Roz Posted May 16, 2014 Posted May 16, 2014 Yeah, we're all bastards and bitches, making the poor christians cry and go away with hurt feelings. Oh no, their feelings are hurt! Hang on a minute. I need to ask this question in all honesty. How does one ask a christian why their god either killed or commanded to kill the defenseless? When you get some random apologetic that doesn't make a damn bit of sense, or when they come back with "I don't know, but I follow him anyways." How do you keep from viewing that person with some level of suspicion and distrust? Honestly, how is that not like the German civilian saying "don't ask me about those camps, but I'll follow Hitler anyways." Those of you in chat a few days back, I was very cordial to Wololo. He's gone on with his 'philosophizing' and it seemed like he truly believed what he was saying. But in my head I cannot let go of his non-explanation of why his god ordered mindbending what-the-fuckery in the bible. "But I'll follow him anyways." How do you ex christians view those christians in your lives when you know exactly what their master ordered? For me I cannot view my friends and family in the same way. Imagine 'colored folk' trying to defend Lev. 25. Yes, Roz is not a white man. It's honestly a clusterfuck. Society expects the atheist to be nice and not hurt christian feelings. But the christian is tolerated and even commended for having suspicions and disgust for the non-believer.
FreeThinkerNZ Posted May 16, 2014 Posted May 16, 2014 Yeah, we're all bastards and bitches, making the poor christians cry and go away with hurt feelings. Oh no, their feelings are hurt! Hang on a minute. I need to ask this question in all honesty. How does one ask a christian why their god either killed or commanded to kill the defenseless? When you get some random apologetic that doesn't make a damn bit of sense, or when they come back with "I don't know, but I follow him anyways." How do you keep from viewing that person with some level of suspicion and distrust? Honestly, how is that not like the German civilian saying "don't ask me about those camps, but I'll follow Hitler anyways." Those of you in chat a few days back, I was very cordial to Wololo. He's gone on with his 'philosophizing' and it seemed like he truly believed what he was saying. But in my head I cannot let go of his non-explanation of why his god ordered mindbending what-the-fuckery in the bible. "But I'll follow him anyways." How do you ex christians view those christians in your lives when you know exactly what their master ordered? For me I cannot view my friends and family in the same way. Imagine 'colored folk' trying to defend Lev. 25. Yes, Roz is not a white man. It's honestly a clusterfuck. Society expects the atheist to be nice and not hurt christian feelings. But the christian is tolerated and even commended for having suspicions and disgust for the non-believer. I agree with approaching xian apologists in the Lion's Den with suspicion, distrust, then ridicule, and if necessary, hostility. I don't view xian friends and family that way. They don't treat me with suspicion and disgust. They just fear for my (nonexistent) mortal soul. So I just treat them as mistaken and gullible. The only way I can treat that sort of person is with pity. They caught the virus just like I did. Perhaps the difference is that I have a relationship with the latter. Plus, the former is invading my space with an ulterior motive.
Roz Posted May 16, 2014 Author Posted May 16, 2014 I get what you're saying FTNZ, but I can't help but view christians as those Nazi sympathizers in Germany. Yes, that example again. They're either ignorant about those verses (this is what I keep telling myself, it's by far the lesser of the two evils) or that they're willing to suppress their god killing children because they want to go to heaven. I honestly can't view christians the same way. They might be good, kind, decent people, but when Hitler orders them to commit some atrocity, I shudder at their reply.
Orbit Posted May 17, 2014 Posted May 17, 2014 Yelling at them just feeds their persecution complex, unfortunately. But I can't resist the occasional snide comment myself.
Guest afireinside Posted May 17, 2014 Posted May 17, 2014 These people who come here with the specific intent to evangelise and defend their rotten traditions by way of philosophy, testimony, second-rate science, questionable historical sources, apologetic website links need to understand we have heard all that shit before, we've read and studied more convincing and well thought out arguments than theirs. They choose to see only what they want to see, theirs is selective education and a refusal to consider reasoning or truth outside their own religion. Before they can come into a group of people who for the most part resent their belief system they first need to be honest with themselves and sincerely question their beliefs and realise some aspects are hideous and indefensible and admit when pointed out that those things are both relevant to their religion and a problem to their belief or their God. No acknowledgement comes, it is insincerely and ignorance on their part, no admission of their God being a tyrant just the same tired old excuses we all used to conjur up when we were attacked by reason.
FreeThinkerNZ Posted May 17, 2014 Posted May 17, 2014 I get what you're saying FTNZ, but I can't help but view christians as those Nazi sympathizers in Germany. Yes, that example again. They're either ignorant about those verses (this is what I keep telling myself, it's by far the lesser of the two evils) or that they're willing to suppress their god killing children because they want to go to heaven. I honestly can't view christians the same way. They might be good, kind, decent people, but when Hitler orders them to commit some atrocity, I shudder at their reply. I think either option is reprehensible. I was both things as a xian. I hadn't read hardly any of the OT, and the parts I knew about I simply suppressed/dodged/justified on the basis of mystery. (That's what I think my friends and family are doing). If I thought at any time god had been ordering me to commit an atrocity, I would have deconverted on the spot.
mymistake Posted May 17, 2014 Posted May 17, 2014 Yeah, we're all bastards and bitches, making the poor christians cry and go away with hurt feelings. Oh no, their feelings are hurt! Hang on a minute. I need to ask this question in all honesty. How does one ask a christian why their god either killed or commanded to kill the defenseless? When you get some random apologetic that doesn't make a damn bit of sense, or when they come back with "I don't know, but I follow him anyways." How do you keep from viewing that person with some level of suspicion and distrust? Honestly, how is that not like the German civilian saying "don't ask me about those camps, but I'll follow Hitler anyways." Those of you in chat a few days back, I was very cordial to Wololo. He's gone on with his 'philosophizing' and it seemed like he truly believed what he was saying. But in my head I cannot let go of his non-explanation of why his god ordered mindbending what-the-fuckery in the bible. "But I'll follow him anyways." How do you ex christians view those christians in your lives when you know exactly what their master ordered? For me I cannot view my friends and family in the same way. Imagine 'colored folk' trying to defend Lev. 25. Yes, Roz is not a white man. It's honestly a clusterfuck. Society expects the atheist to be nice and not hurt christian feelings. But the christian is tolerated and even commended for having suspicions and disgust for the non-believer. There is no polite way to tell somebody that they have devoted their life to a delusion. 1
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted May 17, 2014 Super Moderator Posted May 17, 2014 I agree that christians who come in to The Lion's Den can, and sometimes should be, met with strong and even aggressive resistance. I care nothing for their feelings, personally. However, for my part, I did react with anger to both WoeLOL and TinPony this past week. Such anger, while sometimes justified, can also send the wrong signals to the lurkers on this site who look to us to remain level-headed, confident, and rational during our discourse with christians. We must always remember, we do not fight the good fight in order that one or two apologists might see reason; we do it for the honest lurkers who seek the wise and sagacious council this forum provides. WoeLOL, in my opinion, was arrogant, brash, and completely dishonest and disingenuous during his tenure here; if his feelings got hurt, perhaps he will think twice before rushing in where angels fear to tread next time around. However, sensitivity toward the lurkers must remain at the forefront of our minds at all times. *Hugs to any lurkers reading this.
midniterider Posted May 17, 2014 Posted May 17, 2014 Yeah, we're all bastards and bitches, making the poor christians cry and go away with hurt feelings. Oh no, their feelings are hurt! Hang on a minute. I need to ask this question in all honesty. How does one ask a christian why their god either killed or commanded to kill the defenseless? When you get some random apologetic that doesn't make a damn bit of sense, or when they come back with "I don't know, but I follow him anyways." How do you keep from viewing that person with some level of suspicion and distrust? Honestly, how is that not like the German civilian saying "don't ask me about those camps, but I'll follow Hitler anyways." Those of you in chat a few days back, I was very cordial to Wololo. He's gone on with his 'philosophizing' and it seemed like he truly believed what he was saying. But in my head I cannot let go of his non-explanation of why his god ordered mindbending what-the-fuckery in the bible. "But I'll follow him anyways." How do you ex christians view those christians in your lives when you know exactly what their master ordered? For me I cannot view my friends and family in the same way. Imagine 'colored folk' trying to defend Lev. 25. Yes, Roz is not a white man. It's honestly a clusterfuck. Society expects the atheist to be nice and not hurt christian feelings. But the christian is tolerated and even commended for having suspicions and disgust for the non-believer. They have been programmed to believe that God is good all the time, all the time God is good. And never question that or God will get ya. Couple that with 'you must believe the way I believe' and you have a basic Christian.So when we dont agree, we're jerks and have a closed mind....except we used to believe the way they believed...so....
midniterider Posted May 17, 2014 Posted May 17, 2014 Yeah, we're all bastards and bitches, making the poor christians cry and go away with hurt feelings. Oh no, their feelings are hurt! Hang on a minute. I need to ask this question in all honesty. How does one ask a christian why their god either killed or commanded to kill the defenseless? When you get some random apologetic that doesn't make a damn bit of sense, or when they come back with "I don't know, but I follow him anyways." How do you keep from viewing that person with some level of suspicion and distrust? Honestly, how is that not like the German civilian saying "don't ask me about those camps, but I'll follow Hitler anyways." Those of you in chat a few days back, I was very cordial to Wololo. He's gone on with his 'philosophizing' and it seemed like he truly believed what he was saying. But in my head I cannot let go of his non-explanation of why his god ordered mindbending what-the-fuckery in the bible. "But I'll follow him anyways." How do you ex christians view those christians in your lives when you know exactly what their master ordered? For me I cannot view my friends and family in the same way. Imagine 'colored folk' trying to defend Lev. 25. Yes, Roz is not a white man. It's honestly a clusterfuck. Society expects the atheist to be nice and not hurt christian feelings. But the christian is tolerated and even commended for having suspicions and disgust for the non-believer. I agree with approaching xian apologists in the Lion's Den with suspicion, distrust, then ridicule, and if necessary, hostility. I don't view xian friends and family that way. They don't treat me with suspicion and disgust. They just fear for my (nonexistent) mortal soul. So I just treat them as mistaken and gullible. The only way I can treat that sort of person is with pity. They caught the virus just like I did. Perhaps the difference is that I have a relationship with the latter. Plus, the former is invading my space with an ulterior motive. When I was told over and over for 10 years that I should go out and make disciples of all people and all nations....it's obvious what a Christian apologist's motive is.
Guest afireinside Posted May 17, 2014 Posted May 17, 2014 Let's face it, even when we weren't evangelising we were looking for openings or opportunities to evangelise. It's part and parcel of being a serious Christian. Any genuine Chtistian who says their intention is not to push Jesus is a liar because sharing Jesus is what they feel they have to do. Honesty and respect are two sides of the same coin are far as I'm concerned.
FreeThinkerNZ Posted May 17, 2014 Posted May 17, 2014 I agree that christians who come in to The Lion's Den can, and sometimes should be, met with strong and even aggressive resistance. I care nothing for their feelings, personally. However, for my part, I did react with anger to both WoeLOL and TinPony this past week. Such anger, while sometimes justified, can also send the wrong signals to the lurkers on this site who look to us to remain level-headed, confident, and rational during our discourse with christians. We must always remember, we do not fight the good fight in order that one or two apologists might see reason; we do it for the honest lurkers who seek the wise and sagacious council this forum provides. WoeLOL, in my opinion, was arrogant, brash, and completely dishonest and disingenuous during his tenure here; if his feelings got hurt, perhaps he will think twice before rushing in where angels fear to tread next time around. However, sensitivity toward the lurkers must remain at the forefront of our minds at all times. *Hugs to any lurkers reading this. QFT I remember being a lurker here. I think "rising above" is the best look, from a lurker's perspective. Sort of a blend of rising above and snide comments, lol.
RipVanWinkle Posted May 17, 2014 Posted May 17, 2014 I agree with you FreeThinkerNZ. My anger at Xtians gets control of me from time to time. So I understand what you guys are saying. But what purpose does our anger serve when directed to Xtians who are new here? RNP is right. We are being watched by Xtians some of whom are genuinely interested in what we have to say to answer these jerks who think they have all the answers. I think we can turn those who are genuine off when we immediately get hostile to the jerks. Remember, the sincere Xtians who visit here don't know the jerks are jerks. Also, fear is driving some of the jerks. Despite their refusal to think rationally, they really think god is on their side. They believe faith in god trumps what humans can understand, so whatever the bible says that may appear wrong is really right. If we assume these jerks are willfully or selfishly misleading us we may very well be giving ourselves credit where we should not. The major mistake that we all, I believe, made before deconverting was to either consciously or subconsciously think we are right because otherwise god would not have allowed us to be so wrong when we were so sincere. I know, that's illogical. But being illogical is a universal characteristic of mankind. I also know that I have gotten hostile, too and are being inconsistent with what I sometimes do. But it is what it is. bill
RipVanWinkle Posted May 17, 2014 Posted May 17, 2014 "I remember being a lurker here. I think "rising above" is the best look, from a lurker's perspective. Sort of a blend of rising above and snide comments, lol." FreeThinkerNZ Right FreeThinker. We don't want to give them ammunition to attack us when they talk to other Xtians, some of whom might be close to deconverting. bill
mymistake Posted May 17, 2014 Posted May 17, 2014 A good rule of thumb is when a new Christians shows up give them a little breathing space. Most Christians will be the missionary type. However a significant minority are people that want to deconvert and they wind up with the "authentic Christian" badge because they were just not quite ready to deny Christ in the registration questions. I have no problem with people debating with the missionary types or even being rude when they are rude. But I hope people won't rush to the point that they scare away those who would become one of us.
francesco Posted May 17, 2014 Posted May 17, 2014 We should face christian with love We have to love our enemy and be more christian than christian themselves Just like gandhi who love his enemy even though he was colonialized and rejected by christians "If your enemy is a troll, feed him; if he is thirsty of knowledge, give him something to think. In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head." :troll: 1
Guest afireinside Posted May 17, 2014 Posted May 17, 2014 I think we were kind and respectful to Waldo at the start but he was full of himself to the point of arrogance. I think the fact he was banned from a xtian forum prior to here suggests he has issues with interacting with others, even those who share his worldview.
Vigile Posted May 17, 2014 Posted May 17, 2014 If you're saying you should be able to open both barrels and shoot while you're here on this forum, then I'm 100% in agreement. If you're saying we should blame the xians in our lives and hold them personally accountable for their fucked up belief systems, then not so much. We can always find reasons to hate one another, but the world will be a pretty fucked up place if we go around applying some distorted Kantian maxim to every believer. Most xians wouldn't hurt a fly and the fact that their god would is compartmentalized in their minds. They are better than their gods, so we should treat and think of them as such IMO.
FreeThinkerNZ Posted May 17, 2014 Posted May 17, 2014 "Most xians wouldn't hurt a fly"... not sure I agree with that, but I do get your overall point. A lot of the harm xianity does in society comes down to the choices of individual xians. The professional ones are most to blame, but many of the laypeople are guilty of homophobia, sexism, racism, anti-choice activism, dissing atheists, indoctrinating children with creationism, diverting needed household funds to line the coffers of the professionals etc etc. Everyone is responsible for the positive and negative effects of their choices.
Vigile Posted May 17, 2014 Posted May 17, 2014 "Most xians wouldn't hurt a fly"... not sure I agree with that, but I do get your overall point. A lot of the harm xianity does in society comes down to the choices of individual xians. The professional ones are most to blame, but many of the laypeople are guilty of homophobia, sexism, racism, anti-choice activism, dissing atheists, indoctrinating children with creationism, diverting needed household funds to line the coffers of the professionals etc etc. Everyone is responsible for the positive and negative effects of their choices. And many more are just CINOS. Moreover, people aren't the sum whole of their belief system. My parents, for example, are fundies, whom I disagree with in terms of politics and social policy, but they are also warm, loving people. Am I to take a militant attitude toward them because they are pro-life and anti gay in their politics? What a horrible world I live in if that were a maxim I'm forced to live by. It will be a lonely and hateful place for both me and them. I choose to love them instead as they are, for all their minor faults, really wonderful people as I know many xians are.
FreeThinkerNZ Posted May 17, 2014 Posted May 17, 2014 "Most xians wouldn't hurt a fly"... not sure I agree with that, but I do get your overall point. A lot of the harm xianity does in society comes down to the choices of individual xians. The professional ones are most to blame, but many of the laypeople are guilty of homophobia, sexism, racism, anti-choice activism, dissing atheists, indoctrinating children with creationism, diverting needed household funds to line the coffers of the professionals etc etc. Everyone is responsible for the positive and negative effects of their choices. And many more are just CINOS. Moreover, people aren't the sum whole of their belief system. My parents, for example, are fundies, whom I disagree with in terms of politics and social policy, but they are also warm, loving people. Am I to take a militant attitude toward them because they are pro-life and anti gay in their politics? What a horrible world I live in if that were a maxim I'm forced to live by. It will be a lonely and hateful place for both me and them. I choose to love them instead as they are, for all their minor faults, really wonderful people as I know many xians are. My parents are the same. I get on well with them. I guess at a societal level I am almost a single issue voter when it comes to pro-choice. I don't gravitate towards people who are anti-choice. I think their beliefs are a threat to everyone's bodily integrity and personal autonomy (because if they win on abortion, they will later win on euthanasia etc). Call me obsessive if you like but I have a big problem with what I see as the harm that xians do. Similar to how many gay people might feel about them.
Vigile Posted May 17, 2014 Posted May 17, 2014 Despite, IMO, is a wonderful word. We humans have the ability to love others despite their faults. If that weren't the case, we'd all be screwed.
bornagainathiest Posted May 17, 2014 Posted May 17, 2014 My 50 cents worth. . . . How does our hostility help the people this site was created to serve? How are the lurkers helped by our hostility towards the Christians? How are the Christians shown for what they really are by our hostility? How does our hostility refute their arguments and uncover their lies? . . . Please note that I'm not a saint and I'm not sitting in judgement on anyone. I'm a human being and I lose it from time time. We all do. But there is an example we can look to for guidance. There are people of good conscience who have made the commitment not to display any hostility towards a small group of Bible-obsessed Christian zealots who picket the funerals of our fallen servicemen and women. They are serving those who are hurt and grieving, by shielding from further harm. Doing so with self-control, in the face of extreme provocation, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mcj5318xq_4 My friends, I submit that we share a similar purpose in this forum. We are here to help and protect those leaving Christianity from further harm. Imho, hostility plays no part of that process. With all due respect and thanks, BAA.
Roz Posted May 17, 2014 Author Posted May 17, 2014 I get all of your points, thanks guys. However, how should one treat a christian who really believe that slavery, rape, and mass murder in the OT was somehow a good thing? Seriously, just cross out the OT and put in another instance like it in the 20th century and they'll heartily agree that it was a horrific incident, and that the perpetrators were bad people. Cross out the 20th century example and put in the OT and they'll praise the criminals and make up excuses as to how those acts were good. How can I, in all honesty, view these people? EDIT: How should I would've been a better way to phrase that, but ya'll get my point.
Vigile Posted May 17, 2014 Posted May 17, 2014 I doubt most xians really believe murder, rape, etc... are or ever were good things. They are just indoctrinated to believe that they have the 'truth' and they have a hard time connecting the dots as to the implications of that so-called truth. Justifications they offer are just defense mechanisms for them. You can, if you wish, go off on a moral crusade that pits your own morality above that of 90% of the planet who believe in things that have fucked up implications, but it seems a lonely, losing battle to wage IMO.
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