Thomas Paine's Thoughts About Faith Alone V. Good Works

[RipVanWinkle]

Thomas Paine, in his ''Examination of the Prophesies" notes the difference in the salvation plan between Matthew and Mark. Mark goes with "faith alone" and Matthew states that salvation requires "good works", not to god who doesn't need them, but to people. I love that quote of jesus in Matthew in which he says, "Whatsoever you do for the least of them my brethren, you do unto me".

 

Paine points out that there is a clear conflict between the two salvation plans. He then asks why this conflict is not covered by the clergy.

 

    "If it be asked, why do not the priests preach the doctrine contained in this chapter, the answer is                    easy: they are not fond of practicing it themselves. It does not answer for their trade. They had rather get      than give. Charity with them begins and ends at home."

 

This over 200 years ago. Can you imagine what balls it took for Paine to publish that in the 18th Century? Can you imagine the reaction of the clergy? Despite his heroic efforts to gain support for the American Revolution, after this and "The Age of Reason" were published, he was despised by many in America, to such an extent that he was forced to leave the country and go to Europe. There are many in America who still feel the same way. We're still battling the same issue to this day. Has much progress been made in that regard?    bill

[rach]

The last thing most Christians want to believe is that it actually takes good works aka morality to get into heaven.  All they want is "faith alone, faith alone".  Let's just believe Jesus died for us and do whatever the hell we want.  Believe he died for you and you're free to be the most immoral asshole of a person that ever lived.   I guess it worked for King David.  http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/lewis/lewun03.htm#CHAP9

[TheRedneckProfessor]

Okay, I admit.  Sometimes, as a christian, I would tell new believers that it was necessary to have faith IN good works in order to be saved.  What can I say?  I've always enjoyed fucking with people's minds.  

[Adam5]

I think there are lots of places in the Bible that teach salvation by works. Martin Luther called the book of James an "epistle of straw", and thought about dropping it from his German bible.

 

These contradictions simply demonstrate the man made nature of the Bible and the man made nature of religion.  I agree Thomas Paine was brave to point the facts out about Christianity.

[RipVanWinkle]

Xtians (too many of them) are happy to take salvation for free, pass judgment  on everyone who disagrees and eschew good works like the plague.  Such a deal.   bill

[viocjit]

I think that this work is important because he was among the first who dare criticise Christianity in the 18th century. Also I can remember that there are a moment where he is speaking about the similarities about Jesus and Greek mythological figures.

But in another hand we see that he haven't the scientifical knowledge that we have today. (In particular where he is speaking about the solar system).

I precise that I read it in a modern English version because this is little difficult to undersand it in the original text as a non-native English speaker.

My native language is French.

[Neverlandrut]

I was taught salvation FOR good works. Christians have experimented with all different conjunctions to marry the two doctrines. But that still doesn't add up. Paul clearly teaches "salvation apart from works." James clearly teaches "salvation by faith and works." He even asks the rhetorical question about faith without works, "Can such faith save a man?" The implied answer definitely being NO. This directly contradicts Paul. I agree... This conflict only highlights the fact that these, like the others, are man-made doctrines.

[Neverlandrut]

There are tons of places in the bible that say each man will be judged according to "the deeds done in the flesh, whether good or bad." Not surprising that Christians today still can't agree on this. The bible doesn't even agree on it.

[RipVanWinkle]

"The last thing most Christians want to believe is that it actually takes good works aka morality to get into heaven. All they want is "faith alone, faith alone". Let's just believe Jesus died for us and do whatever the hell we want." rach

 

Talk about a cheap, third rate religion.... And look what arrogant bastards such a belief produces. At

least faith plus works would or should humble xtians to a degree. They could never be certain they have

done enough works to make their faith acceptable to god. bill

[Neverlandrut]

"The last thing most Christians want to believe is that it actually takes good works aka morality to get into heaven. All they want is "faith alone, faith alone". Let's just believe Jesus died for us and do whatever the hell we want." rach

 

Talk about a cheap, third rate religion.... And look what arrogant bastards such a belief produces. At

least faith plus works would or should humble xtians to a degree. They could never be certain they have

done enough works to make their faith acceptable to god. bill

My early days in Christianity reflected this sentiment. It was basically a "get-out-of-hell free card." You can do anything you want as long as you repent afterward. Despicable!