Christian Spiritual Experiences

[directionless]

Anybody else out there had Christian spiritual experiences that seemed to provide evidence that Christianity is true or that something like God might interact with people through the symbols of Christianity?  How did you deal with that data in your effort to exit Christianity?

 

I've been trying two strategies:

- convincing myself that I had psychosis

- convincing myself that Jesus was not a Christian

 

Any other suggestions?

[TheRedneckProfessor]

I recommend getting a psychology textbook.  Every spiritual experience I ever had was purely psychological.  Studying it helped me realize how powerful the human mind is when compared to the spirit of god.

[par4dcourse]

It's part light hypnosis, the rhythmic music and sermon, and part mass hysteria with some expectation/confirmation bias thrown in. Step back and mentally examine what you were experiencing. Was there anything that couldn't be explained by endorphins and dopamine?

 

These sort of concerns diminish with time, don't be in a hurry to figure it all out.

[directionless]

I recommend getting a psychology textbook.  Every spiritual experience I ever had was purely psychological.  Studying it helped me realize how powerful the human mind is when compared to the spirit of god.

 

I described my experiences to a therapist, and she told me it was psychosis.  I also read "Hallucinations" by Oliver Sacks.

 

One difficulty I have fully accepting this explanation is that when I discuss my experiences on psychological forums with genuine mentally ill people there are differences.  Most of those people need medication and most of them know they have a mental illness.  Also most of them experience psychosis more continuously and over a longer duration.  In my case usually I'm feeling perfectly normal and then something weird happens and then it's over.  Usually it lasts only a few seconds but sometimes it might last longer.  It is hard to know when I'm hallucinating and when I'm not hallucinating, because hallucinations can be very realistic apparently.

 

It's not a problem for me much anymore though.  If I start remembering I get shaky and depressed that I don't know what was real and what wasn't real.

 

Some of these experiences were religious things like seeing Jesus and some were just bizarre.  It should be obvious they were all psychological, but it's a struggle for me to accept that.

[directionless]

It's part light hypnosis, the rhythmic music and sermon, and part mass hysteria with some expectation/confirmation bias thrown in. Step back and mentally examine what you were experiencing. Was there anything that couldn't be explained by endorphins and dopamine?

 

These sort of concerns diminish with time, don't be in a hurry to figure it all out.

 

Thanks.  I never experienced the Holy Spirit like many Christians, but probably hypnosis and hysteria explain a lot of that.  I don't know.  I always wanted to experience the Holy Spirit to confirm my faith, but I always felt rejected by God.

 

I think I am a person that needs to aggressively disprove things to myself because otherwise I tend to think they might be possible.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

 

I recommend getting a psychology textbook.  Every spiritual experience I ever had was purely psychological.  Studying it helped me realize how powerful the human mind is when compared to the spirit of god.

 

I described my experiences to a therapist, and she told me it was psychosis.  I also read "Hallucinations" by Oliver Sacks.

 

One difficulty I have fully accepting this explanation is that when I discuss my experiences on psychological forums with genuine mentally ill people there are differences.  Most of those people need medication and most of them know they have a mental illness.  Also most of them experience psychosis more continuously and over a longer duration.  In my case usually I'm feeling perfectly normal and then something weird happens and then it's over.  Usually it lasts only a few seconds but sometimes it might last longer.  It is hard to know when I'm hallucinating and when I'm not hallucinating, because hallucinations can be very realistic apparently.

 

It's not a problem for me much anymore though.  If I start remembering I get shaky and depressed that I don't know what was real and what wasn't real.

 

Some of these experiences were religious things like seeing Jesus and some were just bizarre.  It should be obvious they were all psychological, but it's a struggle for me to accept that.

 

This was one of the things which kept me holding on to my faith long after it was evident that my faith had been shattered to pieces.  I didn't want to accept that all I had experienced for my entire life was simply a psychological phenomenon.  In the end, though, the only way I could hold on to what sanity I have was to embrace the fact. 

[Guest afireinside]

 

 

It's part light hypnosis, the rhythmic music and sermon, and part mass hysteria with some expectation/confirmation bias thrown in. Step back and mentally examine what you were experiencing. Was there anything that couldn't be explained by endorphins and dopamine?

 

These sort of concerns diminish with time, don't be in a hurry to figure it all out.

Thanks. I never experienced the Holy Spirit like many Christians, but probably hypnosis and hysteria explain a lot of that. I don't know. I always wanted to experience the Holy Spirit to confirm my faith, but I always felt rejected by God.

 

I think I am a person that needs to aggressively disprove things to myself because otherwise I tend to think they might be possible.

I felt the same way, I was frustrated I never could experience the power of the Spirit. I blamed myself but maybe I was lucky I never got sucked into the whole thing.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

 

 

It's part light hypnosis, the rhythmic music and sermon, and part mass hysteria with some expectation/confirmation bias thrown in. Step back and mentally examine what you were experiencing. Was there anything that couldn't be explained by endorphins and dopamine?

 

These sort of concerns diminish with time, don't be in a hurry to figure it all out.

Thanks. I never experienced the Holy Spirit like many Christians, but probably hypnosis and hysteria explain a lot of that. I don't know. I always wanted to experience the Holy Spirit to confirm my faith, but I always felt rejected by God.

 

I think I am a person that needs to aggressively disprove things to myself because otherwise I tend to think they might be possible.

I felt the same way, I was frustrated I never could experience the power of the Spirit. I blamed myself but maybe I was lucky I never got sucked into the whole thing.

 

Well, frustrating as it may have been not to experience the power of the spirit, the truth is, I never truly experienced it either.  My experiences felt real at the time but it is no different from an alien abductee feeling their experience was real.  In the beginning, I just pretended in order to achieve acceptance from my environment.  Eventually, it became real in my mind.  But, in reality, neither of us ever experienced the power of the spirit. 

[Neverlandrut]

Anybody else out there had Christian spiritual experiences that seemed to provide evidence that Christianity is true or that something like God might interact with people through the symbols of Christianity? How did you deal with that data in your effort to exit Christianity?

 

I've been trying two strategies:

- convincing myself that I had psychosis

- convincing myself that Jesus was not a Christian

 

Any other suggestions?

I had some intense experiences myself. I felt the rush of emotion in worship. I spoke in tongues and felt like it was god speaking through me rather than me making it happen. I held on to that as evidence for a long time. I've studies psychology in a very limited capacity, but can see how those experiences were probably something like placebo effect. If you expect to feel a certain way, or expect something like tongues to manifest, the strength of the desire for it is enough to cause it in some cases.

[Neverlandrut]

It's part light hypnosis, the rhythmic music and sermon, and part mass hysteria with some expectation/confirmation bias thrown in. Step back and mentally examine what you were experiencing. Was there anything that couldn't be explained by endorphins and dopamine?

 

These sort of concerns diminish with time, don't be in a hurry to figure it all out.

I agree that confirmation bias plays a big role. If you want something to be true regardless of evidence to the contrary, then anything that remotely seems to support the belief will be viewed as confirmation of it.

[directionless]

 

 

I recommend getting a psychology textbook.  Every spiritual experience I ever had was purely psychological.  Studying it helped me realize how powerful the human mind is when compared to the spirit of god.

 

I described my experiences to a therapist, and she told me it was psychosis.  I also read "Hallucinations" by Oliver Sacks.

 

One difficulty I have fully accepting this explanation is that when I discuss my experiences on psychological forums with genuine mentally ill people there are differences.  Most of those people need medication and most of them know they have a mental illness.  Also most of them experience psychosis more continuously and over a longer duration.  In my case usually I'm feeling perfectly normal and then something weird happens and then it's over.  Usually it lasts only a few seconds but sometimes it might last longer.  It is hard to know when I'm hallucinating and when I'm not hallucinating, because hallucinations can be very realistic apparently.

 

It's not a problem for me much anymore though.  If I start remembering I get shaky and depressed that I don't know what was real and what wasn't real.

 

Some of these experiences were religious things like seeing Jesus and some were just bizarre.  It should be obvious they were all psychological, but it's a struggle for me to accept that.

 

This was one of the things which kept me holding on to my faith long after it was evident that my faith had been shattered to pieces.  I didn't want to accept that all I had experienced for my entire life was simply a psychological phenomenon.  In the end, though, the only way I could hold on to what sanity I have was to embrace the fact. 

 

Have you considered the possibility that something is behind these phenomena other than psychology?  Like maybe the Force or the Great Spirit causes people to have spiritual experiences in their native culture whether it is Christian, Hindu, Muslim, ...?

 

This idea bothers me to be honest, but sometimes I think about it anyway.   I much prefer atheism.

[directionless]

I felt the same way, I was frustrated I never could experience the power of the Spirit. I blamed myself but maybe I was lucky I never got sucked into the whole thing.

I'm beginning to think the same thing about it. I have enough problems vacillating between belief and unbelief without having experienced speaking in tongues and the other gifts of the Spirit.

 

Well, frustrating as it may have been not to experience the power of the spirit, the truth is, I never truly experienced it either.  My experiences felt real at the time but it is no different from an alien abductee feeling their experience was real.  In the beginning, I just pretended in order to achieve acceptance from my environment.  Eventually, it became real in my mind.  But, in reality, neither of us ever experienced the power of the spirit.

Hmmm. I wish I could reach that level of certainty. Rationally I should be there already. What you said earlier about your reluctance to accept reality is true.

  

I had some intense experiences myself. I felt the rush of emotion in worship. I spoke in tongues and felt like it was god speaking through me rather than me making it happen. I held on to that as evidence for a long time. I've studies psychology in a very limited capacity, but can see how those experiences were probably something like placebo effect. If you expect to feel a certain way, or expect something like tongues to manifest, the strength of the desire for it is enough to cause it in some cases.

I read that Greek pagans also spoke in tongues sometimes. Sometimes I think my best strategy is to do as much research as I can. I'm not like those people who can disbelieve simply because there is no positive evidence. I need negative evidence.

[xtify]

This lecture by Psychiatrist, Dr. Andy Thompson might help you.  The human mind looks for patterns and faces.  It's like, if you look at a tree's bark and you see a face in it, you will continue to see the face after you have decided it's there and might actually start to think it has the personality of the face.  Then you have to remind yourself that it is just a tree and not really a sad tree or trying to secretly tell you it's sad.  It's a bi-product of human perception.

[Neverlandrut]

It's part light hypnosis, the rhythmic music and sermon, and part mass hysteria with some expectation/confirmation bias thrown in. Step back and mentally examine what you were experiencing. Was there anything that couldn't be explained by endorphins and dopamine?

 

These sort of concerns diminish with time, don't be in a hurry to figure it all out.

I agree that confirmation bias plays a big role. If you want something to be true regardless of evidence to the contrary, then anything that remotely seems to support the belief will be viewed as confirmation of it.

[directionless]

This lecture by Psychiatrist, Dr. Andy Thompson might help you.  The human mind looks for patterns and faces.  It's like, if you look at a tree's bark and you see a face in it, you will continue to see the face after you have decided it's there and might actually start to think it has the personality of the face.  Then you have to remind yourself that it is just a tree and not really a sad tree or trying to secretly tell you it's sad.  It's a bi-product of human perception.

That was an interesting video. I have a long way to go due to an extra irrational mind.

[FreeThinkerNZ]

 

I recommend getting a psychology textbook.  Every spiritual experience I ever had was purely psychological.  Studying it helped me realize how powerful the human mind is when compared to the spirit of god.

 

I described my experiences to a therapist, and she told me it was psychosis.  I also read "Hallucinations" by Oliver Sacks.

 

One difficulty I have fully accepting this explanation is that when I discuss my experiences on psychological forums with genuine mentally ill people there are differences.  Most of those people need medication and most of them know they have a mental illness.  Also most of them experience psychosis more continuously and over a longer duration.  In my case usually I'm feeling perfectly normal and then something weird happens and then it's over.  Usually it lasts only a few seconds but sometimes it might last longer.  It is hard to know when I'm hallucinating and when I'm not hallucinating, because hallucinations can be very realistic apparently.

 

It's not a problem for me much anymore though.  If I start remembering I get shaky and depressed that I don't know what was real and what wasn't real.

 

Some of these experiences were religious things like seeing Jesus and some were just bizarre.  It should be obvious they were all psychological, but it's a struggle for me to accept that.

 

Psychosis was an unfortunate choice of word for the therapist.  True psychosis is the kind of mental state that will get a person medicated, sometimes forcibly, and if so, locked up for a time.  Unfortunately the word also has a vague meaning: any psychological state that is not "normal" in the strictest sense of the word.  I think the vague meaning was what the therapist had in mind.

 

I prefer to call xianity a delusion.  I am now ok with the fact that for most of my life I lived under the delusion that a god exists and is interested in my life and listens to my thoughts.  It took time for me to become ok with that and to forgive myself for falling for it.  It helps that I realise I contracted a virus from my parents.  The biology of the developing brain ensures that children trust their caregiving adults, they need to do it for survival.

 

Keep reading and researching like you are doing, eventually you will learn enough to satisfy yourself that the probability that god exists is very, very, very small.

[FreeThinkerNZ]

 

 

That was an interesting video. I have a long way to go due to an extra irrational mind.

 

Just a thought... maybe your mind is not extra irrational at all, maybe your mind is capable of at least average rationalism but it has been affected by the god delusion and is currently recovering from that.  You're probably 95% free of xianity.  Nearly there, mate.

[Orbit]

It was an altered state of consciousness, no more. It was real to you because your brain chemistry made it seem real. The important thing to know is that it came from *within* you, not from God, not from the outside. That's my perspective on it. People are highly suggestible and you can talk yourself into a "religious experience" when in a highly emotional state.

[directionless]

Psychosis was an unfortunate choice of word for the therapist.  True psychosis is the kind of mental state that will get a person medicated, sometimes forcibly, and if so, locked up for a time.  Unfortunately the word also has a vague meaning: any psychological state that is not "normal" in the strictest sense of the word.  I think the vague meaning was what the therapist had in mind.

 

I prefer to call xianity a delusion.  I am now ok with the fact that for most of my life I lived under the delusion that a god exists and is interested in my life and listens to my thoughts.  It took time for me to become ok with that and to forgive myself for falling for it.  It helps that I realise I contracted a virus from my parents.  The biology of the developing brain ensures that children trust their caregiving adults, they need to do it for survival.

 

Keep reading and researching like you are doing, eventually you will learn enough to satisfy yourself that the probability that god exists is very, very, very small.

What I experienced was very scary at first, but it only lasted a couple of weeks and then gradually tailed off. For the next couple of years I experienced isolated brief hallucinations every month or so and then even that tailed off. The closest match I could find was brief reactive psychosis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brief_reactive_psychosis), but that's not a perfect match either.

 

When I described it to a therapist a couple years later, she thought it was a mild type of persecutory delusional disorder (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delusional_disorder), and she suggested I have medication in case it happens again. I think that was an overreaction.

 

At the time it happened, I thought it was spiritual so I became very religious. Sometimes I wonder if it was partly psychosis and partly spiritual. There is a book I've been thinking of buying called "The Irreducible Mind: Toward a Psychology for the 21st Century" by Kelly.

 

Probably I need to stop trying to figure it out and move on.

[directionless]

It was an altered state of consciousness, no more. It was real to you because your brain chemistry made it seem real. The important thing to know is that it came from *within* you, not from God, not from the outside. That's my perspective on it. People are highly suggestible and you can talk yourself into a "religious experience" when in a highly emotional state.

Thanks, intellectually I know you are probably right. I'll be happy when I can think freely without my religious filter.

[rach]

Well I used to think I was experiencing the holy spirit when I got "convicted of sin".  I felt what the minister said we'd feel, a prick to the heart, he called it.  But what I found out is I have the same thing after leaving Christianity, and in fact I always had it.  It is your conscious.  So it turns out I never had the holy spirit. 

 

Another experience is when we were singing a hymn, this is when I went to church, and they had a cross on display.  And I felt the deepest emotion, and I didn't want to feel anything at all.  But I felt pain and longing like I needed to be part of this (I was not converted yet).  And once when I said something to my friend against Jesus Christ (I said why I thought it was stupid to believe in him) I felt a pain like a zap in my heart.  Those things seemed to be very clear evidence that Christianity was the one true path.  But when I converted I started to see and experience the dark side of Christianity.  So what I have ended up with is a belief that Christianity might be the "truth" but that doesn't mean it is good. 

[Neverlandrut]

It was an altered state of consciousness, no more. It was real to you because your brain chemistry made it seem real. The important thing to know is that it came from *within* you, not from God, not from the outside. That's my perspective on it. People are highly suggestible and you can talk yourself into a "religious experience" when in a highly emotional state.

This realization has really helped me. I realized that all sense of peace, love, and security that I got from prayer really came from me. Therefore, I can still have all those things without belief in god.

[directionless]

Well I used to think I was experiencing the holy spirit when I got "convicted of sin".  I felt what the minister said we'd feel, a prick to the heart, he called it.  But what I found out is I have the same thing after leaving Christianity, and in fact I always had it.  It is your conscious.  So it turns out I never had the holy spirit. 

 

Another experience is when we were singing a hymn, this is when I went to church, and they had a cross on display.  And I felt the deepest emotion, and I didn't want to feel anything at all.  But I felt pain and longing like I needed to be part of this (I was not converted yet).  And once when I said something to my friend against Jesus Christ (I said why I thought it was stupid to believe in him) I felt a pain like a zap in my heart.  Those things seemed to be very clear evidence that Christianity was the one true path.  But when I converted I started to see and experience the dark side of Christianity.  So what I have ended up with is a belief that Christianity might be the "truth" but that doesn't mean it is good.

Thanks, I almost forgot about that zap feeling in the heart. That used to be my "guidance" from the Holy Spirit. It must be related to feelings of guilt, but there are so many reasons for a Christian to feel guilty that it happens more often than for a non-Christian. Constantly looking for guidance from God about even the most trivial decisions was one of the worst things for me. I did a lot of dumb things.

[FreeThinkerNZ]

 

Psychosis was an unfortunate choice of word for the therapist.  True psychosis is the kind of mental state that will get a person medicated, sometimes forcibly, and if so, locked up for a time.  Unfortunately the word also has a vague meaning: any psychological state that is not "normal" in the strictest sense of the word.  I think the vague meaning was what the therapist had in mind.

 

I prefer to call xianity a delusion.  I am now ok with the fact that for most of my life I lived under the delusion that a god exists and is interested in my life and listens to my thoughts.  It took time for me to become ok with that and to forgive myself for falling for it.  It helps that I realise I contracted a virus from my parents.  The biology of the developing brain ensures that children trust their caregiving adults, they need to do it for survival.

 

Keep reading and researching like you are doing, eventually you will learn enough to satisfy yourself that the probability that god exists is very, very, very small.

What I experienced was very scary at first, but it only lasted a couple of weeks and then gradually tailed off. For the next couple of years I experienced isolated brief hallucinations every month or so and then even that tailed off. The closest match I could find was brief reactive psychosis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brief_reactive_psychosis), but that's not a perfect match either.

 

When I described it to a therapist a couple years later, she thought it was a mild type of persecutory delusional disorder (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delusional_disorder), and she suggested I have medication in case it happens again. I think that was an overreaction.

 

At the time it happened, I thought it was spiritual so I became very religious. Sometimes I wonder if it was partly psychosis and partly spiritual. There is a book I've been thinking of buying called "The Irreducible Mind: Toward a Psychology for the 21st Century" by Kelly.

 

Probably I need to stop trying to figure it out and move on.

 

Often therapists are in a rush to diagnose and medicate where it's not warranted.  It sort of proves to them that they are good at their job.  They would do better to think of what is really best for the patient.  Trust your instincts.  You're not likely to lose your mind again, especially now that you are getting free of the cult.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

 

 

 

I recommend getting a psychology textbook.  Every spiritual experience I ever had was purely psychological.  Studying it helped me realize how powerful the human mind is when compared to the spirit of god.

 

I described my experiences to a therapist, and she told me it was psychosis.  I also read "Hallucinations" by Oliver Sacks.

 

One difficulty I have fully accepting this explanation is that when I discuss my experiences on psychological forums with genuine mentally ill people there are differences.  Most of those people need medication and most of them know they have a mental illness.  Also most of them experience psychosis more continuously and over a longer duration.  In my case usually I'm feeling perfectly normal and then something weird happens and then it's over.  Usually it lasts only a few seconds but sometimes it might last longer.  It is hard to know when I'm hallucinating and when I'm not hallucinating, because hallucinations can be very realistic apparently.

 

It's not a problem for me much anymore though.  If I start remembering I get shaky and depressed that I don't know what was real and what wasn't real.

 

Some of these experiences were religious things like seeing Jesus and some were just bizarre.  It should be obvious they were all psychological, but it's a struggle for me to accept that.

 

This was one of the things which kept me holding on to my faith long after it was evident that my faith had been shattered to pieces.  I didn't want to accept that all I had experienced for my entire life was simply a psychological phenomenon.  In the end, though, the only way I could hold on to what sanity I have was to embrace the fact. 

 

Have you considered the possibility that something is behind these phenomena other than psychology?  Like maybe the Force or the Great Spirit causes people to have spiritual experiences in their native culture whether it is Christian, Hindu, Muslim, ...?

 

This idea bothers me to be honest, but sometimes I think about it anyway.   I much prefer atheism.

 

I've never thought about something else causing it.  I have no more evidence for the Force or the Great Spirit than I have for god.  I do, however, have evidence to support psychology.  Occam's Razor compels me to favor that for which there is evidence over that for which there is mere conjecture.