Asimov Posted January 9, 2006 Share Posted January 9, 2006 While there is no one things about Christianity that turns me off of it...pretty much the whole thing does, I find that the concept of Sin to be so amazingly illogical that it is impossible for me to accept. First....we are born into it. We inherit this genetic flaw. So, not only are we not given a fresh start, but we're fucked right away. Second....Even if we're not born into it, if we fuck up just once, we're screwed. It doesn't matter how many good things you do, that one faux pas is somehow bad enough to illicit eternal torment. Third....It seems like God actually puts more value on doing Evil things than doing Good things. Since doing One evil thing is enough to outweigh any good thing you'll do. Coupled with inhereting it, and the fact that one bad thing will illicit hell, while one good thing will definitely not illicit heaven. It lacks any balance whatsoever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taphophilia Posted January 9, 2006 Share Posted January 9, 2006 The concept of what constitutes a sin has change over time. It's widely know that it used to be sin for married couples to have sex except for the purpose of baby making. Now, mostly it's okay to have sex and enjoy it as long as you are a married male/female couple even if baby making is not the reason for sex. A little know fact is that it also used to be considered a sin to eat with a fork. The logic went that your fingers and hands are what God made, you should eat with them and not with any man made utensil. Is this still actually a sin in God's eyes and we don't know about it anymore? Is this the secret sin I worried that I had committed when I was a Chrstian, except for the occasional chicken, ribs, and sweet corn? It's not exactly in our nature to eat with utensils. It is an aquired skill taught to babies by sinful utensil using parents. Are their people in hell whose sin was to eat with a fork? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
txviper Posted January 9, 2006 Share Posted January 9, 2006 Asimov, General condemnation is what allows for general atonement. I already told you that humans are not judged on the basis of their sins, so nobody needs to be particularly impressed by their own. Think "incompleteness and incompatibility". If you want to read about this, Christ explained the exclusionary rule in John 3:3-7. If you want to read about the judgment of believers, it is in 1 Corinthians 3:10-15. Our evaluation will be based on our works. If you want to read about the judgment of unbelievers (a thousand years later), it is in Revelation 20:11-15. They will be judged on the basis of their works, but not being on the roster will be the bottom line. Sins will not be the issue, though I'm sure mine are better than yours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asimov Posted January 9, 2006 Author Share Posted January 9, 2006 Asimov, General condemnation is what allows for general atonement. I already told you that humans are not judged on the basis of their sins, so nobody needs to be particularly impressed by their own. Think "incompleteness and incompatibility". If you want to read about this, Christ explained the exclusionary rule in John 3:3-7. If you want to read about the judgment of believers, it is in 1 Corinthians 3:10-15. Our evaluation will be based on our works. If you want to read about the judgment of unbelievers (a thousand years later), it is in Revelation 20:11-15. They will be judged on the basis of their works, but not being on the roster will be the bottom line. Sins will not be the issue, though I'm sure mine are better than yours. ...um...dude, the only time we've ever had a discussion was about Evolution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Guest Posted January 9, 2006 Share Posted January 9, 2006 Oops! That was Lloyd. I stand scolded and corrected. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lycorth Posted January 9, 2006 Share Posted January 9, 2006 Yes, it's one of Xianity's big flaws, and ties in with what I consider to be the Big Flaw with that cult; the notion that all the religion is about is burning eternally if you don't sell your soul to Jesus. Xianity places way too much emphasis on bad things and not nearly enough on doing good. People aren't made to feel better for doing good or trying to, they are told that all their good works won't justify them before Jehoover and they are like "filthy rags" before him. Yet, one bad deed is enough to cut you off from the Almightah and send you to neverending roasting agony. Trying to convince me that my loved ones, good and decent folks all, are going to burn without end or rest just because they didn't sell their souls to Jesus is what makes me so angry with Xians and that worthless deathcult to begin with. It's the big reason I choose not to waste my time falling for it anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkepticOfBible Posted January 9, 2006 Share Posted January 9, 2006 If you want to read about the judgment of believers, it is in 1 Corinthians 3:10-15. Our evaluation will be based on our works. If you want to read about the judgment of unbelievers (a thousand years later), it is in Revelation 20:11-15. They will be judged on the basis of their works, but not being on the roster will be the bottom line. Whatever happened to faith alone can save you?Many christians claim that Good works would not do jack for you? And as far as judgement of believers goes, will they be tormented forever? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EdwardAbbey Posted January 9, 2006 Share Posted January 9, 2006 While there is no one things about Christianity that turns me off of it...pretty much the whole thing does, I find that the concept of Sin to be so amazingly illogical that it is impossible for me to accept. First....we are born into it. We inherit this genetic flaw. So, not only are we not given a fresh start, but we're fucked right away. Second....Even if we're not born into it, if we fuck up just once, we're screwed. It doesn't matter how many good things you do, that one faux pas is somehow bad enough to illicit eternal torment. Third....It seems like God actually puts more value on doing Evil things than doing Good things. Since doing One evil thing is enough to outweigh any good thing you'll do. Coupled with inhereting it, and the fact that one bad thing will illicit hell, while one good thing will definitely not illicit heaven. It lacks any balance whatsoever. I like the title of your thread. That is exactly what the concept of sin and hell promotes. Christian madness and craziness. Both are nothing more than primitive myths for the purpose of mind control of the masses of those who are to ignorant to see it for what it really is - pure bullshit ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkepticOfBible Posted January 9, 2006 Share Posted January 9, 2006 Trying to convince me that my loved ones, good and decent folks all, are going to burn without end or rest just because they didn't sell their souls to Jesus is what makes me so angry with Xians and that worthless deathcult to begin with. It's the big reason I choose not to waste my time falling for it anymore. That certainly also majors up for my disbelief. face it, my current and past loved ones never accpeted Jesus, cause most of them are Hindus. So right now a rightoeous god is burning them in hell?I could never be happy in heaven, if my loved ones are suffering in hell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dibby Posted February 11, 2006 Share Posted February 11, 2006 Hear hear guys! Heaven is NOT heaven without the ones you love...and since God is love then it won,t be heaven for him either. It would appear that some of us who have left the "fold" have more of a sense of compassion, than vindictive old Jehovah. Is this really the infinite power that created this absolutely, magical, breathtaking universe with its millions of galaxies, each with millions of stars? The whole of life is such an awesome mystery. .....but wait ....here comes Jehovah .....selecting a tiny, infinitesimal speck called earth.....selecting an infinitesimally even smaller speck of "the saved" and consigning the rest to the dustbin of eternity. PLEASE....its not only offensive, its down right bonkers! (Of course on another planet, somewhere in the universe the aliens know thats not true.....it says so in their holy book ! ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JPD Posted February 11, 2006 Share Posted February 11, 2006 My Dad and I have gone back and forth about this for awhile and he usually just refuses to examine the issue, all the while hiding behind "God's sovereignty". Things got particularly tense between us for awhile, mostly because of the insensitive and presumptuous christian propaganda emails my stepmother refused to quit sending me, citing her general disrespect for me as her reason for not stopping. My Dad, being the closer to reality of the two decided to do a little damage control and actually answer my questions for once. He's always saying that he wants to hear and respects my honest questions, but usually gets offended and quibbles with my wording when I ask them, and the question goes unanswered. So, he had noticed that I was mentioning hell everytime my beef with christianity came up. Frankly, its christianity's most glaringly obvious mistake, and the thing that I think christians will be able to grasp at first as maybe the tip of their iceberg of apostasy. So, he admits to me that he never really thinks about it. Convenient not to think of your children burning in hell. But then he hauls out the old tired line "hell is seperation from god", as if the NT isn't crystal clear about hell. The bible doesn't equivocate. He responded that I need to look at it like C.S. Lewis did in his book The Great Divorce, a book that he knew I loved when I was a kid. I tell him that Lewis isn't god and point him back to the bible. I ask him why he never gives any thought to the fact that his holy book says that his children will burn in hell for no good reason. I know the answer. Of course he doesn't really believe it. Who could love their children and believe that? So he says something about how the bible says that in heaven we won't be given in marriage or some such meaningless shit, and tries to say how that shows that we won't be male or female so we probably won't still have our personalities so we probably won't remember anything, soooooo........ TADA! He ain't gonna care! Glory! My Dad has so much faith in the great benevolent lord of heavenly hosts that he's just sure that, in the event my sis and I end up burning eternally and somehow our tortured screams manage to reverberate all the way back to our father's blessed soul plucking his harp in heaven, god's holy morphine will allow him to hear only rapturous singing, and a stupid beatific grin will split his face as a rivulet of drool winds it's way through his beard to drip twixt his harp strings... Dad - "Jeremy and Rebekah who?". Angel - "Durham, your children were named Jeremy and Rebekah Durham. You thought they were beautiful. You loved them. Not as much as God, though. He put them in a very special place." Dad - "Oh....." *grin**pluck**pling**twang**drool* Hell is ridiculous. Hell negates anything good that might be in the bible and simply must be addressed before I want to hear anything you have to say about how the bible teaches love or helping the poor. If Mein Kampf had had several exhortations to give to charity throughout it's pages in addition to everything else, who would be arguing that giving to the poor is a good thing because Hitler said so? How can you extract the good from something so evil and why should you try? It's not like good ideas can't be found in myriad other places such as one's own goddamned melon. My own brain tells me that giving to the poor is a good thing while torturing someone eternally is an evil thing. If a single tome espouses both ideas then it is, how you say? Totally Fucked Up? Excuse my french. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asimov Posted February 11, 2006 Author Share Posted February 11, 2006 I started that topic awhile ago, you can do whatever you want with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eponymic Posted February 11, 2006 Share Posted February 11, 2006 General condemnation is what allows for general atonement. I already told you that humans are not judged on the basis of their sins, so nobody needs to be particularly impressed by their own. Think "incompleteness and incompatibility". Exactly, general. It's imbalanced because nothing has any weight. Kill a guy, repent & you're done. Steal a paper clip, don't repent, you're screwed. No balance. And if it's not based on sins, what's it based on, beef jerky consumption? I mean, if it's based solely on repenting, then we're back to imbalance. No matter how you look at it, there an imbalance here you're covering up for, or not accounting for. If you want to read about this, Christ explained the exclusionary rule in John 3:3-7. If you want to read about the judgment of believers, it is in 1 Corinthians 3:10-15. Our evaluation will be based on our works. If you want to read about the judgment of unbelievers (a thousand years later), it is in Revelation 20:11-15. They will be judged on the basis of their works, but not being on the roster will be the bottom line. That's very conceited & condescending to assume that he, or any of us (who've already been through the rigamarole) haven't read these. Writing it like this, you're doing just that. And there's nothing nice about it. Sins will not be the issue, though I'm sure mine are better than yours. Well, you're one closer to him at any rate. I think a hubris display such as this qualifies as a sin. It certainly is in most Christian circles (unless you're interpretation conveniently absolves you from that.) If not, it's certainly a very negative attitude that you wonder why a God would sanction. And if you want a couple of verses thrown at you for verification, here ya go: Proverbs 16:18 (Whole Chapter) Pride goes before destruction, a haughty spirit before a fall. Proverbs 17:6 (Whole Chapter) Children's children are a crown to the aged, and parents are the pride of their children. Proverbs 21:24 (Whole Chapter) The proud and arrogant man-"Mocker" is his name; he behaves with overweening pride. Proverbs 29:23 (Whole Chapter) Gettin' the picture? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted February 11, 2006 Share Posted February 11, 2006 Asimov, your OP was head on. It doesn't make sense, and what's amazing that as a Christian, I didn't see how irrational and unbalanced it was. Belief can't throw a mountain in the sea, but it sure overcomes the mountain of reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asimov Posted February 11, 2006 Author Share Posted February 11, 2006 Belief can't throw a mountain in the sea, but it sure overcomes the mountain of reason. That's probably what Jesus meant. "If you have faith the size of a mustard seed, you can overcome the mountain of reason and throw it into the sea of stupidity" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts