Christians, Would You Kill For Jesus?

[thunderbolt]

I heard this debate between "Dr" Gastrich and an athiest (cannot remember who) and an interesting question was posed to the "dr" which he would not answer in so many words. I would like to pose the same question to you, so here is the scenario:

 

Let's say things get really dire and your precious faith is slowly being dismantled from all corners of our "morally going down the toilet" society as the religious right is telling us every single day. Let's further assume that there is no sign of Jesus' return on the horizon to come and "judge" these godless heathens, and then one day, deep in your prayer closet, you hear Jesus' "still small" voice commanding you:

 

Kill all the infidels who oppose me as their lord and king.

 

Would you obey this command, and if not, why not?

[SkepticOfBible]

I heard this debate between "Dr" Gastrich and an athiest (cannot remember who) a

 

The atheist was Dan Barker.

 

thanks for the question. I was gonna ask a similar question.

[Ssel]

IF you asked an atheist a similar question where he heard a superior sounding voice in his mind, how would he reply?

 

The atheist is not a single type of person with a single understanding, neither is a Christian.

 

I would answer that question in a far different and more serious way than an SCC.

[thunderbolt]

Ssel

 

1. This question wasn't asked to atheists, but to Christians (I assume you are one.)

2. What the heck is "SCC" - Standard Christian C??

3. Answer the question from your best understanding of the scriptures.

 

It's not a trick question, but you are doing exactly what Gastrich was doing – tap-dancing your way around the question.

[Ssel]

It's not a trick question, but you are doing exactly what Gastrich was doing – tap-dancing your way around the question.

You don't distinguish "tap dancing" from “clarifying” so I have no idea what the "Dr" really was trying to say. But because you said "from your best understanding", I'll answer the questions.

 

SCC = Santa Claus Christian ("fundy" - Protestant), this has been discussed on many threads.

 

My answer to your question…

 

I have very deeply serious logical reasons for declaring that killing is a last resort. My reasonings have nothing to do with simply being a nice guy or attempting to follow anyone else's "Holy" word. As I pointed out in the UNholiness thread, the Holy commandment to never kill is anything but Holy.

 

But to kill must rationally be the final choice after ALL other options have been explored and attempted within the time allowed before the decision must be made. Jesus said to ALWAYS pray. This actually meant to ALWAYS seek every option and opportunity available. I can only see the highest rationality in that advice.

 

Unfortunately this means that some of the options to consider will risk, with a certain possibility and probability, of being killed in the effort of avoiding the death of another. This is a risk of both courage and the balance of which is really seen as better. At this point, the issue is no longer whether to kill, but whom.

 

That is another lengthy discussion.

[Lycorth]

This is one of those questions Xian fundies hate, because if you take the Bible seriously, you would have to be willing to kill for Jesus. After all, he is necessary for the world, not your neighbor's newborn baby. There were times I agreed with that, and that is a scary thought.

 

Fundies hate this topic because it makes them admit the cruelty of their religion, or else makes them deny their savior before men.

[No Heaven for Kevin]

IF you asked an atheist a similar question where he heard a superior sounding voice in his mind, how would he reply?

 

Speaking for myself, if I heard voices in my head (doesn't matter if they or violent or otherwise), I would go see a doctor real quick.

[thunderbolt]

SCC = Santa Claus Christian ("fundy" - Protestant), this has been discussed on many threads.

Thanks for clearing that up for me!

 

I have very deeply serious logical reasons for declaring that killing is a last resort. My reasonings have nothing to do with simply being a nice guy or attempting to follow anyone else's "Holy" word. As I pointed out in the UNholiness thread, the Holy commandment to never kill is anything but Holy.

 

Killing for your faith a "last resort?" Thanks for being honest that you would go the distance. I am shocked, but not surprised.

 

But to kill must rationally be the final choice after ALL other options have been explored and attempted within the time allowed before the decision must be made. Jesus said to ALWAYS pray. This actually meant to ALWAYS seek every option and opportunity available. I can only see the highest rationality in that advice.

 

That seems rather subjective to me, which makes it even more troublesome. But I will take the opposite side side - it's highly irrational to follow voices in your head to kill another human being. It makes you no different than a muslim terrorists. Sadly, Christian history bear witness to this delusion.

 

At this point, the issue is no longer whether to kill, but whom.

 

 

 

This is one of those questions Xian fundies hate, because if you take the Bible seriously, you would have to be willing to kill for Jesus. After all, he is necessary for the world, not your neighbor's newborn baby. There were times I agreed with that, and that is a scary thought.

 

Fundies hate this topic because it makes them admit the cruelty of their religion, or else makes them deny their savior before men.

 

Yeah, ain't that true! It's one of those questions that separate the goats from the sheep.

[Ssel]

Killing for your faith a "last resort?" Thanks for being honest that you would go the distance. I am shocked, but not surprised.

My "faith" is merely discribed as what I know of Reality. If you follow something else besides what you know of Reality, then I'd have to say that you are the one to worry about.

That seems rather subjective to me, which makes it even more troublesome.

The reason that things becomes subjective is simply that in reality many things are too complex to deal with as a black or white issue. You simply have to let your mind make its best guess. The exact reasons for this were to be discussed on the Black Box thread.

But I will take the opposite side side - it's highly irrational to follow voices in your head to kill another human being. It makes you no different than a muslim terrorists.

That somewhat depends on what you call a "voice from God"

 

Your displaying a total lack of understanding of the religion. - not surprized.

 

Killing for your faith a "last resort?" Thanks for being honest that you would go the distance. I am shocked, but not surprised.

My "faith" is merely discribed as what I know of Reality. If you follow something else besides what you know of Reality, then I'd have to say that you are the one to worry about.

That seems rather subjective to me, which makes it even more troublesome.

The reason that things becomes subjective is simply that in reality many things are too complex to deal with as a black or white issue. You simply have to let your mind make its best guess. The exact reasons for this were to be discussed on the Black Box thread.

But I will take the opposite side side - it's highly irrational to follow voices in your head to kill another human being. It makes you no different than a muslim terrorists.

That somewhat depends on what you call a "voice from God"

 

Your displaying a total lack of understanding of the religion. - not surprized.

[thunderbolt]

The reality of faith - what an oxymoron - but hey, if it floats your boat ...

 

I love your “rationalizations” to rationalize why it's rational for you to use your faith/religion as the basis to kill another human being. Please spare me the “it’s complex” nonsense. That’s the problem with zealots – it’s always complex.

 

I might have a “total lack of understanding” for our brand of Jesus, but I do understand the religion as a whole. Your little nuances of it don’t make you any more right than the 30,000 other brands of Jesus we can pick from.

 

The only thing I “worry” about is people who would kill for their god under any circumstances ...

[Ssel]

The reality of faith - what an oxymoron - but hey, if it floats your boat ...

Typically, you ignore what was said and replace it with what you want others to believe.

 

I didn't say "reality of faith", but more like "faith in Reality"

 

And also, typically, you ask a question that can lead to suspicion and then don't reveal that your answer to the question would be even worse. Again, simply so you can attempt to make others believe what you wish.

 

You can't come up with a better answer (except for maybe the wording of it) than I gave you. But then do you have the courage to try?

 

The religion isn't about imagined voices in your head - never was. If you're literally hearing voices, then you're NOT attending to Reality, and thus are NOT doing as I said. What you're missing on a grand scale is that "voice from God" is metaphorical.

 

But metaphor is for intelligent people, so I can understand why you're confused.

[Ssel]

You are derailing SSel and once AGAIN, trying to turn the tables of a topic towards yourself.

I am doing no more than defending my rationale against his smartass replies.

Why not start your own thread titled "Reality the way "I" SSel see it" since this is ALWAYS what you do no matter WHAT the topic.

That only becomes the direction because I have reasons for what I believe, not merely black or white statements of faith. This requires exchange and discussion. But then why would I assume that discussion was the intent of a discussion topic.

Anyone that would kill another person for their god or even their version of it is wrong.

So under what circumstances would YOU kill another person? I seriously doubt that it would be more rational than mine.

 

But remember what my understanding of God is. If you're arguing against me, then you're arguing that people should ignore reality and follow something unreal so as to make their decisions.

[thunderbolt]

So under what circumstances would YOU kill another person? I seriously doubt that it would be more rational than mine.

Ssel

 

You are a con artist with words. You twist them as you go along to justify your own “rationalizations” for whatever it is you believe in. I honestly don’t know (or care) what your trip is, I simply asked a question and spelled out the hypothesis around it. There is nothing complex about the question – the complexity only exists in your mind.

 

The point was not IF someone else would or would not kill. My question was framed TO CHRISTIANS and NOT in the sense of “would you kill when another person threatens to kill you” or whatever scenario you can fathom. The question was CLEARLY about hearing God's voice (regardless of how, what, where or when) telling you to kill another person because they refuse to bow to Jesus as Lord. Killing them because they refuse his lordship. Get it?

 

You answered YES to the question. Thanks, so noted!

[Open_Minded]

Let's say things get really dire and your precious faith is slowly being dismantled from all corners of our "morally going down the toilet" society as the religious right is telling us every single day. Let's further assume that there is no sign of Jesus' return on the horizon to come and "judge" these godless heathens, and then one day, deep in your prayer closet, you hear Jesus' "still small" voice commanding you:

 

Kill all the infidels who oppose me as their lord and king.

 

Would you obey this command, and if not, why not?

 

What's scary about this scenario is that it could happen. As archealogy uncovers more and more and literalism moves onto the shelves with mythology, this could happen. Some people will not be able to let go.... and I have news for you. They won't go after the ex-Christians (or people of other faith traditions) alone, they will also come after Christians who DO NOT READ the Bible literally. They will go after anyone and everyone who does not read the version of the Bible they read, and who does not interpret it exactly the way they do. And all it will take is a few to harm the many.

 

Very sad, the truth must march on, and those who live in fear of the truth will use violence to slow the march....

[Ssel]

They will go after anyone and everyone who does not read the version of the Bible they read, and who does not interpret it exactly the way they do. And all it will take is a few to harm the many.

 

Very sad, the truth must march on, and those who live in fear of the truth will use violence to slow the march....

With THIS, I absolutely agree. The others would do the same, the Muslims, the Jews, the new church of science. A possible exception might be, MIGHT be, the Buddhists.

 

But how do you find those very few who would not do the same? So far, I have seen that every gathering is basically the same, all faith in things that they have accepted from others as being the real truth and when they get scared, they start getting mean and stupid.

[Amethyst]

What's scary about this scenario is that it could happen. As archealogy uncovers more and more and literalism moves onto the shelves with mythology, this could happen. Some people will not be able to let go.... and I have news for you. They won't go after the ex-Christians (or people of other faith traditions) alone, they will also come after Christians who DO NOT READ the Bible literally. They will go after anyone and everyone who does not read the version of the Bible they read, and who does not interpret it exactly the way they do. And all it will take is a few to harm the many.

 

Very sad, the truth must march on, and those who live in fear of the truth will use violence to slow the march....

 

Yes, history tends to repeat itself and we have seen this kind of thing happen before. So I wouldn't be surprised if it happened again.

[Ouroboros]

...

Your displaying a total lack of understanding of the religion. - not surprized.

 

 

Ssel, I strongly recommend that you tone down your arrogance and attitude of superiority a few notches. It's accepted in the Lion's Den, but you're in the Colosseum now, where this is not tolerated, neither is sidetracking the issue or dancing around the bush and pointing to the hills.

 

First of all you have to understand the purpose of this site. It is not a site to figure out the truth or finding the ultimate answer to the big question. This site has one purpose in mind: to support and encourage the people that recently have lost their faith in Christianity. If for whatever reasons you would frustrate, irritate or upset the members that needs this support, you are not contributing to this site.

 

So again, take the diatribe in another section, but not in the Colosseum.

[Jose]

How off your rocker would you have to be to think that anything you hear in you head is automatically the Voice of God™?

 

Can't Satan make his voice sound beatific and holy?

 

Obviously I'm no longer a Christian, but I can clearly remember thinking about this topic previously as a believer and I had decided that if God ever spoke to me, I would do anything he asked and take great pleasure in going to jail to be executed as a martyr.

 

I'm kind of egotistical though, so I always believed that God had "chosen" me to do his work.

 

I wasn't a very humble Christian. You guys would have hated me.

[Alice]

How off your rocker would you have to be to think that anything you hear in you head is automatically the Voice of God?

 

Can't Satan make his voice sound beatific and holy?

 

Obviously I'm no longer a Christian, but I can clearly remember thinking about this topic previously as a believer and I had decided that if God ever spoke to me, I would do anything he asked and take great pleasure in going to jail to be executed as a martyr.

 

I'm kind of egotistical though, so I always believed that God had "chosen" me to do his work.

 

I wasn't a very humble Christian. You guys would have hated me.

 

I'm assuming from what you've written, that the answer to your question 'how off your rocker would you have to be' - is 'just as far as Jose once was'. Is that what you meant?

 

and I'm wanting to imply here that 'you weren't off your rocker', so the scarey thing is - that people who are not apparently mad - are able to persaude themselves that it would be OK to respond to a voice in their head.

 

Or in making that assertion were you fairly sure that you would never hear a voice - and could therefore make this statement in comfort?...

[Jose]

I'm assuming from what you've written, that the answer to your question 'how off your rocker would you have to be' - is 'just as far as Jose once was'. Is that what you meant?

 

and I'm wanting to imply here that 'you weren't off your rocker', so the scarey thing is - that people who are not apparently mad - are able to persaude themselves that it would be OK to respond to a voice in their head.

 

Or in making that assertion were you fairly sure that you would never hear a voice - and could therefore make this statement in comfort?...

 

I was definitely off my rocker, imply away.

 

I thought that by being excommunicated from the Catholic Church and thereby seeking God in other ways... specifically by joining a non-denominational fundamentalist church, I would then set myself up to really "explore God's plan" for me, which may have included smiting nonbelievers with my... er, I mean God's furious wrath and vengeance if I were lucky.

 

I thought that by enduring the trials and tribulations I had endured, God was testing me to make sure I wouldn't crack under the pressure of this horrid sink of evil that is the world and I'd be able to do whatever he needed me to.

 

I think that in order to be that egocentric, you have to be a little .

[SkepticOfBible]

 

Yes, history tends to repeat itself and we have seen this kind of thing happen before. So I wouldn't be surprised if it happened again.

 

And it has. Appatently Bush thought he heard a voice from God to attack Iraq.

 

http://www.patridiots.com/000552.html

[Open_Minded]

 

Yes, history tends to repeat itself and we have seen this kind of thing happen before. So I wouldn't be surprised if it happened again.

 

And it has. Appatently Bush thought he heard a voice from God to attack Iraq.

 

http://www.patridiots.com/000552.html

 

How right you are :angry:

 

Woe to all of us

[Lycorth]

At the end of the session, Bush reportedly told the group, “I trust God speaks through me. Without that, I couldn’t do my job.’’

 

Pope George Bush I?

[thunderbolt]

It seems that all the theists have left the building (with Elvis).