questioneverything Posted May 2, 2014 Posted May 2, 2014 Hi, As a Christian, which I was for well over 30 years, I always pointed to the many (hundreds?) of messianic prophecies that were fulfilled by Jesus as an amazing proof of his divinity - how could Jews even dispute this?? As an unbeliever who has spent close to 2 1/2 years researching Christianity, I find it hard to believe that this particular 'proof' could ever be cited. In fact, I will go so far as to say it can ONLY be cited by someone who hasn't spent any time whatsoever actually studying the messianic prophecies. At some point, probably through a recommendation of someone on this site, I read Thomas Paine's Examination of the Prophecies, and was utterly dumbfounded that I had ever been so naive. Paine starts with Matthew, and works his way through the four gospels to show how each of the 'prophecies' are nothing of the sort when read IN CONTEXT (imagine that). Christians will often call out nonbelievers for taking verses of the Bible out of context - and yet ALL of the prophecies in the gospels are ripped, nay TORN out of context to make them sound as though they're pointing to Jesus. Want proof? Easy. Read it for yourself - it's online - link below: http://www.sacred-texts.com/aor/paine/proph.htm I would seriously challenge any Christian to read this and provide a response. Even the virgin birth is shown to have nothing to do with an event that takes place hundreds of years later - unless you take it completely out of context (and change the meaning of the word 'almah'). I brought several of these up to my Pastor when I was still a member of my church, and it was apparent that he had never heard these challenges. And he went to SEMINARY...what are they teaching people...to read selectively, and not dig too deeply into passages? If any Christian has a response to this, please let me know. Thanks. 1
♦ ficino ♦ Posted May 2, 2014 Posted May 2, 2014 Christianity's approach since the NT itself is to ignore context and to allegorize. Justin Martyr's Dialogue with Trypho, in which the author portrays himself seeking to persuade a Jew that Jesus is the messiah, is a huge exercise in this, but as you say, it's all over the gospels and epistles of the NT.
questioneverything Posted May 3, 2014 Author Posted May 3, 2014 Anyone? [crickets] No? [tumbleweed blows across road] Shocking...
ironhorse Posted May 3, 2014 Posted May 3, 2014 If interested... Here's one good rebuttal: http://www.tektonics.org/lp/painet01.php
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted May 3, 2014 Super Moderator Posted May 3, 2014 ^^^What? Couldn't find any relevant Dylan lyrics?
questioneverything Posted May 3, 2014 Author Posted May 3, 2014 Ironhorse - thanks for your reply. Also, thank you for illustrating my point perfectly. You clearly didn't read Examination of the Prophecies, as the link you sent wasn't addressing that piece of literature. Rather it was addressing Thomas Paine in general (and maybe more specifically The Age of Reason). I can hardly blame you, as when I was a Christian, I likely would have done the same thing. That is, NOT read the counterapologetic view, but rather searched for something written by a Christian that addresses it. The problem here is, what you sent didn't address it at all, and if you had read it, you'd know that. As a Christian, I always felt like I knew the opposing arguments because apologists told me what they were. Wrong. Do yourself a favor (if you're truly open to knowing the truth...and maybe you're not) - stop trusting that you know what the argument is because your pastor told you, and read it for yourself. "You give me the awful impression - I hate to have to say it - of someone who's never read any of the arguments against his position - ever"Christopher Hitchens 4
FreeThinkerNZ Posted May 3, 2014 Posted May 3, 2014 Ironhorse - thanks for your reply. Also, thank you for illustrating my point perfectly. You clearly didn't read Examination of the Prophecies, as the link you sent wasn't addressing that piece of literature. Rather it was addressing Thomas Paine in general (and maybe more specifically The Age of Reason). I can hardly blame you, as when I was a Christian, I likely would have done the same thing. That is, NOT read the counterapologetic view, but rather searched for something written by a Christian that addresses it. The problem here is, what you sent didn't address it at all, and if you had read it, you'd know that. As a Christian, I always felt like I knew the opposing arguments because apologists told me what they were. Wrong. Do yourself a favor (if you're truly open to knowing the truth...and maybe you're not) - stop trusting that you know what the argument is because your pastor told you, and read it for yourself. "You give me the awful impression - I hate to have to say it - of someone who's never read any of the arguments against his position - ever" Christopher Hitchens Expect MetalEquine to take no notice.
Guest afireinside Posted May 4, 2014 Posted May 4, 2014 Ironhorse - thanks for your reply. Also, thank you for illustrating my point perfectly. You clearly didn't read Examination of the Prophecies, as the link you sent wasn't addressing that piece of literature. Rather it was addressing Thomas Paine in general (and maybe more specifically The Age of Reason). I can hardly blame you, as when I was a Christian, I likely would have done the same thing. That is, NOT read the counterapologetic view, but rather searched for something written by a Christian that addresses it. The problem here is, what you sent didn't address it at all, and if you had read it, you'd know that. As a Christian, I always felt like I knew the opposing arguments because apologists told me what they were. Wrong. Do yourself a favor (if you're truly open to knowing the truth...and maybe you're not) - stop trusting that you know what the argument is because your pastor told you, and read it for yourself. "You give me the awful impression - I hate to have to say it - of someone who's never read any of the arguments against his position - ever" Christopher Hitchens Expect MetalEquine to take no notice. The gelding just got whipped!
Jedah Posted May 4, 2014 Posted May 4, 2014 As a sidenote, tektonics is really bad to use for apologetics. A lot of the sources that site uses are complete fabricated flat out lies, and when this is pointed out they refuse to acknowledge the problem let alone correct any of their articles. The owner of tektonics is most likely a conman taking advantage of Christians desperate for answers. http://the-anointed-one.com/exposed.html I actually used to post on a forum that JP Holding is a member of ( Theologyweb ) and he would regularly lie about other members actions. The guy is a snake.
Woodsy Posted May 4, 2014 Posted May 4, 2014 I looked over the referenced sites and this thought came to mind: If God inspired the "infallible" bible to communicate with humans, why is there so many discrepancies and contradictions? You would think that He would have given us clear and simple words that no man would contradict. Instead, we have confusion as to what He really said. And isn't there a scripture that says that God is not a God of confusion? 1
questioneverything Posted May 4, 2014 Author Posted May 4, 2014 I don't know about God, but someone is the author of confusion, because there's a shitload of it in the Bible. One of my favorite things to do, in the spirit of making sure I'm always seeing both sides of an issue, is to listen to podcasts of church sermons on messianic prophecy. Nearly every time, when an OT prophetic fulfillment is referenced, the pastor will only read the verse (or portion of a verse) in the OT that the gospel writer referenced, and not the passage as a whole. Case in point - Matthew references how Jesus and his parents went to Egypt, then returned to Israel as a fulfillment of Hosea's (11:1) messianic prophecy of "out of Egypt I called my son". First, Hosea is referencing a PAST event (hint: the opposite of a prophecy) - he's talking about God calling the Israelites out of Egypt where they were being held captive. There is zero debate here. But the fun part is if you read on...in the very next verse it talks about sacrificing to Baals, and burning incense to images! Jeez, what was that NT passage about Jesus - no doubt in his rebellious teenage years - sacrificing to false gods and burning incense? No doubt the incense was to cover the smell of weed. This sort of chicanery is the equivalent of me saying that Genesis, when referring to Eve eating the forbidden fruit, was a prophecy about my wife, and was fulfilled last week when she ate the last banana, which I told her was for my freaking lunch!! Okay, I'm done. 1
RipVanWinkle Posted May 8, 2014 Posted May 8, 2014 Woodsy: You might be interested in a book that reviews apologists' "explanations" of contradictions in the bible. There is no contraction, however clear, that is not rationalized away by apologists. It is actually very laughable. Their answer to your question as to why there are so many contradictions is that there are not any contradictions. It's only heathens and atheists and the like that think there are contradictions because they don't have the holy spirit to make them understand. My question (at least one of them) is, if the holy spirit is what is needed to understand the bible as god,s word, why do we need the bible at all? Why couldn't god communicate directly with us through the holy spirit so there could be no confusion? Of course the answer is that that would take away the role of priests, preachers, evangelists and other frauds who pilfer big bucks from the faithful. This is my thought for the day. bill
sdelsolray Posted May 8, 2014 Posted May 8, 2014 Woodsy: You might be interested in a book that reviews apologists' "explanations" of contradictions in the bible. There is no contraction, however clear, that is not rationalized away by apologists. It is actually very laughable. Their answer to your question as to why there are so many contradictions is that there are not any contradictions. It's only heathens and atheists and the like that think there are contradictions because they don't have the holy spirit to make them understand. My question (at least one of them) is, if the holy spirit is what is needed to understand the bible as god,s word, why do we need the bible at all? Why couldn't god communicate directly with us through the holy spirit so there could be no confusion? Of course the answer is that that would take away the role of priests, preachers, evangelists and other frauds who pilfer big bucks from the faithful. This is my thought for the day. bill In addition, the peddlers of apologetics need to have a special frame of reference, one that the skeptic does not have, to pretend they have secret/special information or insight which addresses the contradiction. Of course, they never provide that secret/special information or insight to the skeptic. They merely claim to have it…hidden within their mind. It's a common parlor trick. 1
questioneverything Posted May 8, 2014 Author Posted May 8, 2014 I agree with all that. I must say I really am surprised that no Christian has even given it the college try to offer a valid explanation for this. Cognitive dissonance at work, I guess.
Fernweh Posted May 8, 2014 Posted May 8, 2014 I agree with all that. I must say I really am surprised that no Christian has even given it the college try to offer a valid explanation for this. Cognitive dissonance at work, I guess. We had some especially obnoxious True Believers a couple of months ago extolling the need for a Personal Relationship with Jesus. If only we could obtain this special relationship we would finally see the light...according to them. So, a thread was started asking these True Believers to define their personal relationship. After 20+ pages of gish-galloping nonsense it was obvious none of them could do it even though many former Christians could. The thread was both fascinating and sad at the same time. http://www.ex-christian.net/topic/60788-christians-define-a-personal-relationship-with-jesus/
amateur Posted May 8, 2014 Posted May 8, 2014 I looked over the referenced sites and this thought came to mind: If God inspired the "infallible" bible to communicate with humans, why is there so many discrepancies and contradictions? You would think that He would have given us clear and simple words that no man would contradict. Instead, we have confusion as to what He really said. And isn't there a scripture that says that God is not a God of confusion? That sums it up for me!!!
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted May 8, 2014 Super Moderator Posted May 8, 2014 I agree with all that. I must say I really am surprised that no Christian has even given it the college try to offer a valid explanation for this. Cognitive dissonance at work, I guess. Perhaps, but also consider that we don't currently have any christians with enough courage to tackle the really hard questions. End3 is the only christian here who ever really works at giving honest answers; the rest just give the canned, pre-packaged, processed cheese answers that you'd expect from a thoughtless, cowardly christian.
mymistake Posted May 8, 2014 Posted May 8, 2014 The Holy Spirit is slacking on the job. Send us more Christians!
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted May 8, 2014 Super Moderator Posted May 8, 2014 The Holy Spirit is slacking on the job. Send us more Christians! Yeah, I'm getting bored.
questioneverything Posted May 8, 2014 Author Posted May 8, 2014 On a side note, I forwarded the Thomas Paine link to my father in law (a former pastor, and very fundamentalist Baptist) a month or so ago right before he went on vacation. He was going to read it, and discuss it with me when he gets back, which will be in a day or so. I'm very interested to see that he says. This is such an interesting one to me because with other Bible problems (contradictions, scientific errors, etc), there are answers people use to address them. Bad answers...illogical answers...WRONG answers....but answers. With this one in particular, I really don't see any answer no matter how much mental gymnastics you're willing to do. End3...anything?
Onyx Posted May 8, 2014 Posted May 8, 2014 Hi, As a Christian, which I was for well over 30 years, I always pointed to the many (hundreds?) of messianic prophecies that were fulfilled by Jesus as an amazing proof of his divinity - how could Jews even dispute this?? As an unbeliever who has spent close to 2 1/2 years researching Christianity, I find it hard to believe that this particular 'proof' could ever be cited. In fact, I will go so far as to say it can ONLY be cited by someone who hasn't spent any time whatsoever actually studying the messianic prophecies. At some point, probably through a recommendation of someone on this site, I read Thomas Paine's Examination of the Prophecies, and was utterly dumbfounded that I had ever been so naive. Paine starts with Matthew, and works his way through the four gospels to show how each of the 'prophecies' are nothing of the sort when read IN CONTEXT (imagine that). Christians will often call out nonbelievers for taking verses of the Bible out of context - and yet ALL of the prophecies in the gospels are ripped, nay TORN out of context to make them sound as though they're pointing to Jesus. Want proof? Easy. Read it for yourself - it's online - link below: http://www.sacred-texts.com/aor/paine/proph.htm I would seriously challenge any Christian to read this and provide a response. Even the virgin birth is shown to have nothing to do with an event that takes place hundreds of years later - unless you take it completely out of context (and change the meaning of the word 'almah'). I brought several of these up to my Pastor when I was still a member of my church, and it was apparent that he had never heard these challenges. And he went to SEMINARY...what are they teaching people...to read selectively, and not dig too deeply into passages? If any Christian has a response to this, please let me know. Thanks. And this hundreds of years ago! How things change...
mymistake Posted May 8, 2014 Posted May 8, 2014 The Holy Spirit is slacking on the job. Send us more Christians! Yeah, I'm getting bored. Well when the next fundie wanders though the door let's not gang up on him 20 at a time. That scares them off too quick.
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted May 9, 2014 Super Moderator Posted May 9, 2014 The Holy Spirit is slacking on the job. Send us more Christians! Yeah, I'm getting bored. Well when the next fundie wanders though the door let's not gang up on him 20 at a time. That scares them off too quick. Agreed. Do you want the first cut?
Guest afireinside Posted May 9, 2014 Posted May 9, 2014 I think we do the good cop-bad cop routine just to soften him up then take him to the cells and beat him with a phonebook-or a Bible
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