You Were Never A Real Christian!

[TimWolf]

I'm sure most of you have heard this, probably many times. I'm never quite sure the best way to answer this. The short answer is back in the day I was considered to be a model Christian. I was very active in the church for decades. I taught Sunday school. I ran a youth for Christ group at a large high school for several years. I studied the Bible deeply and seriously. When a pastor needed something to get done, I was the guy he called on. 

 

Yet if I try to point any of this out to a Christian, they will always just respond something like "Yeah, but you never REALLY believed. You were just looking for a way out."

 

So I started this topic to see what others say about addressing this question. I certainly don't have to recite my "Christian resume" to believers who question my former faith. But on the other hand, I want them to know that so many ex-Christians were absolutely as committed to their faith as the questioner. And yes, you can be a "real" Christian and later become an atheist. For me the process took close to 15 years. 

 

What say you all, fellow apostates!

[♦ Fuego ♦]

It is a double-minded reaction. On the one hand, they say that god is "just waiting for you to reach out to him. He'll be there 1000% for you the moment your heart surrenders to him" blah blah blah. In other words, believing is EASY. No hoops to jump through, no tests to pass. But when we deconvert, suddenly belief becomes some contorted thing that you have to do just right. This is a defense mechanism to help protect them from the idea that what they believe in could possibly be phony.

 

Here's a blurb from my book that talks about this:

 

 

“You were never a Christian to begin with” (or “never a real Christian”)

The primary scriptural reason they say this is a couple of verses from 1 John 2:18-19:

“Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.”

 

The Apostle John wrote this about ex-Christians from congregations of that time, and sees them as “antichrists”. True, there have always been those who were loosely associated with church, never really believing and being more of a problem than a genuine part of the congregation.

 

But then there are the rest of us who did belong, as much as it is possible to belong. We loved and served and followed Jesus. We devoured the word of God, we were baptized, believed that we were filled with the Spirit, and spoke in tongues, we sang and worshiped, we fasted and prayed for days, we led others to Jesus, many of us were pastors or missionaries, we memorized and practiced large parts of the Bible. We partook of the wine and the bread and were not harmed (1 Cor. 11:29-30 indicates that those in sin who partake of the communion can become sick or die as a judgment from God). Yet, believers still would rather claim that we never were a part of the church because we ended up leaving. A couple of verses sit there contradicting what their eyes and ears clearly tell them, but they'd rather believe the verses. I think this is what psychologists refer to as a “defense mechanism”. It is easier to pretend we weren't Christians and that everything is right in Jesus-Land, than to deal with us and our exodus.

 

If you need scriptural proof that we ex-Christians were really believers, allow me to demonstrate. All of us believed that Jesus was the Christ, the Messiah, the Son of God, our savior who died for our sins. Here are a handful of scriptures that declare that we were indeed “saved” because of this belief:

 

“Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.” Mark 16:6

 

"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.” John 3:16

 

“Whoever believes in him is not condemned” John 3:18

 

“Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life” John 3:36

 

"I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.” John 5:24

 

“I tell you the truth, he who believes has everlasting life.” John 6:47

 

“I have come into the world as a light, so that no one who believes in me should stay in darkness.” John 12:46

 

“All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name." Acts 10:43

 

“Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.” Romans 10:4

 

“Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God” 1 John 5:1

 

Christians don't like to think that we were really believers. It is deeply disturbing for them to encounter people who have lived the Christian life passionately, and then found good reason to leave, not merely a desire for a “sinful lifestyle”. Our existence says to the believer “You are pretending to have a relationship with Jesus instead of really having one.” We stand as a real example that the whole Christian religion is a sham, and that the born again experience isn't genuine (except perhaps as a metaphor of change). So many believers would rather invent a magic solution that we were somehow never really Christians in the first place, than face the fact that we were genuinely committed believers that now are not only “out” but stand against the faith we once saw as precious.

[mymistake]

No true Scotsman would ever do such a thing.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman

[francesco]

It is very christian of them

That hollier than tho attitude

They never heard the pharisee and the publican parable eh?

 

Troll them by saying this:

Are you judging me?

real christians do not judge, read your bible

Thus, you are not a real christian either

[TheRedneckProfessor]

I typically go down the path of asking, "How do you know I was never a true christian?  Were you there?  Did you ever walk a mile, or even two feet, in my shoes?"  Sometimes, I'll even add something to the effect of, "If I was never a true christian, despite how deeply I felt the lord in my life, and despite how certain I was of god's eternal love for me, how can you be sure YOU are a true christian?"

 

The reason people use this particular fallacy is to reassure themselves about their own faith.  It's designed to help them think, or hope, that they have something as a christian that you didn't have as one.  The simple truth is, they can't possibly know whether or not you were a true christian any more than they can know they are; but the need to feed the delusion, and feel morally superior, overcomes the basic reasoning skills necessary to see the simple truth.

[Roz]

My answer is this:

 

"Good!  I'm glad I wasn't a real christian!"

 

They're usually taken aback by this, or they'll further confirm that I didn't know 'true' christianity to begin with.

 

I'll come back with 1 Sam, Exo, Num, Deut, etc.  All the bible verses that accurately spell out what their god ordered and did.

If they come back with "you took those verses out of context!"  Then what context is there for those orders and deeds?

 

If they reply with "god was just merely working with humans!"  Then why did god order all the other 613 commandments that plainly dictated their eating, dressing, and other aspects of their lives?

 

If they reply with "god didn't write the book, it was written by humans!  It's not infallible!"  Then why did god deliberately allow those humans to write down his supposed commands that he 'might not've really meant?'  Deliberate obfuscation and the metaphysical peek-a-boo do not make for a great leader. 

 

In my experience, the true christians are those who don't think for themselves at least on some level.  They might protest this, but they're all a variation of Ken Ham.  Nothing will move them from their position that their god is real. 

 

Look at the christian we have now, Wololo.  He's adamant that he's a free thinker, a logical rational human being.  Sure, I believe him, but he still has that position 'nothing can move me from my god.'  That's real christian faith, the exact same faith that leads men to excuse and believe atrocities.

[Cianna200]

I was told the same thing, that I wasn't a true christian. I would just like to say that the majority of people who call themselves Christians, are not true Christians, they are Paulians. True Christians behave like Jesus, as Jesus said in the bible if you truly believe in him, you will do good deeds out of loving kindness like he did. True followers of Jesus treat others with loving kindness, and any christian who claims that he/she is christian for accepting Jesus as lord and savior is deceiving theirself, Jesus taught good works while Paul taught faith is true Christianity, Paul was a sneaky and egocentric liar. Most Christians are believing in Paul's teachings while rejecting Jesus, making Christianity the religion of Paul, Paul even founded Christianity.

[Cianna200]

I was told the same thing, that I wasn't a true christian. I would just like to say that the majority of people who call themselves Christians, are not true Christians, they are Paulians. True Christians behave like Jesus, as Jesus said in the bible if you truly believe in him, you will do good deeds out of loving kindness like he did. True followers of Jesus treat others with loving kindness, and any christian who claims that he/she is christian for accepting Jesus as lord and savior is deceiving theirself, Jesus taught good works while Paul taught faith is true Christianity, Paul was a sneaky and egocentric liar. Most Christians are believing in Paul's teachings while rejecting Jesus, making Christianity the religion of Paul, Paul even founded Christianity. If ''Christians'' even read Jesus' teachings like the sermon on the mount, the sermon on the plain, the parable of the good Samaritan, and his 3 commandments, than it is clear that heaven is attained through compassionate deeds, not by accepting Jesus as savior. Jesus never said that ''believe in me as your savior'' and you go to heaven.

[florduh]

What else could they say without jeopardizing their own questionable faith?

[Geezer]

Or the ever popular: You may have had faith, but you didn't have saving faith! When asked to provide a distinction between faith and saving faith the only answer I received was, "Well, saving faith isn't something that can be defined, but you know it when you have it." Apparently a deceived believer may "think" they have saving faith, but in reality they don't because they have been deceived by Satan.

 

I can only assume that means there really isn't an answer to the question, "What must I do to be saved?"  A person may think they have done all the things found in scripture only to discover in the end they never really were saved because they failed to cross all the required sacred t's and dot the i's. 

 

Getting saved apparently is a lot more tricky than what preachers lead people to believe. And staying save is, well, apparently impossible. When the day of final judgment comes a beleaguered soul can only hope they’ have accumulated enough “brownie” points to make the cut…….but that appears to be highly unlikely for most folks due to all the hidden "requirements". 

 

We all know folks are saved by faith through grace, but that doesn't mean "works" aren't required....but that doesn't mean they are either. Works apparently won't get anybody to heaven but lack of works will keep them out.    Huh? If you have saving faith I assume all of those bizarre scriptural dichotomies make sense, but not so much for those of us who do not possess that illusive saving faith. 

[Vigile]

'A True™ Christian doesn't judge, so you must not be one either.'

[bornagainathiest]

'A True™ Christian doesn't judge, so you must not be one either.'

 

Sorry to nipick Vigile, but Christians... are ...permitted to judge.

 

Matthew 7:1 & 2.

 “Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2 For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

 

Yes, the initial instruction is not to judge.  Because if they do, they will be judged.  

Judged according to the same measure they use to judge others.  Therefore, if Christians DO go against the instruction NOT to judge, they'd better make damn sure that their judgement of others is fair and just... because their own standard of judgement will be meted out to them.

 

See how it works?

It's both an instruction to avoid judging others (if at all possible) and a means of getting Christians to act as justly and fairly as possible.  If Christians feel they must judge others - they can expect their own standards of judgement to be used against them.  Therefore, this is an exhortation to Christians to make as fair and just a judgement as they can.  

 

Thanks,

 

BAA

[Cianna200]

'A True™ Christian doesn't judge, so you must not be one either.'

.

 

That takes a lot of spiritual growing and my spiritual status was never addressed.

[Deidre]

I have had "friends" say this to me after abandoning religion, and my answer is now "I don't live in the past, I'm no longer a Christian and that's that." We have to stop caring about what Christians think of our decisions. I'm not harming anyone, and I'm still the same person as I was when I followed that cult.

 

Albeit saner.

 

Stand firm and don't engage in arguing over why you left the faith. I don't care what people think anymore. If you love me, you will love me as an atheist too.

[Vigile]

 

'A True™ Christian doesn't judge, so you must not be one either.'

 

Sorry to nipick Vigile, but Christians... are ...permitted to judge.

 

Matthew 7:1 & 2.

 “Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2 For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

 

Yes, the initial instruction is not to judge.  Because if they do, they will be judged.  

Judged according to the same measure they use to judge others.  Therefore, if Christians DO go against the instruction NOT to judge, they'd better make damn sure that their judgement of others is fair and just... because their own standard of judgement will be meted out to them.

 

See how it works?

It's both an instruction to avoid judging others (if at all possible) and a means of getting Christians to act as justly and fairly as possible.  If Christians feel they must judge others - they can expect their own standards of judgement to be used against them.  Therefore, this is an exhortation to Christians to make as fair and just a judgement as they can.  

 

Thanks,

 

BAA

 

 

Dunno.  I just see it as a rhetorical device warning them of the consequences of judging others, not giving them the go-ahead. 

 

[Vigile]

 

'A True™ Christian doesn't judge, so you must not be one either.'

.

 

That takes a lot of spiritual growing and my spiritual status was never addressed.

 

 

We know you by your fruits and your fruits are chaff.  Depart from me for I never knew thee. 

 

[Vigile]

I have had "friends" say this to me after abandoning religion, and my answer is now "I don't live in the past, I'm no longer a Christian and that's that." We have to stop caring about what Christians think of our decisions. I'm not harming anyone, and I'm still the same person as I was when I followed that cult.

 

Albeit saner.

 

Stand firm and don't engage in arguing over why you left the faith. I don't care what people think anymore. If you love me, you will love me as an atheist too.

 

It's healthy to not care what others think here -- and something I think at least most of us naturally gravitate toward in time.  The first few times you hear it though, I think it's a challenge to your character.  It's as if the xian leveling the charge is arguing we lived our life without integrity or any depth.  And, since for many of us, the exact opposite is true -- we took our beliefs more seriously than any pew-warmer ever dreamed, when that pew-warmer makes such a challenge, it's like they are feeding us gravel. 

 

I'm personally over it as it's been years and years and I really don't care any more, but I remember all too well the first time I had this thrown at me so I can still empathize with those who aren't yet past the initial stages of their deconversion. 

[Cianna200]

 

 

 

'A True™ Christian doesn't judge, so you must not be one either.'

.

 

That takes a lot of spiritual growing and my spiritual status was never addressed.

We know you by your fruits and your fruits are chaff. Depart from me for I never knew thee.

Peace be with you but do you sir believe that you are not judging?

[Amethyst7]

If I actually shared this news with my ex husband or anyone in my former church, I know for sure that's what they would say to me.

 

If I didn't "really" believe, I sure sacrificed one hell of a lot in my life for no reason at all. What massive fakery that would have been. I gave up so much. I literally almost died for the faith. And it was all pretend. Ha.

[Cianna200]

Hmmm

[Geezer]

John 2:19 is probably the reason we're told we were never believers. 

 

 They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us.

 

 

Quoting scripture is about the only recourse a believer has when their beliefs are challenged. 

 

True story. A believer was challenging my lack of belief some months back. We exchanged a few thoughts and then he pulled out his bible and started quoting scripture at me. My response was to laugh,and that clearly shook him up. It actually more than shook him up it shocked him. He had never encountered anyone in his life, before me, that didn't believe the bible was the literal words of god.That revelation clearly caught him off guard. He had no come back and nothing else that would validate his argument. 

 

He fell silent while he gathered his thoughts. He eventually decided that since I didn't believe the bible was true there was no point in continuing our discussion, and I agreed. 

 

In the bible belt, where I live, it is not uncommon for believers to think everybody believes the bible is the literal words of god and simply cannot fathom there are those that don't just accept that as a fact. 

[Guest afireinside]

Christianity always makes you feel you are lacking, nothing ever feels right. You have faith but you question the faith and worry you are deceiving yourself. You do good works but then worry that your motives were impure or selfish. You make decisions and worry that you are not following God's intended path so are sinning by omission. You hold onto doctrine for assurance but that doctrine is always questioned by other denominations. You feel guilty the whole time and them they tell you that guilt and fear are wrong and a sign of a lack of faith. There's no sure way for a believer to feel secure. The only was is to be removed from this earth the moment you are saved and if you're still here you know for sure you played the process wrong. It's psychologically terrorizing to feel like you are a committed Christian who's not accepted and going to hell.

[Deidre]

 

I have had "friends" say this to me after abandoning religion, and my answer is now "I don't live in the past, I'm no longer a Christian and that's that." We have to stop caring about what Christians think of our decisions. I'm not harming anyone, and I'm still the same person as I was when I followed that cult.

 

Albeit saner.

 

Stand firm and don't engage in arguing over why you left the faith. I don't care what people think anymore. If you love me, you will love me as an atheist too.

 

It's healthy to not care what others think here -- and something I think at least most of us naturally gravitate toward in time.  The first few times you hear it though, I think it's a challenge to your character.  It's as if the xian leveling the charge is arguing we lived our life without integrity or any depth.  And, since for many of us, the exact opposite is true -- we took our beliefs more seriously than any pew-warmer ever dreamed, when that pew-warmer makes such a challenge, it's like they are feeding us gravel. 

 

I'm personally over it as it's been years and years and I really don't care any more, but I remember all too well the first time I had this thrown at me so I can still empathize with those who aren't yet past the initial stages of their deconversion.

 

True, my journey was pretty long and it wasn't easy to simply let go of a life I once led as a Christian. Took my heart a little while to catch up to my mind.

 

Another way to answer the verbal attack ''you were never a real Christian,'' is by saying...''well, you're right. I was never a homophobic, sexist slave owner, so you're right. I was never a real Christian.'

 

 

Mouths will drop open.

[rach]

Living proof right here that extremely committed long-term Bible-believing Christians do "fall away" for good, and do not become depraved but rather are leaving behind a depraved religion in search of true morality. 

[Deidre]

Living proof right here that extremely committed long-term Bible-believing Christians do "fall away" for good, and do not become depraved but rather are leaving behind a depraved religion in search of true morality.

This is really beautiful and moved me to read this. Something so simple, yet so true.