Genesis 49:10

[Kris]

Has anyone heard of genesis 49:10 being a prophecy of Christ? It mentions that the scepter and law will stay with Judah until Shiloh comes. Christians say that the law was taken away from the Sanhedrin during Jesus time and then the scepter was removed when the temple was destroyed in 70 ad. I am trying to debunk this a prophecy of Jesus--

 

I noticed that Saul was the first ruler of Judah-- but he was a Benjamite-- not from the tribe of Judah. Also, there was a period in which there were no Israeli kings after the first exile--the Levite priests ruled as a theocracy. After the temple fell, the Sanhedrin was reinstated and ruled until 400ad. There were also exilarchs during the first and second exiles, right up until 1000's ad. So, does any of this help to debunk the claim that the law and rule of Judah ended with "Jesus/Shiloh"?

[Overcame Faith]

I always like to see what the Jews have to say about these so-called prophecies that prove Jesus was the Messiah. See if this helps, Kris. I'll tell you, there no better Christian debunkers than the Jewish biblical scholars.

 

http://www.whatjewsbelieve.org/prooftext4gen4910.html

[centauri]

Yes, it's another one of those "fabulous" prophecy items that Christians are so fond of finding under every rock and in every crevice.

However, Jesus has no tribal identity because he has no biological father.

Tribal identity is determined by males only.

He cannot be said to come from the tribe of Judah, which became a requirement after Saul died.

Even brushing that large problem aside, Jesus never sat on the throne nor was he anointed as king.

[mwc]

     Yes.  It's very old.  From Wikipedia on Shiloh:

 

Versions and translations

The Latin Vulgate translates the word as "he ... that is to be sent",^[2] which would be the equivalent of the Hebrew shaluach (Hebrew: שלוח‎, "messenger"), indicating a possible corruption of the text (on either side). The Peshitta has "the one to whom [it] belongs"^[3] Similarly, the Septuagint translates the word to "the things stored up for him".^[4][5]

 

Some English translations retain the word "Shiloh", either as a title ("until Shiloh come," King James Version) or as a place name ("as long as men come to Shiloh," JPS Tanakh). Other translations render the whole phrase in English, yielding "until he comes to whom it belongs" (Revised Standard Version), "until tribute comes to him" (English Standard Version) or "until He whose right it is comes" (Holman Christian Standard Bible).

Interpretation

The reference to sceptre and the Tribe of Judah has led many people to view this verse as a Messianic prophecy. This interpretation goes back at least as far as the Targum Onkelos in the first century AD.^[6]

 

Among Christians, "Shiloh" is seen as a reference to Jesus. Shiloh is not mentioned in the New Testament,^[7] although some have connected it to the Pool of Siloam, referred to in the story of the healing of the man born blind.^[8] However, Genesis 49:10 became a major messianic text appealed to by the early Church Fathers.^[7] The Christian messianic interpretation is found in the capitalisation of the pronoun "He" in the Holman Christian Standard Bible ("until He whose right it is comes").

 

Some Muslims interpret it as a prophecy of Muhammad.^[9]

 

     Here's a chunk from the other Shiloh (city):

 

Long before the advent of the Israelites, Shiloh, in the Ephraimite Hill Country, was a walled city with a religious shrine or sanctuary during Middle and Late Bronze Age Canaan.^[2] When the Israelites arrived in the land (and when they did is uncertain) they set up there the ancient wilderness tent shrine (the Tent of Meeting: Heb. 'Ohel-Mo'ed') and there Joshua divided the land among the tribes. Subsequently, Shiloh became one of the leading religious shrines in ancient Israel, a status it held until shortly before David's elevation of Jerusalem.^[3]

 

Shiloh is mentioned in the Hebrew Bible as an assembly place for the people of Israel. Technically, Shiloh was the site of the 'Ohel-Mo'ed--the Tent of Meeting--which was set up there when Joshua apportioned the land among the various Israelite tribes (Joshua 18ff.). In this sense, the Tent of Meeting is to be distinguished from the "Dwelling Place"--the Mishkan--often translated "Tabernacle". The "whole congregation of Israel assembled...and set up the tabernacle of the congregation..." (Joshua 18:1), built under Moses' direction from God (Exodus 26) to house the Ark of the Covenant, also built under Moses' direction from God (Exodus 25). According to Talmudic sources, the tent sanctuary remained at Shiloh for 369 years^[4] until the Ark of the Covenant was taken into the battle camp (1 Samuel 4:3–5) at Eben-Ezer and captured by the Philistines at Aphek (probably Antipatris). At some point during its long stay at Shiloh, the portable tent seems to have been enclosed within a compound--a Greek "temenos". According to I Samuel 1-3, Shiloh was the site of a physical structure that had "doors" (1 Samuel 3:15). At some point, the Tent of Meeting was moved to Gibeon,^[5] which became an Israelite holy site under David and Solomon.

 

Shiloh was one of the main centers of Israelite worship during the pre-monarchic period,^[6] by virtue of the Tent Shrine being there, and by virtue of the Ark of the Covenant being kept there. The people made pilgrimages there for major feasts and sacrifices, and Judges 21 records the place as the site of an annual dance of maidens among the vineyards.

 

According to I Sam 1-3, the sanctuary at Shiloh was administered by the Aaronite high priest Eli and his two sons, Hophni and Phineas. According to this account,the young Samuel was dedicated by his mother Hannah there, to be raised at the shrine by the high priest, and his own prophetic ministry is presented as having begun there. It was under Eli and his sons that the Ark was lost to Israel in a battle with the Philistines at Aphek. The great biblical historian and archaeologist, W.F. Albright, hypothesized that the Philistines had also destroyed Shiloh at this time, but this conclusion is disputed.^[7] The place may have been destroyed later as well, and the biblical text records no such claimed destruction. Certainly, the shadowy figure of Ahijjah the Shilonite,^[8] who instigated the revolt of Jeroboam the son of Nebat against David's grandson Rehoboam (I Kings 11, 14) came from there, and he bore, interestingly, the same name as the Aaronite priest who consulted the Ark for Saul in I Sam. 14:3. It is also not clear that the narratives of I Samuel are in chronological order here, since Saul is represented as carrying the Ark into battle.^[9] Schley has claimed that the capture of the Ark and the death of Saul occurred in the same battle and that the later Davidic editors redacted the current texts to make it appear as if Saul had ruled without either Tent Shrine or Ark, and thus without sacral legitimacy.^[10]

 

What is certain is that during the prophetic ministry of Jeremiah (7:12-15; 26:5-9), over three hundred years later, Shiloh had been reduced to ruins. Jeremiah used the example of Shiloh to warn the inhabitants of Judah and Jerusalem just what Yahuah elohim will do to the "place where I caused my name to dwell", warning of them that their holy city, too, like Shiloh, could fall under divine judgment.

     I would be inclined to think that the reference was to this city.  That the seat of power was with Judah until it could be restored to Shiloh (for whatever reason it wasn't with Shiloh at the time).  The history is all here and the "prophecy" didn't really pan-out anyhow.  It's not like the "law" as we tend to imagine it had been given yet anyhow.  What was there?  Some loose concept of the god of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob as well as circumcision?  This doesn't seem quite right to me.  Especially since the Levites and Aaron were ultimately given control over "the law" and they're not contained in any one tribe.

 

          mwc

[Kris]

Thanks everyone for your comments-- and the link OF. That was very helpful!