Top 10 Tips For Reaching Out To Religious Believers

[FreeThinkerNZ]

We're already doing many of these, like #2, requiring them to stay on topic (not that they listen)

 

 

1. Don’t call religious believers stupid.

2. Make believers stay on topic during debates.

3. Don’t tell religious believers “what they really believe.”

4. Clarify what kinds of evidence warrant what kinds of belief.

5. Help break the spell of religious reverence.

6. Don’t demonize religious peoples’ motives, focus on their objective harms.

7. Take philosophy seriously.

8. Both refute the best counter-arguments you can think of and create Gestalt shifts.

9. Be unapologetic, rigorous, patient, and gracious with religious believers.

10. Love religious people.

 

 

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/camelswithhammers/2012/12/top-ten-tips-for-reaching-out-to-religious-believers/

[Roz]

WIth respect to Camels with Hammers, how do you practice all 10 with christianity?

 

When the christian says "this book is god's word, you know that"

My mind goes back to the sanctioned mass rape, brutal murders, and the institutionalized practice of owning other people for life.

 

No doubt the christian will deflect or whine that I took things out of context.

When I ask "what was the context of those passages" the christian will say or post (Ironhorse) something that directly contradicts what another christian said about those exact same passages about the exact same god.

 

Really, the christians we have now, End3, IH, and Clay, all come up with different interpretations of those sadistic passages.

 

It's 1 book, 1 3in1 god, and lots and lots of interpretations.  But they all say their particular product is the truth. 

 

It's very fascinating, I don't know of any other instance where the salesman has such free reign to make things up and then ask you to buy their product.  No, not even used car salesmen or door-to-door salesmen are so brazen.

 

There's a reason why neo-nazism openly mocked.  That person can be the kindest, sweetest person out there, but if he comes out and says "I believe in Hitler and his book Mein Kampf" I will never ever look at the person the same way again.

 

Yeah, Nazism again.  I use it because honestly what's the difference between them (the christian god's style of rule and Hitler's), aside from a technological gap?  Both governments were authoritarian fascist by nature. 

 

Yeah, I'm sure many who wore the wehrmacht uniform were loving husbands and fathers, gave freely to their neighbors, and were happy citizens.  But if they came out as believers in the ideals of Hitler, I really would view them the same as I do christians now.

[FreeThinkerNZ]

I totally agree, it's a big ask and I don't think I could practice all 10 with xianity.  I am surrounded by xian family and I have to constantly repeat the mantra to myself "you can't change their minds" or I'd go insane.  But I believe in the potential for every xian to change their mind, after all, I did.  If I was still a xian, there's no way I'd attempt a discussion in the Lion's Den; I'd certainly avoid websites like Ex-C altogether.  

 

Here's the earlier article Fincke wrote, which is probably more relevant:

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/camelswithhammers/2011/02/top-10-tips-for-reaching-out-to-atheists/

 

 

Last week I lambasted Rabbi Adam Jacobs who wrote an “open letter to the atheist community”.  As someone else has astutely observed, the rabbi’s letter was practically a model for how not to address serious atheists.  In hopes for better future discussions between believers and non-believers, I decided to give some advice to believers who would like to reach out to us in the future, whether publicly or personally.  In some cases I will use examples that assume the reader is a Christian since I live in America and in America seemingly 99.99% of would-be proselytizers are Christians of some sort.  But most of the principles will be valuable to Muslims and those rare proselytizing Jews too.

I completely understand if you do not want this advice or refuse to abide by it.  I am fine with you not even trying to reach out to me.  But if you would really like to try to reach out to atheists for some reason, I think I can speak for a lot of atheists when I offer these tips for how to make us like you and not be as insulted and unimpressed asmany of us were by the Rabbi Jacobs’s letter.

[Wololo]

Careful, you sound like a closet Christian with that post. It brings a smile to my face.

 

I'm not sure you can go after the fundamentalists. Those of us that are more moderate are certainly open to discussion, and are comfortable with aggressive, and reasonable debates (and some of us will return the favour). I think that we should be more open about the flaws of the Church (which is much more of an issue than God.)

 

The fundies are a lost cause. Don't waste your breath on them. Leave those people to those of us that are still Christians and can (to some extent) tolerate and deal with their unreasonable perspectives. It takes a special kind of patience to talk to them. If you want to dialogue with people that are still Christians, meet them on equal ground and agree to the terms of your debate as early as possible.

[FreeThinkerNZ]

Careful, you sound like a closet Christian with that post. It brings a smile to my face.

 

If you want to dialogue with people that are still Christians, meet them on equal ground and agree to the terms of your debate as early as possible.

 

If you want to dialogue with the ex-xians here, read this first:

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/camelswithhammers/2011/02/top-10-tips-for-reaching-out-to-atheists/

 

I am not a closet xian.  I was a xian for 35 years.  There is nothing you can say to me about xianity that I haven't already heard.  Does that bring a smile to your face?

[Wololo]

I wasn't being serious. Mmm...the problems with talking online with people. Hard to make a joke. >.<

[FreeThinkerNZ]

I wasn't being serious. Mmm...the problems with talking online with people. Hard to make a joke. >.<

I take these matters very seriously.

[mymistake]

I wasn't being serious. Mmm...the problems with talking online with people. Hard to make a joke. >.<

 

 

Welcome to the forum.

[Wololo]

No really though, for obvious reasons I wouldn't advise you on the best ways to attack weaker Christians, but I certainly think we should have a constant dialogue, and these sorts of guidelines are a great place to start.

[FreeThinkerNZ]

No really though, for obvious reasons I wouldn't advise you on the best ways to attack weaker Christians, but I certainly think we should have a constant dialogue, and these sorts of guidelines are a great place to start.

What makes you think I want to attack any xians?  I want to support people who are leaving xianity behind, and promote positive atheism and the separation of state and church.  I'm not into attacking anyone.  I simply want to ask you questions about your faith, to understand why you believe.  I find it interesting, that's all.

[Wololo]

Here's some context. I find myself in an interesting position. I'm essentially outside the Church, and I don't really care if you're not attending either. There's enough crap and hypocrisy there, and I just don't have the time or will to get involved in it or try to get rid of it. Spiritually, I don't find myself interested in the things that are discussed there. On the other hand, I'm still a strong Christian, and care about the people who are attending. Perhaps you and I are similar in that regard. I care about people regardless of who they are and where they are (or what they believe.) What I won't do, is help you get people out of the Church. That's what I'm getting at. I'm not going to make it easier for you to make them into atheists, and for those that are not as strong, leaving the Church could cause that.

 

What I do support is if you're supporting them. If people leave the church, and you take care of them, I'm quite content with that. When I joked that you're being like a closet Christian, it was because what you're saying is essentially what Christian behaviour is (aside from maybe point number 5). My concern is for those who are not as strong. I know how to get people to leave Church. I've essentially done it myself...but I won't help if someone is trying to convert them and get them out (which I'm not saying you are.)

[FreeThinkerNZ]

Here's some context. I find myself in an interesting position. I'm essentially outside the Church, and I don't really care if you're not attending either. There's enough crap and hypocrisy there, and I just don't have the time or will to get involved in it or try to get rid of it. Spiritually, I don't find myself interested in the things that are discussed there. On the other hand, I'm still a strong Christian, and care about the people who are attending. Perhaps you and I are similar in that regard. I care about people regardless of who they are and where they are (or what they believe.) What I won't do, is help you get people out of the Church. That's what I'm getting at. I'm not going to make it easier for you to make them into atheists, and for those that are not as strong, leaving the Church could cause that.

 

What I do support is if you're supporting them. If people leave the church, and you take care of them, I'm quite content with that. When I joked that you're being like a closet Christian, it was because what you're saying is essentially what Christian behaviour is (aside from maybe point number 5). My concern is for those who are not as strong. I know how to get people to leave Church. I've essentially done it myself...but I won't help if someone is trying to convert them and get them out (which I'm not saying you are.)

I don't attend church.  I'm an atheist.  I'm  not trying to "get people out of the church".  New atheists emerge every day without me doing a thing.  When I say one of my goals is to promote positive atheism, what I mean is promoting to everyone that atheists can be positive people.  This is with the goal of improving life for atheists, so that we will be discriminated against less than we are now.  I'm not promoting atheism to xians that don't want to hear about it.  I don't need to.

 

You seem to have made a lot - a lot - of assumptions about the motives and lives of atheists.  It would be a good idea to try and knock that on the head.

[Roz]

One question for the christian and I'll leave it at that.  Do you believe that your jesus christ is the same god in both the old and new testaments?

[Wololo]

I don't think we should be discriminating against anyone, whether that's Muslims, Buddhists, or Atheists. The faith of some people needs to be shaken though. I think that the militant atheists have a place in that they keep the fundies from being comfortable. Faith exists for everyone, but it should not be stupid faith.

 

There are plenty of nice, decent atheist people out there, so I support your cause in that sense.

 

Hm...perhaps I do make assumptions, but I could toss that same thing back on most of you.

 

 

One question for the christian and I'll leave it at that.  Do you believe that your jesus christ is the same god in both the old and new testaments?

 

Jesus is a physical manifestation of God. It's the same God, but Jesus did not exist in our universe before he was born on Earth. Things get weird when you consider that God exists outside of time.

[Ousian]

One question for the christian and I'll leave it at that.  Do you believe that your jesus christ is the same god in both the old and new testaments?

 

Jesus is a physical manifestation of God. It's the same God, but Jesus did not exist in our universe before he was born on Earth. Things get weird when you consider that God exists outside of time.

Why do you believe that?  That seems to be a very unpopular opinion among Christians.  

[par4dcourse]

Welcome Wololo. We're used to the rubber stamp xians around here so I certainly hope you are up for some honest discussion. So far so good!

[francesco]

We're already doing many of these, like #2, requiring them to stay on topic (not that they listen)

 

 

 

1. Don’t call religious believers stupid.

2. Make believers stay on topic during debates.

3. Don’t tell religious believers “what they really believe.”

4. Clarify what kinds of evidence warrant what kinds of belief.

5. Help break the spell of religious reverence.

6. Don’t demonize religious peoples’ motives, focus on their objective harms.

7. Take philosophy seriously.

8. Both refute the best counter-arguments you can think of and create Gestalt shifts.

9. Be unapologetic, rigorous, patient, and gracious with religious believers.

10. Love religious people.

 

 

 

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/camelswithhammers/2012/12/top-ten-tips-for-reaching-out-to-religious-believers/

11. Don't!! They are unreachable :troll:

[TheRedneckProfessor]

No really though, for obvious reasons I wouldn't advise you on the best ways to attack weaker Christians, but I certainly think we should have a constant dialogue, and these sorts of guidelines are a great place to start.

Seriously?  You wouldn't advise us on the best ways to attack weaker christians?  Do you not understand what's happening here?  We're just hanging out on our own website, which was designed to support and encourage those who are going through the disillusionment and frustration of deconverting from christianity.  That, and that alone, is our primary purpose.  Why would you assume any of us would want to attack weaker christians?  Beyond that, this is a website for ex-christians, meaning that we've already been down the christian path and we turned from it; what makes you think any of us would need your advice on attacking weaker christians?  It's the extreme arrogance of christians which sets them apart; arrogance which you, Wololo, have clearly demonstrated with this post.  

[sdelsolray]

…

One question for the christian and I'll leave it at that.  Do you believe that your jesus christ is the same god in both the old and new testaments?

 

Jesus is a physical manifestation of God. It's the same God, but Jesus did not exist in our universe before he was born on Earth. Things get weird when you consider that God exists outside of time.

Please repeat this in front of a mirror.  Note the edits in bold.

 

"I believe that Jesus is a physical manifestation of God. I believe t's the same God, but believe Jesus did not exist in our universe before he was born on Earth. Things get weird when I consider my belief that my God exists outside of time."

A bit more accurate, wouldn't you say?

[Wololo]

 

One question for the christian and I'll leave it at that.  Do you believe that your jesus christ is the same god in both the old and new testaments?

 

Jesus is a physical manifestation of God. It's the same God, but Jesus did not exist in our universe before he was born on Earth. Things get weird when you consider that God exists outside of time.

Why do you believe that?  That seems to be a very unpopular opinion among Christians.  

 

 

I have mentioned before that conservatives don't take kindly to progressive views. There are a multitude of progressive Christians and it's sad that the fundies have such a firm hold on the public opinion. If you had come across more liberal Christians you would have found that there are others like me out there.

 

 

 

…

One question for the christian and I'll leave it at that.  Do you believe that your jesus christ is the same god in both the old and new testaments?

 

Jesus is a physical manifestation of God. It's the same God, but Jesus did not exist in our universe before he was born on Earth. Things get weird when you consider that God exists outside of time.

Please repeat this in front of a mirror.  Note the edits in bold.

 

"I believe that Jesus is a physical manifestation of God. I believe t's the same God, but believe Jesus did not exist in our universe before he was born on Earth. Things get weird when I consider my belief that my God exists outside of time."

A bit more accurate, wouldn't you say?

 

 

It's just a polite way of asserting myself. You believe things too. We all do. Rather than coming across as super arrogant by assuming I'm right, I'm just noting that this is what I believe. You guys have different beliefs.

 

 

 

No really though, for obvious reasons I wouldn't advise you on the best ways to attack weaker Christians, but I certainly think we should have a constant dialogue, and these sorts of guidelines are a great place to start.

Seriously?  You wouldn't advise us on the best ways to attack weaker christians?  Do you not understand what's happening here?  We're just hanging out on our own website, which was designed to support and encourage those who are going through the disillusionment and frustration of deconverting from christianity.  That, and that alone, is our primary purpose.  Why would you assume any of us would want to attack weaker christians?  Beyond that, this is a website for ex-christians, meaning that we've already been down the christian path and we turned from it; what makes you think any of us would need your advice on attacking weaker christians?  It's the extreme arrogance of christians which sets them apart; arrogance which you, Wololo, have clearly demonstrated with this post.  

 

 

No, actually I don't. A lot of it is that I don't know you. If you're wanting to help people that have left the Church, I would join you in that. If people want to leave the Church, it doesn't bother me, and that's because I am disillusioned with it as well. My concern is a bit of an overreaction, yes, and I apologize. I'm accustomed to militant atheists and I can be a bit sharp at times. I'm not here to pass judgment on people who have left the religion and the body of believers.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

Wololo, I have one piece of advice for you.  You claim to be disillusioned with church.  You claim that you would encourage people who have left the faith, or rather that you would join in helping people who have left the church.  If any of these statements are genuinely true, then it's time for you to stop talking and start listening.  My advice is that you genuinely hear what we have to say.  Nothing you have to say will appeal to us, because we've heard it before.  I challenge you to demonstrate your willingness to assist in the primary purpose of this website; assuming, of course, the statements you have made are true.  Trust me when I say, I'll be on the eye for posts that demonstrate the cross purposes that you have already revealed.

[Wololo]

The difference between you and me is that our beliefs differ. I may not be particularly active (I do still attend regularly), and I don't really consider myself a part of it, but I am still a Christian. I don't care what you believe, or whether you're coming or going from among us. I'm going to treat you equally. If you're here to encourage people who have left, that's totally fine, and I support that. I'm not here to run these forums down. The difficulty is that it seems many of you have baggage from your times as Christians. This is already causing problems. I'm not going to mince words. I didn't exactly expect a warm welcome from all of you, but I've seen more straw men than anywhere else. I am not one of the so-called Christians you have dealt with before. I will share similarities with them, to be sure, but I am not the same

 

I know the problems. I do. I am not blind. There have been heated discussions about what's wrong with the Church and why people are being driven away. I have experienced such things firsthand. Whether it seems that way or not, I am listening, and many of your concerns are not new to me. I haven't once condemned or judged any of you for your choices. I haven't once told you about being wrong. Nothing of the sort. That is not why I came here.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

Wololo, I have one piece of advice for you.  You claim to be disillusioned with church.  You claim that you would encourage people who have left the faith, or rather that you would join in helping people who have left the church.  If any of these statements are genuinely true, then it's time for you to stop talking and start listening.  My advice is that you genuinely hear what we have to say.  Nothing you have to say will appeal to us, because we've heard it before.  I challenge you to demonstrate your willingness to assist in the primary purpose of this website; assuming, of course, the statements you have made are true.  Trust me when I say, I'll be on the eye for posts that demonstrate the cross purposes that you have already revealed.

 

 

The difference between you and me is that our beliefs differ. I may not be particularly active (I do still attend regularly), and I don't really consider myself a part of it, but I am still a Christian. I don't care what you believe, or whether you're coming or going from among us. I'm going to treat you equally. If you're here to encourage people who have left, that's totally fine, and I support that. I'm not here to run these forums down. The difficulty is that it seems many of you have baggage from your times as Christians. This is already causing problems. I'm not going to mince words. I didn't exactly expect a warm welcome from all of you, but I've seen more straw men than anywhere else. I am not one of the so-called Christians you have dealt with before. I will share similarities with them, to be sure, but I am not the same

 

I know the problems. I do. I am not blind. There have been heated discussions about what's wrong with the Church and why people are being driven away. I have experienced such things firsthand. Whether it seems that way or not, I am listening, and many of your concerns are not new to me. I haven't once condemned or judged any of you for your choices. I haven't once told you about being wrong. Nothing of the sort. That is not why I came here.

So, you're still running your mouth and not listening.  Duly noted.

[FreeThinkerNZ]

 

 

One question for the christian and I'll leave it at that.  Do you believe that your jesus christ is the same god in both the old and new testaments?

 

Jesus is a physical manifestation of God. It's the same God, but Jesus did not exist in our universe before he was born on Earth. Things get weird when you consider that God exists outside of time.

Why do you believe that?  That seems to be a very unpopular opinion among Christians.  

 

 

I have mentioned before that conservatives don't take kindly to progressive views. There are a multitude of progressive Christians and it's sad that the fundies have such a firm hold on the public opinion. If you had come across more liberal Christians you would have found that there are others like me out there.

 

If you had been listening instead of arrogantly assuming, you would have heard the numerous times I and others have told you that there's nothing magical about liberal xianity.  I say yet again, I was a liberal.  Being a liberal does not make you into a different, superior type of xian. You still believe in a god, and you think those who don't are mistaken and have no experience of xianity.  So arrogant.

 

 

 

No really though, for obvious reasons I wouldn't advise you on the best ways to attack weaker Christians, but I certainly think we should have a constant dialogue, and these sorts of guidelines are a great place to start.

Seriously?  You wouldn't advise us on the best ways to attack weaker christians?  Do you not understand what's happening here?  We're just hanging out on our own website, which was designed to support and encourage those who are going through the disillusionment and frustration of deconverting from christianity.  That, and that alone, is our primary purpose.  Why would you assume any of us would want to attack weaker christians?  Beyond that, this is a website for ex-christians, meaning that we've already been down the christian path and we turned from it; what makes you think any of us would need your advice on attacking weaker christians?  It's the extreme arrogance of christians which sets them apart; arrogance which you, Wololo, have clearly demonstrated with this post.  

 

 

No, actually I don't. A lot of it is that I don't know you. If you're wanting to help people that have left the Church, I would join you in that. If people want to leave the Church, it doesn't bother me, and that's because I am disillusioned with it as well. My concern is a bit of an overreaction, yes, and I apologize. I'm accustomed to militant atheists and I can be a bit sharp at times. I'm not here to pass judgment on people who have left the religion and the body of believers.

 

You misread "leaving xianity" as "leaving the church/religion/body of believers".  Drop the references to the church, we are talking about xianity/belief in a god.  

 

When I left the church, I remained a liberal xian for many years without any attachment to the church/body of believers.  I still believed in a god.  So, know you "know me" at least well enough to have no excuse for continuing to assert that I somehow can't fathom your liberal/non church approach to xianity.

[Wololo]

Ah yes, you're bundles of fun.

 

I'm here to talk. I'm going to talk. No, I don't expect things to be particularly friendly, but it seems both sides of the discussion here are making assumptions about the other based on prior experience. Perhaps we need to reevaluate.