would often incorporate the same events in their writings in order to give layered meaning. Joseph goes to Egypt, the king orders the slaughter of male babes, the savior child is spared, a divine being proclaims the savior child is safe, the exodus to Canaan: these events took place both in the book of exodus and again in the nativity stories of the gospels. The wandering in the desert for forty days was retold in the gospels as jesus being tempted in the wilderness for forty days. Both of these are good examples of how the Greeks used Hebrew writing techniques to make the christ myth more appealing to the Jews. 1
FreeThinkerNZ Posted May 2, 2014 Posted May 2, 2014 TRP said Both of these are good examples of how the Greeks used Hebrew writing techniques to make the christ myth more appealing to the Jews. Were the Greeks trying to sell xianity to the Jews or the Gentiles or both, and why?
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted May 2, 2014 Super Moderator Posted May 2, 2014 TRP said Both of these are good examples of how the Greeks used Hebrew writing techniques to make the christ myth more appealing to the Jews. Were the Greeks trying to sell xianity to the Jews or the Gentiles or both, and why? The gospels were originally written in Greek. If I remember correctly so were the rest of the new testament books. Some of the books were geared toward the Jews and others were more for Gentiles. As to the question of "why?", the true answer is I don't really know. I have seen a couple of documentaries and read a couple of books that seemed to indicate that it was a Roman attempt to quell the Jewish rebellion for good.
FreeThinkerNZ Posted May 2, 2014 Posted May 2, 2014 TRP said Both of these are good examples of how the Greeks used Hebrew writing techniques to make the christ myth more appealing to the Jews. Were the Greeks trying to sell xianity to the Jews or the Gentiles or both, and why? The gospels were originally written in Greek. If I remember correctly so were the rest of the new testament books. Some of the books were geared toward the Jews and others were more for Gentiles. As to the question of "why?", the true answer is I don't really know. I have seen a couple of documentaries and read a couple of books that seemed to indicate that it was a Roman attempt to quell the Jewish rebellion for good. Thanks, that makes sense to me. I remember reading stuff in the NT about Gentiles so I was trying to square that up with xianity being designed for up to two completely different audiences. Would it be fair to say that xianity stuck with the Gentiles more than it stuck with the Jews?
Blood Posted May 2, 2014 Posted May 2, 2014 Why would Yahweh need to go through the process of the plagues and the exodus, along with the 40 years of wandering, to get the Israelites out of Egypt? I mean, he's god, so he could just teleport them to Canaan and then create a magic force field around them that keeps out anyone who means to harm them, but lets in all the friendlies for trade, marriage, etc. It's a myth. You're not supposed to rationally examine it. It's kind of like asking, "Why doesn't the Joker just shoot Batman?" Or "Why doesn't Goldfinger just shoot James Bond?" 1
mymistake Posted May 2, 2014 Posted May 2, 2014 TRP said Both of these are good examples of how the Greeks used Hebrew writing techniques to make the christ myth more appealing to the Jews. Were the Greeks trying to sell xianity to the Jews or the Gentiles or both, and why? The gospels were originally written in Greek. If I remember correctly so were the rest of the new testament books. Some of the books were geared toward the Jews and others were more for Gentiles. As to the question of "why?", the true answer is I don't really know. I have seen a couple of documentaries and read a couple of books that seemed to indicate that it was a Roman attempt to quell the Jewish rebellion for good. Thanks, that makes sense to me. I remember reading stuff in the NT about Gentiles so I was trying to square that up with xianity being designed for up to two completely different audiences. Would it be fair to say that xianity stuck with the Gentiles more than it stuck with the Jews? There were many first and second century religious sects that had Jewish and Christian type infusions. The ones that stayed in Palestine were destroyed during the Roman-Jewish war. It's hard to say how popular Christianity was in the Holy Land because any survivors died as slaves building the Colosseum. Only Paul's style aimed at the Gentiles survived. And after the war it became fashionable to distance yourself from the Jews. Have you ever noticed how much the gospels talk about "the Jews" and how "the Jews" did bad things? It's a might strange phrase to use in a story where the heros are all Jewish. It's literary evidence that the Gospels were written after the Temple was destroyed.
Ravenstar Posted May 2, 2014 Posted May 2, 2014 my fave part of that is the pillar of smoke and the pillar of fire… hahahaha… can anyone say, umm.. volcano? The entire story is rubbish.
Fernweh Posted May 2, 2014 Posted May 2, 2014 The most amazing thing about this story is that anyone actually believes any of it actually happened. 2
Blood Posted May 3, 2014 Posted May 3, 2014 TRP said Both of these are good examples of how the Greeks used Hebrew writing techniques to make the christ myth more appealing to the Jews. Were the Greeks trying to sell xianity to the Jews or the Gentiles or both, and why? The gospels were originally written in Greek. If I remember correctly so were the rest of the new testament books. Some of the books were geared toward the Jews and others were more for Gentiles. As to the question of "why?", the true answer is I don't really know. I have seen a couple of documentaries and read a couple of books that seemed to indicate that it was a Roman attempt to quell the Jewish rebellion for good. Thanks, that makes sense to me. I remember reading stuff in the NT about Gentiles so I was trying to square that up with xianity being designed for up to two completely different audiences. Would it be fair to say that xianity stuck with the Gentiles more than it stuck with the Jews? There were many first and second century religious sects that had Jewish and Christian type infusions. The ones that stayed in Palestine were destroyed during the Roman-Jewish war. It's hard to say how popular Christianity was in the Holy Land because any survivors died as slaves building the Colosseum. Only Paul's style aimed at the Gentiles survived. And after the war it became fashionable to distance yourself from the Jews. Have you ever noticed how much the gospels talk about "the Jews" and how "the Jews" did bad things? It's a might strange phrase to use in a story where the heros are all Jewish. It's literary evidence that the Gospels were written after the Temple was destroyed. Do we even have any extra-Biblical evidence of Christianity existing in the Holy Land prior to the third century? The earliest dating of Christianity is in Rome in the 50s-60s with Suetonius and Tacitus writing about that period. Paul's "churches" were in Rome, Greece, and Asia Minor -- everywhere BUT the Holy Land ... and this (supposedly) well before the First Jewish War. Pliny the Younger dealt with Christians in Asia Minor in the early 100s. This was embarrassing to Luke so he wrote "Acts of the Apostles" after 120 to create the fiction of a "Jerusalem Church" that never actually existed. Christianity is a religion ABOUT Israel. It is not, in my opinion, a religion FROM Israel (Galilee/Judea). 1
♦ Fuego ♦ Posted May 3, 2014 Posted May 3, 2014 The story is replete with half-hearted miracles, and a weak god, Ex 13:17 "When Pharaoh let the people go, God did not lead them on the road through the Philistine country, though that was shorter. For God said, “If they face war, they might change their minds and return to Egypt.” So why not demonstrate your power and kick their butts like you did with Pharaoh's army, and not have the Israelites fight at all? Like Blood keeps pointing out, it is fiction. Rabbi David Wolpe even told his congregation that there is no physical evidence for the Exodus, but to cling to it anyway as "truth" that lives within them. One rabbi said "The Egyptians didn't record defeats", but ignores that all the other kingdoms around there would have recorded it repeatedly, perhaps with glee. Also, I just looked up "iron chariots" on Biblegateway and two verses popped up showing a contradiction as well as a weak god: Joshua 17:18 "but the forested hill country as well. Clear it, and its farthest limits will be yours; though the Canaanites have chariots fitted with iron and though they are strong, you can drive them out.”Judges 1:19 "The Lord was with the men of Judah. They took possession of the hill country, but they were unable to drive the people from the plains, because they had chariots fitted with iron."
DoubtingNate Posted May 3, 2014 Posted May 3, 2014 Were the horses that drowned in the Red Sea immune to all the plagues, especially the animal killing ones ??
Aries256 Posted May 3, 2014 Posted May 3, 2014 Gotta love the wild and crazy BS. What I find interesting is zero real world evidence or proof any of this happened.
Guest afireinside Posted May 4, 2014 Posted May 4, 2014 Gotta love the wild and crazy BS. What I find interesting is zero real world evidence or proof any of this happened. Satan removed all the evidence along with Noah's Ark, it's all a deception to make us doubt God's existence. 1
Jds22 Posted May 4, 2014 Posted May 4, 2014 Do we even have any extra-Biblical evidence of Christianity existing in the Holy Land prior to the third century? The earliest dating of Christianity is in Rome in the 50s-60s with Suetonius and Tacitus writing about that period. Paul's "churches" were in Rome, Greece, and Asia Minor -- everywhere BUT the Holy Land ... and this (supposedly) well before the First Jewish War. Pliny the Younger dealt with Christians in Asia Minor in the early 100s. This was embarrassing to Luke so he wrote "Acts of the Apostles" after 120 to create the fiction of a "Jerusalem Church" that never actually existed. Christianity is a religion ABOUT Israel. It is not, in my opinion, a religion FROM Israel (Galilee/Judea). I'd like to hear more about this. I've never thought of it before.
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