Ellinas Posted May 4, 2014 Posted May 4, 2014 Today I saw the latest copy of "Precious Seed", a U.K. Brethren magazine. And I made the fatal mistake. I took a look to see what nonsense would be inside. And I found an article concerning "God's sovereignty in salvation". Apparently: God foreknows and predestines believers (no surprise there - I suspect you all know the texts). God does so for his own glory. We (i.e. believers) should all be so very thankful to god for foreknowing and predestining us. And, by the way, salvation has got nothing to do with our needs - it's all so god will be glorified (oh the selfishness of god's love!). Oh, and just in case I forgot to mention, the fact that believers are foreknown and predestined does not "close the door" on everyone else, (though the reasoning of quite how those who are inevitably damned by being not foreknown or predestined are supposed to have any hope of being saved is not explained; presumably this was just a sop to avoid any suggestion that god is prone to whim and caprice). Yeah - one other thing - god did it this way because man is too untrustworthy for salvation to be left to human whim (presumably because divine whims are far more glorious...) I've been spitting feathers all day since reading this rubbish.
DoubtingNate Posted May 4, 2014 Posted May 4, 2014 This is the rubbish it was raised on, and there was a time when I would argue passionately in support of this.
francesco Posted May 4, 2014 Posted May 4, 2014 Today I saw the latest copy of "Precious Seed", a U.K. Brethren magazine. And I made the fatal mistake. I took a look to see what nonsense would be inside. And I found an article concerning "God's sovereignty in salvation". Apparently: God foreknows and predestines believers (no surprise there - I suspect you all know the texts). God does so for his own glory. We (i.e. believers) should all be so very thankful to god for foreknowing and predestining us. And, by the way, salvation has got nothing to do with our needs - it's all so god will be glorified (oh the selfishness of god's love!). Oh, and just in case I forgot to mention, the fact that believers are foreknown and predestined does not "close the door" on everyone else, (though the reasoning of quite how those who are inevitably damned by being not foreknown or predestined are supposed to have any hope of being saved is not explained; presumably this was just a sop to avoid any suggestion that god is prone to whim and caprice). Yeah - one other thing - god did it this way because man is too untrustworthy for salvation to be left to human whim (presumably because divine whims are far more glorious...) I've been spitting feathers all day since reading this rubbish. in short, god is egomaniac eh?
Bhim Posted May 5, 2014 Posted May 5, 2014 This is the rubbish it was raised on, and there was a time when I would argue passionately in support of this. I wasn't raised on this, but when I was a Christian I too would have ardently supported these Calvinistic doctrines as well.
xtify Posted May 5, 2014 Posted May 5, 2014 So the picking and choosing of who will live in eternal bliss and who will suffer eternal torture illustrates God's glory? I have heard this so many times as a christian, but it still doesn't make any sense. If it was true, it would more prove God is a defective designer keen on making things he doesn't like and then throwing them away.
Overcame Faith Posted May 5, 2014 Posted May 5, 2014 God is glorified by sending some to heaven and the remainder to hell. He receives this glory undoubtedly by constantly reminding those in heaven that unless he is satisfactorily glorified by them that he can always change his mind about who goes where. The glorifying and praising then gets louder and more convincing by those in heaven.
4EverFree Posted May 5, 2014 Posted May 5, 2014 Lots of memories…..i grew up in this sect/cult so quite familiar with the mindset. I never managed to get my head around the ‘many are called but few are chosen’ teaching. If salvation was truly offered to ALL, why did jesus refer only to ‘many’. Plus it seemed sick to offer salvation to the ‘many’ given that only a subset was actually ‘chosen’. To me that always suggested 3 camps - the chosen elite, the unlucky pre-damned folks who weren’t even ‘called’ and those that while they received an invite, the offer wasn’t genuinely extended as they hadn’t been chosen. O this doctrine makes so much sense…….! J
FreeThinkerNZ Posted May 5, 2014 Posted May 5, 2014 Predestination is the doctrine of choice for egotists. I agree with you, but isn't all theism somewhat egotistical?
Ellinas Posted May 5, 2014 Author Posted May 5, 2014 Predestination is the doctrine of choice for egotists. I agree with you, but isn't all theism somewhat egotistical? I don't know. Is it? (Not a loaded question - just wondering what your thoughts are on that...)
sdelsolray Posted May 5, 2014 Posted May 5, 2014 Predestination is the doctrine of choice for egotists. I agree with you, but isn't all theism somewhat egotistical? There certainly seems to be a correlation between egotism and belief in predestination. I do not know whether there is a causal link between the two. Perhaps there are some peer reviewed studies on the question. Perhaps not.
xtify Posted May 5, 2014 Posted May 5, 2014 Predestination is the doctrine of choice for egotists. I agree with you, but isn't all theism somewhat egotistical? There certainly seems to be a correlation between egotism and belief in predestination. I do not know whether there is a causal link between the two. Perhaps there are some peer reviewed studies on the question. Perhaps not. It definitely rings true. I doubt there are any studies to cite though.
xtify Posted May 5, 2014 Posted May 5, 2014 God is glorified by sending some to heaven and the remainder to hell. He receives this glory undoubtedly by constantly reminding those in heaven that unless he is satisfactorily glorified by them that he can always change his mind about who goes where. The glorifying and praising then gets louder and more convincing by those in heaven. Yeah, that's a good point. He has to have the threat of eternal torment to receive the praise. But if he was really intelligent, wouldn't he have just made people who praised him all day who didn't have to be threatened to do so? Apologists usually say he didn't want robots. But threatening people will just make them act like robots, so what's the point? The doctrine of predestination means that god made the whole universe, the earth and every species of life here, and billions of humans, all just to choose a few people. How inefficient! Why does he make so many things he hates? He should have just made a big, burning pile of ram flesh and some robots and called it a day.
Guest afireinside Posted May 5, 2014 Posted May 5, 2014 Predestination is the doctrine of choice for egotists. I agree with you, but isn't all theism somewhat egotistical? Hello all my name is Chosen Elect Ladies and gentlemen I'd like to introduce you to my creator and redeemer. You can look at and admire him but don't dare talk to or approach him, he will not hear you or respond, you are not his divine raffle winners so suck it up, fuck off and enjoy the fire you damned bastards. 1
Ellinas Posted May 6, 2014 Author Posted May 6, 2014 I'm not sure whether it's being suggested in some of the posts above: That all deity posited by theism is/may be egotistical; That all theists are/may be egotistical; Both 1& 2 ante; Neither 1 or 2 ante I can see the rationale for asserting the egotism of at least certain forms of Christianity (as colourfully described in this thread). I'm not sure about the status of theism generally. Then again, maybe I'm a theist on an ego trip...
Recommended Posts