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Goodbye Jesus

9 Years A Minister, Now An Atheist


Material_Miser_Joe

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Thank you all for the warm welcome!

 

The de-conversion story on my website is the very condensed version, and without the specific highlights of the story. My book, so far, has 76 typed, single-spaced pages with the full de-conversion story alone.

 

Quite a lot happened that I hope to eventually share. So many dark secrets, so many dirty jokes and atrocious conduct by "men of God", so many human frailties and weaknesses, so much dirty laundry from God's precious elect, and psychological damage done to unsuspecting victims -- all in the name of serving a sky spirit!!

 

But it'll all come out in the wash, as they say!

 

(JH)

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Aaah.

 

Doesn't sound to me like you were ever a true christian.

 

Just kidding, dude. Welcome to our little haven of escapees.

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Aaah.

 

Doesn't sound to me like you were ever a true christian.

 

Just kidding, dude. Welcome to our little haven of escapees.

 

:funny:

 

As you can imagine, I get that quite often.

 

Isn't it funny how this objection never surfaces before one defects, but only after? I was God's gift to the church and everyone was dying to hear what I had to say as a believer, but now all of the sudden, I'm a shunned, unbelieving devil who never had it right to begin with? Strange.

 

(JH)

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Isn't it funny how this objection never surfaces before one defects, but only after? I was God's gift to the church and everyone was dying to hear what I had to say as a believer, but now all of the sudden, I'm a shunned, unbelieving devil who never had it right to begin with? Strange.

 

Isn't it strange too that they don't see they might be committing the "unforgivable sin", since if God did exist, and the Holy Sprocket did exist, there is a chance, a small chance that just one single thing you did was by the Holy Sprocket, and now they claim you did it by your own power (or maybe by the power from the Devil), which means they have a huge chance of offending the Holy Sprocket and claiming his works were by the Devil. And Jesus would never forgive such a person... what a shame... they all going to join us in Hell, and I was hoping I could get away from them... :HaHa:

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Even after a nasty divorce, I find that the business was a good move. I doubt I'll leave it any time soon (unless of course I win the big L :lol: )

 

(JH)

 

The Big Lesbian? :scratch:

 

Hi there Joe, you may ignore me, I'm sort of the class clown........

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Even after a nasty divorce, I find that the business was a good move. I doubt I'll leave it any time soon (unless of course I win the big L :lol: )

 

(JH)

 

The Big Lesbian? :scratch:

 

Hi there Joe, you may ignore me, I'm sort of the class clown........

 

The big lottery, I meant. Should have made that clear.

 

(JH)

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I am wondering what you were taught about getting tithes when you were in seminary school and how you felt about asking for them. I can't believe that I am smarter than every pastor out there, so how is it that every denomination has this one thing in common and it is one of the most untouchable doctrines in the church, yet it takes very little common sense to debunk?

 

The Churches of Christ's stance on that is that the tithe was part of what ended at the cross, along with the rest of the Mosaic Law. "Give as you have been prospered" became the new lingo...

 

"But this I say, He which soweth sparingly shall reap also sparingly; and he which soweth bountifully shall reap also bountifully. Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver. And God is able to make all grace abound toward you; that ye, always having all sufficiency in all things, may abound to every good work:" (2 Cor. 9:6-8)

 

Though some (if not many) modern CoCs are going to the "you should tithe or at least set up a monthly deduction with your bank account to keep the work of God going", sort of thinking. The denominational world contends that the OT examples of tithing are intended when Paul says to give as we have been prospered, just as the Israelites were commanded to donate of a willing heart but were expected to tithe a certain amount (Exodus 25:1-3), but this is a rather strained position to defend. For one, that was for donations to the building of the Tabernacle, and two, we just have no NT example, command, or implication by which to bind that one OT precept on men (even if we assume the bible to be worth following).

 

Amazingly, even God needs earthly money, even though he could miraculously furnish all needs.

 

(JH)

 

Isn't it funny how this objection never surfaces before one defects, but only after? I was God's gift to the church and everyone was dying to hear what I had to say as a believer, but now all of the sudden, I'm a shunned, unbelieving devil who never had it right to begin with? Strange.

 

Isn't it strange too that they don't see they might be committing the "unforgivable sin", since if God did exist, and the Holy Sprocket did exist, there is a chance, a small chance that just one single thing you did was by the Holy Sprocket, and now they claim you did it by your own power (or maybe by the power from the Devil), which means they have a huge chance of offending the Holy Sprocket and claiming his works were by the Devil. And Jesus would never forgive such a person... what a shame... they all going to join us in Hell, and I was hoping I could get away from them... :HaHa:

 

VERY good point!

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Amazingly, even God needs earthly money, even though he could miraculously furnish all needs.

 

I've found that to be the source of a disagreeable odor, also.

Mostly, though, what I hate about churches is how common it is for people within them to feel isolated and alone. For instance, if it is running properly, in my opinion, it should be relatively unheard of for a congregation member to have a drug or drinking problem, a marital problem, attempted suicide, or any other kind of problem that anyone can help another with, without each member at least feeling free to reach out and ask someone there for some kind of assistance. Anyone who works where I do can do that, for christs sake! But, most christians I know would not expect that out of their church, or contribute to that atmospnere. Where the hell are all the good samaritans and others of compassion? Like I've written here before, I've found tighter-knit and better-functioning, more inter-dependent communities in motorcycle clubs and jail cell-blocks. Anyway, did you ever wonder about that, and why do you think that is so common in these institutions that claim to be the inspirational source for humane values in our society?

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Amazingly, even God needs earthly money, even though he could miraculously furnish all needs.

 

I've found that to be the source of a disagreeable odor, also.

Mostly, though, what I hate about churches is how common it is for people within them to feel isolated and alone. For instance, if it is running properly, in my opinion, it should be relatively unheard of for a congregation member to have a drug or drinking problem, a marital problem, attempted suicide, or any other kind of problem that anyone can help another with, without each member at least feeling free to reach out and ask someone there for some kind of assistance. Anyone who works where I do can do that, for christs sake! But, most christians I know would not expect that out of their church, or contribute to that atmospnere. Where the hell are all the good samaritans and others of compassion? Like I've written here before, I've found tighter-knit and better-functioning, more inter-dependent communities in motorcycle clubs and jail cell-blocks. Anyway, did you ever wonder about that, and why do you think that is so common in these institutions that claim to be the inspirational source for humane values in our society?

I think that when you have these "revivals", where new movements rise up, like the Jesus movement in the 60-70s (IIRC), everyone have a strong bond to the group and to each other. Everyone help each other out in difficult times, and everyone cares! Then it eventually become an institution, and the tight-knitted groups is gone, it dies, and the revival become a church.

 

This revival thing is what makes the followers believe they do have something. The emotions and success during that first time makes them think it must be supernatural, while it in reality is the power of the human mind when we gather behind a common cause we strongly believe in.

 

But unfortunately it's always so short lived, and the church structure that takes over always kills it, and what you get in the congregation is cliques of elitists, narcissists and the ones that fall behind and feel guilty all the time.

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Welcome MMJ!

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Welcome Joe.

 

I was checking our your site, and found this in one of the sites you linked to. This is really warped, I guess they believe babies go to hell?

 

A special message from David Walters

 

Some people think that if kids die when they are young, they will go to heaven. They believe this, because they think kids are innocent, but they are wrong. We know that God loves kids, (the first thing He told Adam and Eve to do was to have kids.) God wanted kids to be like Him, but Adam and Eve, our great, great, great, great, etc. etc. grandparents messed up and so a lot of kids have turned up behaving more like the devil, than God.

 

 

So Listen Kids

 

You don't go to heaven because your cute. You don't go to heaven because your a kid. You only go to heaven if you have had you're sins washed in the blood of Jesus and you have made Him your Lord and Savior.

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Thanks, Han.

 

And Joe, maybe it's not such an irony that "security" is the field which at least two former men of the cloth entered...

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And this goes back to the issue of what will happen to people that never heard the gospel.

 

A friend of mine (agnostic), her brother got Jesus and became really fundy. He told her about Jestus, and she asked him about this problem. And he said that people that never heard the gospel will be treated differently by God at judgment day and will somehow get a different chance. And she asked me what to tell him.

 

I told her to tell him that he was a jerk, because if he had never told her about Jerkus, she would have gotten a better deal at judgment day, but now because he did tell her, now she's guarranteed to go to hell. At least before, she had a fair chance, now she's screwed. "Thank you f**ng evangelist! You gave me one way ticket to Hell!!!"

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Material Miser Joe,

 

Thanks so much for posting here at ExC, you have already proven to be a valuable asset. This morning I visited your site and it's both educational and inspirational. I'm still finding it hard to call myself an atheist but after reading your section on "Why Atheism", I can appreciate how you have come to that conclusion. What is holding me back, I don't know. The more I think about it though, even if there were a god, I should think that I'm deserving of an audible knowledge of it just like those of ancient times. If god could take time out to let them know, why not me?

 

You're on the right track, SerenityNow. It takes time and adjustment to de-convert. Don't expect it to feel natural all of the sudden. Little by little, you detach from the god myth and realize that you not only don't need these ghosts to direct you, but with the ways they fail to come through for you, you are ALREADY not counting on them, and just don't realize it. Time helps the thinker realize that he/she was on their own all the time, and when they realize this, then they can appreciate the independence that comes from being godless. Confidence will come and go in stages, and you'll drive yourself crazy trying to rethink what you know you've already thought through, but give it time.

 

Even after I defected from the ministry and had decided to renounce theism, I still felt out of place for a short while. I avoided calling myself an atheist for atleast a month or two after my resignation (keep in mind the de-conversion process had been at work in me 4 years earlier). My cousin (another atheist) actually took me out for some burgers and a beer, at which time I made my big verbal atheist breakthrough. After eating, I remember actually standing up and almost shouting, "I'm a god damned atheist!", after which time, my cousin and I made our first toas..."death to the gods". May sound silly, but sometimes a self "pep talk" can break the psychological ice and free us from our own hang-ups. I had been an atheist all that time, but just saying it out loud made a lot of difference.

 

This may or may not help, but just give it time! The demons of the past WILL eventually vanish for good!

 

And you're right, there is not ONE single logical reason why God would speak to prophets and patriarchs of ages past, and then completely shut up today and speak through an obscure book! If he's real, he'll talk to us and alleviate our doubts, but he hasn't. Conveniently (for the theists), god has laryngitus today!

 

(JH)

 

Welcome Joe.

 

I was checking our your site, and found this in one of the sites you linked to. This is really warped, I guess they believe babies go to hell?

 

A special message from David Walters

 

Some people think that if kids die when they are young, they will go to heaven. They believe this, because they think kids are innocent, but they are wrong. We know that God loves kids, (the first thing He told Adam and Eve to do was to have kids.) God wanted kids to be like Him, but Adam and Eve, our great, great, great, great, etc. etc. grandparents messed up and so a lot of kids have turned up behaving more like the devil, than God.

 

 

So Listen Kids

 

You don't go to heaven because your cute. You don't go to heaven because your a kid. You only go to heaven if you have had you're sins washed in the blood of Jesus and you have made Him your Lord and Savior.

 

Even among the already-extreme variations of the Christian cult, some exist (like these) which are yet MORE radical and detrimental to sanity!

 

So sad!

 

(JH)

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Amazingly, even God needs earthly money, even though he could miraculously furnish all needs.

 

I've found that to be the source of a disagreeable odor, also.

Mostly, though, what I hate about churches is how common it is for people within them to feel isolated and alone. For instance, if it is running properly, in my opinion, it should be relatively unheard of for a congregation member to have a drug or drinking problem, a marital problem, attempted suicide, or any other kind of problem that anyone can help another with, without each member at least feeling free to reach out and ask someone there for some kind of assistance. Anyone who works where I do can do that, for christs sake! But, most christians I know would not expect that out of their church, or contribute to that atmospnere. Where the hell are all the good samaritans and others of compassion? Like I've written here before, I've found tighter-knit and better-functioning, more inter-dependent communities in motorcycle clubs and jail cell-blocks. Anyway, did you ever wonder about that, and why do you think that is so common in these institutions that claim to be the inspirational source for humane values in our society?

 

Well, I started to notice as a minister that the reason church never "did it" for some was because this diverse and evolving culture had created "churches" of a different kind (positive social outlets), for those tattered, persecuted souls who didn't fit in with the deluded religions. The reason religion remained around unto today is because it still (sadly) serves to function as a cohesive powerhouse of action and community. Even if for the wrong causes, it unites people and manages to amass strength, but as the times are changing, and more and more people (like us) are able to identify with other social outlets, knowledge is getting out enough to realize what the average uneducated churchgoer hasn't a clue of -- that no religion or deity has a monopoly on truth or morals or even social guidance. Slowly, the world is realizing this, even in mentally deplorable "Bible belt" towns and cities. "Good" with the gods is getting bypassed because more and more people realize they can just go straight for the morals and leave the superstition behind. They are realizing that it isn't necessary to babble at the sky to be "blessed" to encourage a sick companion, to donate money or food when needed, or to help a sad friend in the grip of depression. The old judgmental "Church" is being replaced with the new "church," where everyone can "bless" their fellow man without the foolish constraints of ignorance.

 

(JH)

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The old judgmental "Church" is being replaced with the new "church," where everyone can "bless" their fellow man without the foolish constraints of ignorance.

 

Yea, verily. Well put, and thank you for the lengthy reply. It did not address what I was essentially asking, though. And that is why and how can there be this huge "blind spot" in the behaviors of congregations, among their members. For instance, if I was in the republican party, and went to rallies and spoke glowingly of the demoratic party platform, people would immediately call into question the legitamacy of my presense there or membership in the republican party. If I joined a health club, and ate twinkies and drank beer between reps on weight machines, people would equally debate my credentials as a serious person. If I came here and spoke of the glories of jee-zus, it wouldn't be long before I would also be called to task. So, how is it that sermons can be given based on the teachings of someone humble enough to hang around societies outcasts and wash his worshippers feet, and only seem to inspire people to stratify their group hierarchies in the most pretentious and baseless manners, that serve no one in the best ways possible? Of course, I think the answers are in the "secondary drives" satisfied just by showing up ; the sustaining in belief in being good and righteous and guaranteed an afterlife by merely showing up and giving lip-service to beliefs. Still, though, in so many other, and indeed in virtually all other groupings of people united together for a common cause, we find more rational humanity and mutual, beneficial assistance between members than in churches. Why the conspicuous discrepancy there?

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I'm still finding it hard to call myself an atheist

 

I lean towards defning myself as an athest, but am I an Atheist or an Agnostic? As it stands now I really don't care. Everyone defines the two terms differently so I no longer sweat it. If someone asks me whether I am an atheist or an agnostic, I tell them this. "It depends on how you define it. If you want, ask me some questions and then you can determine for yourself." It doesn't bother me in the least what term the questioner decides on.

 

I have had people tell me I am still a Christian regardless of my current beliefs. I told them, "fine." I am comfortable enough in my convictions to not be concerned about how I am defined by others.

 

Just my $0.02

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Everyone defines the two terms differently so I no longer sweat it

 

You made me think of mentioning what I find is an annoying tendency in many people, during heated discussions of any passionately held opinions, to interpret whatever terms the person they disagree with are using by what they believe to be dictionary definitions. I've even seen people stop and look up definitions in dictionarys during conversations. This many do instead of and in spite of asking that person they are speaking with to clarify what they said. That way they speak in a manner that is about you, in a conversation with you, rather than in a manner that is directly to you that makes points of discussion, and that way they avoid a feeling of confrontation that they may not have confidence in handling well. I was thinking that might be one way they try to slip out of a reasoned discussion with you. I like to call them on it by saying "...don't talk about what I said, talk to me about (fill in topic) because I'm right here. If you want to know what I mean, ask me don't tell me...". That pins them down pretty good. They have to have a substantial point to get past you then, or just go crazy with gibberish. One or the other, and either way you win.

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Thanks Charley, you did a better job of trying to convey what I meant then I did. Words are just vocalized symbols we use to communicate our thoughts. It is an imperfect system prone to error. The important thing is that we come to understand the other person’s mind and this can take some time. Forcing that understanding into dictionary defined terms is possible, but in my opinion is not critical. :shrug:

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The old judgmental "Church" is being replaced with the new "church," where everyone can "bless" their fellow man without the foolish constraints of ignorance.

Still, though, in so many other, and indeed in virtually all other groupings of people united together for a common cause, we find more rational humanity and mutual, beneficial assistance between members than in churches. Why the conspicuous discrepancy there?

 

I see. I did seem to miss your question. This probably has several answers, at least one of which is the in-group/out-group morality of religious systems and followings themselves. When a person identifies with a cult, the person develops an identity in that group and takes on the social ideals of that group. These lean towards each other and against their enemies or "competition", as we might call it. Brand X, though very noble, is still not as good as Brand Y! The result is reduced compassion.

 

As an example of this in-group/out-group esteem, take Deut 14:21...

 

"You belong to the LORD your God, so if you happen to find a dead animal, don't eat its meat. You may give it to foreigners who live in your town or sell it to foreigners who are visiting your town."

 

One less infidel, one more Jew. You are special, they are not. It's ok if the infidel eats bad meat, but not you. Even in the NT, there is still condescension...

 

"But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking." (Matt 6:7)

 

"Not in the lust of concupiscence, even as the Gentiles which know not God." (I Thess 4:5)

 

Even with "love your enemies" and the humanitarian teachings of Jesus, the segregation of holiness vs. unholiness works against common sense and the natural will to do good...

 

"To make a difference between the unclean and the clean, and between the beast that may be eaten and the beast that may not be eaten." (Lev 11:47)

 

"Thou hast delivered me from the strivings of the people; and thou hast made me the head of the heathen: a people whom I have not known shall serve me." (Psalm 18:43)

 

Then their is the all-too-human tendency to draw close to some and away from others on a personal level. The result is that this robs religion of what little compassion it did manage to offer, whereas freethinkers are not weighed down with doctrinal hang-ups. They view all people on a level surface (generally), so everyone can be appreciated and benefit from each other. What is also interesting is that this can be seen and tested fairly well by comparing the compassion levels from the various churches -- the stricter, more rigid the dogma, the more adulterated the views on charity, which is why ultra-lib groups, like Episcopalian and Bahais and others, are becoming very well known for being community oriented and charitable. There is something about fooling with the nuts and bolts of scriptural mechanics and symantics that takes the focus completely off of good works and makes the whole damn organization as useless as an air conditioner in Barrow, Alaska.

 

Religion just cannot seem to offer a good product without the bad-breathed, annoying salesman to go along with it! It's sort of like picking up one clotheshanger from a pile of them--the useless ones always get nabbed up with the one you need, just like the baggage of religion.

 

(JH)

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"Not in the lust of concupiscence, even as the Gentiles which know not God." (I Thess 4:5)

This is an interesting verse. Doesn't it contradict this verse?

Rom 1:19-20 LITV because the thing known of God is clearly known within them, for God revealed it to them. (20) For the unseen things of Him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things made, both His eternal power and Godhead, for them to be without excuse.

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There is something about fooling with the nuts and bolts of scriptural mechanics and symantics that takes the focus completely off of good works and makes the whole damn organization as useless as an air conditioner in Barrow, Alaska.

 

I see your point. In at least the stricter and more rigid groups, it seems that the perspective of exclusivity that they view the world outside their groupings from, is also backfiring and turning against each member within the groups, causing this isolation among members.

 

You have helped me connect a few dots here and remember that the only way I have seen this harsh stratification avoided among conservative christians was with the Quakers, who are aware of this potential problem and make efforts to prevent it from developing by keeping their groupings small. Consequently, Quakers I have known have described their "meeting" groups as people that help each other as needed in personal and material ways. On the one hand, I label them conservative because of their stoic personal habits and lifestyle. But they also embraced people outside of their group, unlike many conservative and rigid churches. When I knew them back in the '80's they did a lot to help people escape El Salvador and enter into the U.S., to avoid persecution and execution there. That was very dangerous for the Quakers and I allways admired their courage and integrity for "walking the talk" of helping people.

 

Yes, there is more than one cause. Size seems to play a role in this internal stratification occuring on its own, as noted in the differences between the quakers and larger groups. But small groups can also be very srtaified and internally rigid, especially when their view of the profane outside world is equally so, as you have pointed out.. That is evidencd by any one of the small cults over the years that evolved into sociopathically violent groups. (S.L.A.. etc.)

 

Thanks again.

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Hello again Joe,

 

I've been spending some time looking your site over today and just have to comment. It is really well thought out and put together. You remind me very much of Dan Barker. Again, I do look forward to your participation on this site. Hopefully you will find the time.

 

Best regards

 

Dan is a good guy. I have a chapter in his coming book on minister de-conversion stories.

 

(JH)

 

I am curious if you were involved with the Church of Christ that has also been called "the Boston Movement"? I was involved briefly with that group.

 

No, mine was the mainline conservative wing of the Cambell movement. However, I knew of several who came from the Boston Movement.

 

(JH)

 

Is this the Restoration Movement? Independent Christian Church? Oh Lordy... I know that "non-denom" denomination wel... ;) They are baptism freaks.

 

That is where my husband and I are from (for him, his entire life, and for me after I was convinced Catholicism was evil).

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I read your entire deconversion story on that site .

 

Its a story thats all to familiar . I personally think most advanced apologists are being dishonest with themselves on a lot of matters as well .

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