nightflight Posted January 10, 2006 Share Posted January 10, 2006 My 2 cents; I spent about five years thinking I had committed the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. I had to drop out of college because of this; you just can't study when you feel like you are damned to hell. Still pissed off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
not1not2 Posted January 10, 2006 Share Posted January 10, 2006 ...Good, good...now, original poster, if you are coming back and reading this, and want to be spoken to honestly without a lot of condesending talking down to you "...within your belief system..." I will speak to you as an adult and not a child, and tell you some real things that you can do right now to get on top of the feelings that you feel are threatening to overtake you. No nonsense. Shoot me a private message if you like. yes, yes... your maturity shines through like golden rays of sunshine through the clouds... Are you done propping yourself up or do you care to make more unwarranted perceptions about my condesension and/or childishness towards franknhonest? BTW, I was attempting to be respectful of where you are right now, franknhonest, not to be coddling or condescending, aside from projection of other members about my intentions or methods. Take it or leave it. take care _/\_ metta Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charley Posted January 10, 2006 Share Posted January 10, 2006 I'll make some more "unwarranted perceptions", and cite how you describe a career of believing one thing after another shows how absurd it is for you to even approach the problems someone else has in this area. It's like making an alcoholic a bartender, due to his rich and varied experience. Go light a candle and chant somewhere whenever there is real work to be done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
not1not2 Posted January 10, 2006 Share Posted January 10, 2006 I'll make some more "unwarranted perceptions", and cite how you describe a career of believing one thing after another shows how absurd it is for you to even approach the problems someone else has in this area. It's like making an alcoholic a bartender, due to his rich and varied experience. Go light a candle and chant somewhere whenever there is real work to be done. The more you talk, the less it sounds like you have a clue. Studying multiple religions to finally find one that suits my personality, does not constitute the sort of serial belief syndrome you have attributed to me. I never said I believed them, I said I looked into them and researched them, finding things that were revealing and insightful, but none really worked for me. Finally, I found buddhism and have no inclination to move on to any other philosophical or religious tradition. Making such statements based on the extremely brief synapsis of my deconversion process seems illogical and presumptuous. You also seem to be appointing yourself as the supreme judge of what is or isn't appropriate or effective advice here. Sure, franknhonest my not find any value in my posts & may throw them out with the trash. Honestly, I don't care. I'm just offering a different perspective and attempting a different approach than you. Furthermore, ever since you've been posting on this particular thread, you have insulted me in every post. Sounds like you've got it all together, right? Sounds to me like the only one being childish and condescending in this exchange is you. So, are you satisfied yet, or do you for some reason feel the need to continually belittle me based on your incredibly limited knowledge of me. Feel free to make more crappy, non-relevant analogies all you want. I'm sure this is helping franknhonest immeasurably, Mr. Mature-no-nonsense-real-work-guy. lol take care ta ta for now _/\_ metta Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charley Posted January 10, 2006 Share Posted January 10, 2006 Studying multiple religions is a serial belief syndrome. The belief that the answers to anything could be there, and must be there someplace. Like what you finally settled for. But I encourage you to express your views, actually. They are entertaining. Just a lot of crap, that's all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
not1not2 Posted January 10, 2006 Share Posted January 10, 2006 equating study & research with belief requires a redefinition of one term or the other. So saying I am a serial believer simply does not hold up. I could research all sorts of matters and not be a believer of any of them. And quite honestly, as noted previously, a lot of your logic and presumptions are pure crap as well, in my deluded/subjective opinion, so I guess we're in the same boat here. Anyway, take care, or whatever it is that you do. _/\_ metta Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deepblue Posted January 10, 2006 Author Share Posted January 10, 2006 Some helpful responses, thanks. On the depression thing, the depression is a result of what happened but I would have thought that most people with depression don't get it as a result of a breakdown. The "breakdown of conscience" felt very much like a physical thing. Maybe "psychiatric injury" would be a better description, or "breakdown of consciousness". After the break, the "matter" which makes the consciousness complete drained away, leaving an empty shell. Although I am physically alive, I am not really alive to the world but in a sense have left it. Really I am already a dead man. The breakdown is not something I can fix, or I think that God can fix, since there is nothing to work with - no "inner conscious matter" which can feel. This means I am outside the sphere in which God can work. It's like there is a huge circle of consciousness - nearly all the human race within it, and the odd few people like me have stepped outside of it. After the breakdown, the first two weeks got harder and harder until I had to leave work. Most mornings I was waking up in sweat. I smelt death everywhere (how can I describe the smell of death?). After a couple of weeks the sweating wore off. Then one evening when I was reading the Bible I felt an evil presence move into me. This may sound crazy but I could smell a thick scent of sulphur emanating from my hands. I can't really explain it but it was a deep, odious smell. The smell of wrath? According to the Bible I'm in deep trouble: "...If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or his hand, he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name." (Rev 14. 9 - 11). And another verse: "MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF ALL HARLOTS AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH" (Rev 17. 5). Do I sound like a crazy lunatic? The smells wore off but the physical after-effects remain. If you want to believe they were delusions, I respect your point of view. Unfortunately for me the Bible doesn't allow this blasphemy without consequences: "..he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is subject to eternal damnation." (Mark 3.29) I can understand why a breakdown of consciousness would be described as "blasphemy". It's something which affects fundamental human nature. Christianity says people are made in the "image of God", which I always thought meant everyone had the "imprint of God" on them. Consciousness is this imprint. It is the consciousness which can be affected by the Holy Spirit (the "breath of God"). Hence if that degenerates one has effectively blasphemed against the Holy Spirit, because the Spirit can no longer affect the soul. I am of course filtering everything through my own understanding. I was raised in church and have not known any other teaching. I guess all I can do is continue and hope for the best when I die. Jon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
not1not2 Posted January 10, 2006 Share Posted January 10, 2006 So, the smell went away and the feelings are subsiding? That doesn't sound like anything eternal to me. Additionally, at the time of Canonization it was accused that Revelation was written by the person considered by John to be his greatest enemy. I don't remember the name, and my source is secondary (Beyond Belief by Elaine Pagels). Also, people of the Hindu tradition have Hindu-related visions, the Buddhist tradition have Buddhist-related visions, and Christians have Christian-related visions. That doesn't necessarily invalidate or validate them, it just happens when one is really thick into any tradition. Sounds like you had something of a mental break which would have been closely associated with your subconscious impressions associated with your life-long association with Christianity. It is very possible for such an occurence to happen and mean nothing to validate religious beliefs. This sort of thing is a self-feeding cycle which basically shapes and measures all experience in the terms of your Christian mental framework. I imagine this is quite disorienting nonetheless, so I hope you are doing well. take care _/\_ metta Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deepblue Posted January 10, 2006 Author Share Posted January 10, 2006 Good point Metta, thanks. Jon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
not1not2 Posted January 10, 2006 Share Posted January 10, 2006 and as far as the dead-man-walking experience is concerned-been there done that. It's more common than you realize. It's difficult, but it is most-definitely not a death sentence, though you will never be the same. This will likely be a very intense time, where all of your concepts and ideas will put to question. When this happened to me I regarded it with fear/confusion, but now I consider it one of the best things that has ever happened to me. take care _/\_ metta Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charley Posted January 10, 2006 Share Posted January 10, 2006 Hi Jon - I'm glad you came back. I read your latest post. This is what I reccommend : that you seek a psychiatric solution to these feelings that you describe. That should not take very long, perhaps a few months. And you do not have to turn away from christianity to go through this. In short, you can get the help that you need psychiatrically, and after you feel better, you will feel and be totally able to do and think anything that you like. The church will still be there for you. That might sound unexpected coming from me, but I would rather see people be well than be affected as you have been. I think what happened is this, that you did something that you thought was unforgivable, the shock of that drove you into a deep depression, from which you developed this state that is called "depersonalization". Everything that you have written of it describes it well. The central characteristics of it being a sense that you are cut off from life, (dead) even watching yourself do things rather than actually doing them yourself. That is TYPICAL of the MANY THOUSANDS of people who are depressed as you for various reasons. It DOES NOT mean that you are insane or irrevocably ill. What it is is a mechanism that is in everyone that keeps us from being overwhelmed by powerful emotions. There are times when that mechanism works and people find it useful, such as enabling people to function in emergencies, like auto accidents, fires, (etc.). We have all heard of survivors in these cases talk about how they felt as if they were outside of their body, watching themselves do what they needed to do to help themselves and others survive. And that is all you are trying to do now, with this feeling of being detached, because to the deepest parts of you, there has been a percieved threat (blasphemy) that the "all clear" signal has not been granted as yet. This signal can be helped along with medication. That's the beauty of it, because the treating of this with mild medication is very effective. What keeps these states of mind going are imbalabces of brain chemicals, and current science can handle this welll. It's important for you to understand that by my citing various examples of people feeling as you do, that I'm not diminishing how much despair is involved. My emphasis is on how these challenges have been met successfully before, and how those methods are available to you now. There are a few things you can do yourself. One is to work out RELIGIOUSLY if you are fit enough to. Make sure that you have a regular routine and never miss. This creates beneficial chemicals called endorphins which will help your moods immensely. Another is to be aware of your body language. We all know how body language can reveal someones mood, but what some people don't know is that it plays a big part in forming moods, also. So, avoid adopting the postures of the depressed (shoulders drooping, looking down as you walk), and instead walk with your head held high, shoulders back. That will help ligt you out. The main reason that I am putting so much emphasis on your problems is that they can be very dangerous, because your judgement can be severely impaired. So make a promise not to make any important or long range decisions until you are better. Also, you should get some conseling. Send me a note if you like and I can contact some associates to help you with this. You will get through this and get better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deepblue Posted January 12, 2006 Author Share Posted January 12, 2006 Thanks for that. I don't think I'll be seeing a shrink but things are improving with time. Jon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charley Posted January 12, 2006 Share Posted January 12, 2006 Great! This kind of thing "Swings like a pendulum", and it sounds like you are on an upward swing now in feeling better. Don't be surprised or discouraged if you begin to feel depressed again, that's typical, and it won't be as bad as before because now you know that it doesn't last forever. Keep in mind the things I recommended above if you begin to feel badly again, and feel free to contact me anytime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JP1283 Posted February 3, 2006 Share Posted February 3, 2006 Hi Jon. If you were like me, after you realized that you had committed the "unforgivable sin," you searched and searched through what must have seemed like hundreds of web pages about it so you could find out for sure if you had really committed it. Of course, there really could never be any assurance because the anxiety was so great. I was reading through the hate mail on Normalbobsmith.com and came across an e-mail that I assume is from you. http://www.normalbobsmith.com/hatemail238.html In that e-mail, you cite this web page: http://www.geocities.com/unforgivable2005/ Note the fact that nowhere in the Bible does it state that those things happen to those who commit the sin, ergo these "symptoms" that this guy came up with are un-Biblical. Let me ask you this: had you already looked at this web page before the "smell of death" set in and the odor of sulphur was evident? If so, it's probable that those things were already in your mind and it was playing a mean trick on you. Jonathan, from what I've read, I can tell that your conscience isn't "broken." Just like mine isn't broken. If your conscience had been broken and you actually did not have the ability to feel as you've described, you wouldn't even be concerned about making Biblegod angry by saying some stupid phrase or doing whatever it is that you did that you believe is unforgivable. You wouldn't have any caring feelings about anything. Is that how you really feel? Somehow, from what you've written, I can see that you care a lot about what you've done, i.e. you feel remorse, i.e. you feel. Like you, I've spent far too much time worrying and agonizing over the "unforgivable sin." I've come to the realization that, for the most part, it's all in my head. It hasn't been God punishing me, or Satan torturing me, or me stepping outside some imaginary realm of forgiveness. I can completely understand what you're going through, though. The thought that I had done something unforgivable after I was warned not to do it was absolutely terrorizing, something that I will never forget. I can remember the exact moment I realized that I had done it. Talk about a panic attack! Let me give you some good news, though: I for sure have done what the Bible says not to do. I have blasphemied the Holy Spirit on more than one occasion, even after all of this happened. Not once have I smelled any sulphur, or any death, or woke up sweating...any of that. If God is just and fair, then he would have made me go through those things just like you did (not to mention all of my friends and family who blasphemied the Holy Spirit to make me feel better, lol!) Seems to me that either God just likes torturing people with guilt, or it's all a giant joke that our minds are playing on us, caused by the fear that religion has instilled in us. I really hope that you get better. It has taken psychiatry to help me, and I highly recommend it for you. It's not fair to suffer because of this. My thoughts are with you, and please know that we are always here for support if you need it. Believe me, you're not the only one in the world who feels and has felt like this; you are not alone. JP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JimmyDtD Posted February 4, 2006 Share Posted February 4, 2006 Edited for forum violations. Christians: Please actually read the forum guidlines! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fweethawt Posted February 4, 2006 Share Posted February 4, 2006 If you felt an evil presence come into you, perhaps you just picked up a demon. Having a demon is not blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. Having a demon is something that you can be free of if you find the right people to help you. Did someone say, "DEMONS" ? Jimmy, if you happen to get a chance, take a look at the guidelines for posting in the Testimonies section. It's right up there at the top of the page highlighted in what looks to be a pink bar. Perhaps the mods will be kind enough to delete your post and mine once you get a chance to read this. BTW - Welcome back, Jimmy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crazy-tiger Posted February 5, 2006 Share Posted February 5, 2006 It says we're supposed to be encouraging. The poor dude thinks he's going to go to hell because of whatever it was that happend to him. I'm just trying to encourage him that he may have a splinter instead of having cancer. Funny, 'cos it looks like you're trying to convince him he's in need of a tinfoil hat... so to speak. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JimmyDtD Posted February 5, 2006 Share Posted February 5, 2006 Edited for forum violations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loren Posted February 5, 2006 Share Posted February 5, 2006 Welcome, franknhonest. I owe you an apology: I've been remiss in policing this forum and that's why a damned Christian got in here. This is your thread, particularly in this forum, and you shouldn't have to be faced with posts from the very group that harmed you in the first place. This is supposed to be a safe place for you to speak your mind. I'm sorry that I allowed this to happen, and am back to staying on top of that kind of mindless and selfish crap. Loren Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beverly Posted February 12, 2006 Share Posted February 12, 2006 I can guess what happened to you Jon you went to a pentecostal type church, the "being delivered unto Satan" to be taught not to blaspheme, is one of their standard spiritual abuse routines basically, what it is ... they like to pass off that spirit thing they do as if it were "the holy ghost" and if you are not going along with that, they f your head over You didn't blaspheme and God didn't do that thing to you Pastor likes to play god ever see him slay in the spirit? They are indeed dangerous people I survived it Jon it has not been pleasant life it too good for that I want you to know that it's not you there are hundreds and hundreds of victims out there and, I have survived it you can to Beverly Oh, one more thing I never did believe that was "the holy ghost" I think pastor conjures that crap all by himself and, that is the blasphemy, if you go by the bible... the one sin that God will not forgive raising up of false gods and corrupting holy things (that is how they control the congregation, first you get "infilled" and then... pastor plays god) and, the jerk is most likely poorly educated, money grubbing, pervert Beverly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest genesis Posted February 18, 2006 Share Posted February 18, 2006 Some helpful responses, thanks. On the depression thing, the depression is a result of what happened but I would have thought that most people with depression don't get it as a result of a breakdown. The "breakdown of conscience" felt very much like a physical thing. Maybe "psychiatric injury" would be a better description, or "breakdown of consciousness". After the break, the "matter" which makes the consciousness complete drained away, leaving an empty shell. Although I am physically alive, I am not really alive to the world but in a sense have left it. Really I am already a dead man. The breakdown is not something I can fix, or I think that God can fix, since there is nothing to work with - no "inner conscious matter" which can feel. This means I am outside the sphere in which God can work. It's like there is a huge circle of consciousness - nearly all the human race within it, and the odd few people like me have stepped outside of it. After the breakdown, the first two weeks got harder and harder until I had to leave work. Most mornings I was waking up in sweat. I smelt death everywhere (how can I describe the smell of death?). After a couple of weeks the sweating wore off. Then one evening when I was reading the Bible I felt an evil presence move into me. This may sound crazy but I could smell a thick scent of sulphur emanating from my hands. I can't really explain it but it was a deep, odious smell. The smell of wrath? According to the Bible I'm in deep trouble: "...If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or his hand, he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name." (Rev 14. 9 - 11). And another verse: "MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF ALL HARLOTS AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH" (Rev 17. 5). Do I sound like a crazy lunatic? The smells wore off but the physical after-effects remain. If you want to believe they were delusions, I respect your point of view. Unfortunately for me the Bible doesn't allow this blasphemy without consequences: "..he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is subject to eternal damnation." (Mark 3.29) I can understand why a breakdown of consciousness would be described as "blasphemy". It's something which affects fundamental human nature. Christianity says people are made in the "image of God", which I always thought meant everyone had the "imprint of God" on them. Consciousness is this imprint. It is the consciousness which can be affected by the Holy Spirit (the "breath of God"). Hence if that degenerates one has effectively blasphemed against the Holy Spirit, because the Spirit can no longer affect the soul. I am of course filtering everything through my own understanding. I was raised in church and have not known any other teaching. I guess all I can do is continue and hope for the best when I die. Jon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deepblue Posted March 5, 2006 Author Share Posted March 5, 2006 Hi all, thanks for the replies - I'm back! Jon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pandora Posted March 5, 2006 Share Posted March 5, 2006 So are you still worried that you are going to Hell? Or have you been able to explore other theories? Hope you're feeling better... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reverend AtheiStar Posted March 8, 2006 Share Posted March 8, 2006 I thought I once was a Christian but an experience I had last year (April 2005) changed everything. I had a mental breakdown, went through an inner "death phase" and ended up with a void which is hard to explain. I had to take the rest of the year off work. For several months afterwards I was suicidal, although thankfully this has now worn off. What happened? Life can be very depressing but suicide is almost never the answer. Only if you were suffering from some terminal illness and your body was wracked by constant unbearable pain should that be an option. I've always been a supporter of the "right to die." In that specific case I certainly would side with a person who didn't want to go on any more. I don't read the Bible anymore, or pray or go to church. I read the Bible all the time and I'm a very strong Atheist. The Bible is one of the biggest reasons any Atheist could ever want for being an unbeliever. There's so much of an arsenal contained within this tome that it's hard to see it as a benefit to them! Nothing fails like prayer. I'm glad you quit. Some never quit this addiction. It's no different than stroking a rabbit's foot or clasping a four leaf clover. And worst of all it's begging! It's begging an imaginary friend for assistance! Talk about a waste of time! Why not write to Santa and kiss his ass? You might get more gifts at Christmas! I have this knowledge that I made the biggest mistake possible. According to my experience and the Bible, I blasphemed the Holy Ghost. Somehow this is meant to make me worse than Hitler, Stalin, Chairman Mao and Pol Pot put together, although to me this just seems absurd. Hitler was just being a good Christian by killing the enemies of Christ, the Jews. He was very devout and thought that every thing he did was ordained by the Good Lord. So, in reality, you wouldn't be as good as Hitler! Holy Ghost? Fuck the Holy Ghost! I blaspeme this figment of primitive imaginations every chance I get just to prove how utterly worthles this character is. The thought of eternal punishment in a lake of fire is bad enough but how can one cope with the idea of a punishment not only everlasting in duration but also infinite in degree? I may have made a big mistake but this seems way out of proportion. Hell mythology just makes me laugh. How anyone can be scared of this silly nonsense is beyond me. I can't help but think of South Park! Gay Satan is the best! Damn his asshole boyfriend, though! Saddam is always mistreating the poor guy! lol... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reverend AtheiStar Posted March 8, 2006 Share Posted March 8, 2006 Hi all, thanks for the replies - I'm back! Jon. Welcome back, Jon! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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