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Goodbye Jesus

Take Responsibility For Your Job


TheRedneckProfessor

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Job was a righteous man.  Like the rest of us, he was just muddling on through life, doing the best he could with what he had to work with.  Then one day god (the same god who commanded us to “shun the very appearance of evil”) was sitting in his throne room up in heaven, enjoying a nice concert of angels singing “holy, holy, holy” for the umpteenth time, and entertaining a guest.  His guest was none other than Lucifer, the accuser of the brethren.  Now, god got to wagging his chin about what a good servant Job was, boasting that Lucifer didn’t have such good and righteous servants as Job, and implying that all of Lucifer’s servants were evil, sinful wrong-doers.  Lucifer decided to call god’s hand and offered to test Job and see how faithful he really was.

 

god agreed…

 

So Lucifer was set free to handle Job however he saw fit, with the condition that he not kill the man.  Famine, pestilence, death, and poverty ensued; but Job remained righteous.  The deaths of his innocent children did not shake his faith in his god.  The loss of his livestock and all his earthly goods and possession did not break his trust in his god.  Indeed, with great humility and patience, Job continued to serve his god with righteousness.  Job only asked, “Why?”  Did Job not have the right to know why such tribulation had befallen him?  Was he not entitled to an explanation for the calamity his life had become?  Job asked what anyone in his situation would ask.  He simply wanted a fair answer to what had happened to him.

 

And god responded…

 

By showing up in a whirlwind and saying, “Who are you to question me, boy?  Were you there when I created behemoth and leviathan?  Did you see me when I held the waters of the earth in the palm of my hand?  You are nothing; I am god!  Do not question my mysterious ways!”  This was the response of the god to whom Job had been so faithful.

 

It would appear that god did not want to take responsibility for his part in what had befallen Job.  It was, after all, god’s boastful mouth and his willingness to give Lucifer permission, which landed Job in the muck and mire of misfortune.  It was, after all, god’s obsession with always being right that drove the brinkmanship from taking away Job’s possessions in the beginning, straight through to slaughtering his children and ruining his health.  Yet, rather than accepting the responsibility for his own actions, god simply continued to boast!  All he did while shouting Job down was brag about what an awesome god he is.  Yet the glaring fact remains, god refused to take responsibility.

 

Of course, Job was simply one man.  His family was simply one family.  We all know that the problems of one man, or even one family, hardly amount to a drop in the ocean.  But surely, if god committed an act that would affect 10 families, he’d take responsibility.  Certainly if god’s mistakes were to affect an entire nation, he’d own up.  Or would he?  What if god committed an act that would affect all of humanity for all time?  Would he be “man” enough to accept the blame that resulted?

 

In a recent thread (god Is A Liar http://www.ex-christian.net/topic/61193-god-is-a-liar/), I demonstrated that god not only withheld vital information concerning the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, but he also blatantly lied about the consequences.  I now intend to reveal god’s motivation for doing so.  god did so, not only in order to escape taking responsibility for his own mistake, but also in order to lay the blame squarely upon the shoulders of someone else, giving himself an excuse to curse humanity forever.

 

Long before the birth of christ, a fellow by the name of Epicurus had this to say:

 

“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?

 

Equally long before the birth of christ, a fellow by the name of Isaiah said this:

 

“I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.” Isaiah 45:7

 

Well, Epicurus, there’s your answer.  god is neither willing nor able to prevent evil; in fact, he created it.

 

Now, let’s take a closer look at the supposed “fall of mankind” from the book of Genesis.  Let us call god’s motivation into question that we might examine it objectively.  The text is as follows:

 

And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

And the Lord God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.

And out of the ground made the Lord God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

15 And the Lord God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.

16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:

17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

18 And the Lord God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.

21 And the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof;

22 And the rib, which the Lord God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.

Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:

But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

23 Therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.

24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life. Genesis 2&3

 

As the choice between good and evil was embodied in the fruit, we see that evil was already present in the world.  It did not come after the fruit was eaten, as some would invite us to believe; clearly, if evil was a choice, then it must already have been present.  Therefore, god’s claim that he created evil is true.  Evil exists because god created it, not because anybody ate any fruit.

 

The text also makes it clear to us that god spoke only to Adam about the fruit; he never spoke to Eve.  god also, incidentally left out any mention of Original Sin and eternal conscious torment in hell.  Further, the text demonstrates that Eve misunderstood the message about the fruit; she had the impression that they were not even to touch the fruit, though god never mentioned touching it.

 

god, in his omniscience, knew that Eve, the least informed of all, would be the first one tempted by the fruit.  Yet he did nothing to prevent it from happening; he offered no warning to her at all.  Why?

 

The text further demonstrates that Adam and Eve were never truly innocent before “the fall”, as some would have us believe.  When the serpent told Eve that she would be like god and know the difference between good and evil, Eve felt both envy and pride.  She envied god knowing the difference, and was prideful enough to want to be like god.  Envy and pride are both “sins”; and Eve was capable of feeling them, even before she ate the fruit.  Thus we see that not only was evil already present in the world, but sinfulness was also already present in the hearts of Adam and Eve.

 

god, as stated before, mentioned only death as a consequence of eating the fruit.  he never mentioned that sin would enter into Adam’s and Eve’s heart, nor did he warn them that hellfire and eternal damnation awaited their souls.  Why do you think he failed to mention any of it?  Perhaps it was because god wanted Adam and Eve to eat the fruit.  And why would god want them to eat the fruit?  Perhaps it was because god wanted someone to blame for the evil that we know he created.

 

god  did everything in his power to ensure that Adam and Eve ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, from planting the tree in the first place, to ensuring that Eve would be the first one to talk to the snake.  god created them with the capacity to sin, set them into a situation wherein that capacity would inevitably express itself, and then sat back and watched it all play out.  Why?

 

he did so in order to keep himself from having to accept responsibility for creating evil and unleashing it upon the world.  he created Adam and Eve specifically to be his scapegoats.  he didn’t mention Original Sin and eternal hellfire because that might have kept them from committing the first sin, thereby blowing his whole plan to enslave humanity under the vicious yoke of sin and salvation.  he did it because he created evil but wanted to blame someone else for it.  he did it because god refuses to take responsibility for his mistakes!  Just as god refused to take responsibility for the evil that befell Job, so god refuses to take responsibility for the Job of creating evil.

 

Now apologists of every flavor and stripe will invite us to believe that god ultimately did take responsibility in the sacrificial death of jesus.  There are three problems with this argument that I can think of (and greater minds than mine might think of even more).  Firstly, it has yet to be demonstrably proven that jesus was, in fact, god.  For us to accept that jesus death had any significance toward personal sin, or, on a greater scale, evil, we must first accept that jesus was god, or the son of god, or part of the trinity.  We have nothing but fifth-hand information about jesus that was written decades after jesus supposedly lived—hardly compelling evidence.

 

Secondly, even if we accept that jesus was real and that he really did die, a simple scan of a local newspaper on any given day is proof positive that his death did nothing to abate the evil that is just as rampant in this world as ever it was.  Evil remains with us, affecting us all; how dare one make the claim that god took responsibility for creating it by killing his son?

 

Thirdly, far from alleviating the problem of evil, christ’s death only allows a select few to be redeemed from the consequences of Original Sin.  Only those who believe in jesus will be spared eternal damnation; yet even they are still subject to the evil that pervades our world.  Since evil has affected every human throughout history, how can god claim to take responsibility by simply saving a few good men from hell?

 

god did a horrible Job by creating evil; just as god was horribly evil in the way he treated Job.  Yet, to this day, he has never confessed or owned up to his own mistakes and misdeeds.  Don’t you think, if there really is a god, that it’s high time he took responsibility for the evil he created?

 

 

*Texts pulled from http://www.biblegateway.com/

 

 

 

 

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I used to be in awe at the story of Job. Now I see it as one of the most ridiculous stories in the bible.

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Guest end3

It appears from the Genesis story and the Job story and your take, and maybe Satan's is that we would be in better control of our own destiny? Regardless of whether God created evil or purple people eaters, I think we would want to be the master. As you point out, media demonstrates our lack of control and selfish need to control.

 

Don't think God withheld the information that few would make the cut....

 

So please humor me with speculation....why does humanity have problems with God's sovereignty?

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So please humor me with speculation....why does humanity have problems with God's sovereignty?

 Because god has done such a pitiful job at being sovereign.

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What sovereignty?? 

How can god be sovereign and let 270 teenage girls be taken hostage in nigeria?

Do you honestly not question his sovereignty in light of what happens in the world?  

Why would god sit back and just watch injustice happen to innocents if truly sovereign?  Blaming 'satan' for such atrocities does not even begin to resolve these questions. 

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What sovereignty?? 

How can god be sovereign and let 270 teenage girls be taken hostage in nigeria?

Do you honestly not question his sovereignty in light of what happens in the world?  

Why would god sit back and just watch injustice happen to innocents if truly sovereign?  Blaming 'satan' for such atrocities does not even begin to resolve these questions. 

I was angry at god for the longest time for atrocities just like this.  Realizing that he doesn't exist made me understand that these things are just a part of living in a universe which in its very nature is chaotic and often violent. 

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To be subjugated under sovereign rule one must first recognize the sovereignty of the ruler. History shows us that kingdoms and empires claim sovereign territory by way of armies and laying siege to cities. The occupants either fight to the death to defend their own sovereignty or make deals with the king or empire and exchange subjugation for protection. These invading forces tend to reveal themselves with cannons, aircraft carriers, and smart bombs.

 

Humanity does not have a problem recognizing god's sovereignty. Humanity has a problem of expanding it's own territories in the name of it's gods.

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Why must we hold god to a much lower standard than we hold any elected human official?  Not going into national politics, but we hold local elected leaders to a much greater scrutiny than we do god.

This is yet another casual brush off of all of the bible god's atrocities.  "What's your problem with god?  Why not let him rule your life?" 

 

I might be a person like any other, who has flaws, imperfections, and just cobbling along.  But I can sure damn well do better than genocide, slavery, and sexual violations.

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I would further ask this question:  If I, as a moral and ethical human being, would, left to my own devices, willingly choose good over evil, then why should I be expected to accept the sovereignty of a god who not only brags about creating evil, but also does nothing to prevent it, despite claiming to have the ability to do so?  Why should my morality be subjegated by his, when his is clearly less than mine?

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Don't forget the eternal BBQ pit you're going to be sent to if you make the obviously immoral choice to not be a sheep. 

 

Not making god your life's sovereign = hell

God creating evil = good since he's god

 

Might is right < Right is right

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Here's a question for you, End3:  In your opinion, what does god's supposed sovereignty have to do with him creating evil and blaming it on Adam and Eve?  Do you think his actions, as presented in his holy book, might have something to do with why people are so reluctant to recognize his sovereignty?  

 

I'm asking because I'm curious why your initial response to this topic was to appeal to god's sovereignty; obviously your mind made some sort of connection.

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The more I've studied the bible the more I've come to see god as a spider.  That would make a lot of sense if bible god is the actual creator of spiders.  "Come unto me".....come, come, come unto me, just a bit closer, and the more you trust the closer you come to the web, and eventually you are right where he wants you, as tangled up and helpless as old Job was and completely at his mercy.  If this god is real he seems to be toying with us like a spider would.  I'm not stupid enough to trust him anymore.  Job trusted him and lost everything, Adam and Eve trusted him and got cast out, Jesus trusted him and got crucified.  There are no winners in this game.  "Oh but he'll make everything alright in heaven" is a-mum's answer.  And I want to scream at her, how could you trust someone this shady?  Isn't heaven just another trick like the apple tree was? 

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The best bosses, leaders and generals take responsibility for those under them, when an incident happens the ones with integrity don't roll over on the ones who serve under them.

 

God should either undo what he has done or he should condemn HIMSELF to hell in OUR place. He is the root of all evil and the source of all sin. All sin is found in HIM. He gets jealous, angry, murderous etc, we inherited his mess not our own. He IS original sin and he deserves nothing less than eternal punishment. No excuses, we fry because he stoked the fire and he made us stand on the trapdoor above the firepit, he said if we move it opens and he gave us the movement to ensure it did.

 

GOD IS EVIL

 

End of story

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Christians are so shit scared of joining us in hell they can't see past the fact that the God they serve is an immoral, sadistic coward!

 

No apologetics or Bible quoting can change my mind, if it looks like shit, smells like shit and tastes like shit you got shit on your plate, don't fucking tell me it's chocolate sorbet!!

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No apologetics or Bible quoting can change my mind, if it looks like shit, smells like shit and tastes like shit you got shit on your plate, don't fucking tell me it's chocolate sorbet!!

Ha! Excellent statement! :-)
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The more I've studied the bible the more I've come to see god as a spider.  That would make a lot of sense if bible god is the actual creator of spiders.  "Come unto me".....come, come, come unto me, just a bit closer, and the more you trust the closer you come to the web, and eventually you are right where he wants you, as tangled up and helpless as old Job was and completely at his mercy.  If this god is real he seems to be toying with us like a spider would.  I'm not stupid enough to trust him anymore.  Job trusted him and lost everything, Adam and Eve trusted him and got cast out, Jesus trusted him and got crucified.  There are no winners in this game.  "Oh but he'll make everything alright in heaven" is a-mum's answer.  And I want to scream at her, how could you trust someone this shady?  Isn't heaven just another trick like the apple tree was? 

I trusted god, too, and my youth, my money, my talents, and so much of my life got squandered as a result.  Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice... nah, ain't gonna happen. 

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Christians are so shit scared of joining us in hell they can't see past the fact that the God they serve is an immoral, sadistic coward!

 

No apologetics or Bible quoting can change my mind, if it looks like shit, smells like shit and tastes like shit you got shit on your plate, don't fucking tell me it's chocolate sorbet!!

 

Hell, most of the christians I know would be only too happy to supply the firewood because they are just as immoral and sadistic as their god. 

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Sad, but true.

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The more I've studied the bible the more I've come to see god as a spider.  That would make a lot of sense if bible god is the actual creator of spiders.  "Come unto me".....come, come, come unto me, just a bit closer, and the more you trust the closer you come to the web, and eventually you are right where he wants you, as tangled up and helpless as old Job was and completely at his mercy.  If this god is real he seems to be toying with us like a spider would.  I'm not stupid enough to trust him anymore.  Job trusted him and lost everything, Adam and Eve trusted him and got cast out, Jesus trusted him and got crucified.  There are no winners in this game.  "Oh but he'll make everything alright in heaven" is a-mum's answer.  And I want to scream at her, how could you trust someone this shady?  Isn't heaven just another trick like the apple tree was? 

 

 

Brilliant.

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Prof, seems like Isa 45 pretty much covers the sovereignty thing. Israel's sanctification/salvation for the earth to be inhabited because God says so. God seems rather adamant about that. Guessing the free will/predestination mechanism being the vehicle to populate earth with those who have acknowledged God in this way. So you present humanity with the choice and select those that said, Ok God, I don't understand, but I know you will prevail.

 

End3's theodicy....lol

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Prof, seems like Isa 45 pretty much covers the sovereignty thing. Israel's sanctification/salvation for the earth to be inhabited because God says so. God seems rather adamant about that. Guessing the free will/predestination mechanism being the vehicle to populate earth with those who have acknowledged God in this way. So you present humanity with the choice and select those that said, Ok God, I don't understand, but I know you will prevail.

 

End3's theodicy....lol

 

I wonder what God was thinking five million years ago when there were no humans.  And seventy million years ago when dinosaurs were roaming around was it because God prophesied to a raptor that God was sovereign?  Perhaps too many dinosaurs wouldn't submit to God's endless love so God killed them all. 

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Prof, seems like Isa 45 pretty much covers the sovereignty thing. Israel's sanctification/salvation for the earth to be inhabited because God says so. God seems rather adamant about that. Guessing the free will/predestination mechanism being the vehicle to populate earth with those who have acknowledged God in this way. So you present humanity with the choice and select those that said, Ok God, I don't understand, but I know you will prevail.

 

End3's theodicy....lol

Are you suggesting that we should just trust god despite the fact that he intentionally witheld information in order to blame Adam and Eve (and by default, the rest of us!) for the evil he created?  If so, can you explain to me how I can trust a man that I know lied in order for someone else to take the blame for his own crime?  Can you trust such a man? 

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Prof, seems like Isa 45 pretty much covers the sovereignty thing. Israel's sanctification/salvation for the earth to be inhabited because God says so. God seems rather adamant about that. Guessing the free will/predestination mechanism being the vehicle to populate earth with those who have acknowledged God in this way. So you present humanity with the choice and select those that said, Ok God, I don't understand, but I know you will prevail.

 

End3's theodicy....lol

Are you suggesting that we should just trust god despite the fact that he intentionally witheld information in order to blame Adam and Eve (and by default, the rest of us!) for the evil he created?  If so, can you explain to me how I can trust a man that I know lied in order for someone else to take the blame for his own crime?  Can you trust such a man?

 

What in you opinion would be the pinnacle of trust? The Bible does suggest this is a test, no?

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Why must we hold god to a much lower standard than we hold any elected human official?  Not going into national politics, but we hold local elected leaders to a much greater scrutiny than we do god.

This is yet another casual brush off of all of the bible god's atrocities.  "What's your problem with god?  Why not let him rule your life?" 

 

I might be a person like any other, who has flaws, imperfections, and just cobbling along.  But I can sure damn well do better than genocide, slavery, and sexual violations.

I'm not so sure about this. pretty much just like God they are above the law and free from any real consequences to their actions.  out side of bitching on the internet nothing has ever been done to deal with corruption. 

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Prof, seems like Isa 45 pretty much covers the sovereignty thing. Israel's sanctification/salvation for the earth to be inhabited because God says so. God seems rather adamant about that. Guessing the free will/predestination mechanism being the vehicle to populate earth with those who have acknowledged God in this way. So you present humanity with the choice and select those that said, Ok God, I don't understand, but I know you will prevail.

 

End3's theodicy....lol

 

I wonder what God was thinking five million years ago when there were no humans.  And seventy million years ago when dinosaurs were roaming around was it because God prophesied to a raptor that God was sovereign?  Perhaps too many dinosaurs wouldn't submit to God's endless love so God killed them all. 

 

I think that's a good point, mymistake.  There were millions of years of dinosaurs, millions of years before the dinosaurs, millions and millions of years without people.  Did it take god that long to figure out that he should make something in his own image that could acknowledge him?  What was the point of those millions of years?

 

And I'm not even dealing with any stupid young earth theories.  Or the "a day is like a thousand years" crap.  I'm just curious about why god would have waited millions upon millions of years to get around to something that was in his image and could somehow relate to him?  To me, the obvious answer is that the original people who came up with the bible myths didn't realize those millions of years, so their explanation of where we had come from and why we are here revolved around their idea of an Adam and Eve that were created in the first week to be with god, which makes sense coming from what they understood of the earth and life.  But to still believe that?  How do xians make sense of that?  I have to admit I have never heard any explanation of it, to this day it's always "god created everything in one week" and "a day could be like a thousand years" so we're just talking some thousands of years, not millions and millions.  And millions.

 

It's actually funny that adults believe in this stuff and defend it!

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