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Goodbye Jesus

"debates"


Minette

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Long story short; I'm an ex-Christian, the person I'm seeing is a Christian although extremely unorthodox. We tend to stay away from that field of conversation but sometimes things drift there. Ta-dah.

 

Earlier I was mentioning the trolls ex-christian.com gets; those who see the URL and take it as a challenge and feel the need to "spank the heathens" or "save the poor little darlings." I mentioned it in passing like "how bothersome" as opposed to trying to bait the other person into religious debate. From here onward, I will refer to the person I'm seeing as "Alex."

 

I said that we do have a few nice Christians on the site, but most who come, come to start a flame war or try to "save" us. Alex said that it's not Christianity's fault that they suck and that it's a case of a few bad apples ruining the bunch. That statement was too false for me to bear so I mentioned that this site is full of ex-Christians and few of the Christians we have met that knew we were ex-Christians were very nice and respectful to us about our beliefs or lack thereof. Alex replied that we probably haven't met enough Christians because we aren't Christians to which I pointed out that we are EX-Christians who grew up in churches literally SURROUNDED by Christians! Alex then claimed that we all probably had bad pastors who corrupted the masses and made them mean Christians. 

 

I pointed out that most of the people here were part of nice, normal churches full of nice, normal people and that problems arose when we began to question things and when we de-converted. I also pointed out that there are over 6 thousand people here from all over the world and it's very unlikely that we all had the same few churches and that if there are so many corrupt churches out there, there is a serious issue with the religion driving them. I used my old churches as an example; the pastors were nice and the people were pretty nice, but the doctrine made no sense to me and no one seemed to be able to answer my questions the way I needed them answered.

 

Alex got a bit upset with me and said that s(he) finds it hard to believe that out of all the Christians in the world, the people at ex-c were unable to find nice ones to which I pointed out that the ex-c definition of a nice Christian is likely different from  the Christian definition because here at ex-c we want Christians to treats us with respect, not try to convert us or make assumptions about us, not try to make things up in debates, and not try to argue things they don't understand whereas Christians see a good Christian as someone who follows what God commands. 

 

Here, things got a little wonky as Alex claimed I wasn't one to say what God commands because I'm not a believer. Irritated, I pointed out that I was born and raised in a Christian house; I read the bible, I went to church, I wend to bible school, I had Christian friends and family, etc. Unless I was given a different copy of the bible and went to fake churches, I know what the bible says. Alex then said that the bible was written by man so it's not really God's word (naw, really?) and people were just trained not to question it. I agree with this fully, but since Alex claims to be a Christian, I couldn't let that be. I pointed out that the bible is supposedly the word of God and is used as the basis of Christianity. If all Christians believe that the bible is a book written by some guy who thinks he knows what God thinks, the religion falls apart. 

 

Alex replied that Christianity was created to try to explain the universe and what happens after we die (which I also agree with) but I pointed out that if Christians really do see Christianity as a possible explanation, why do they all claim it to be the "one true religion" and try to convert others using the bible as proof? From there, we went in circles with Alex saying all religions think theirs is the only right one and that someone has to be wrong and me saying that no, not all religions think theirs in the only right one (I used Paganism as an example because many pagans blend religions and believe that there is no wrong religion) and Christianity is one of the few that commands its followers to go forth and convert others by preaching the "holy book" which claims all other religions are fake and you must join us or be tortured for all eternity. 

 

It ended when Alex said that s(he) has met some angry and violent pagans and then ran off saying s(he) had to go. I must point out that I dabble in Buddhism and a type of Paganism and Alex knows this so it's pretty clear s(he) was trying to bridge Pagans and Christians to try to make me think "well by golly you're right! Most Christians are awesome and honest and knowledgeable and I just met a few bad ones is all! I should give them another chance!" 

 

Now I'm all irritated and my head hurts from banging it against a wall.

 

Edited for clarification purposes :)

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Ouch. Sounds like Alex is a bit of a chameleon. Such "believers" irritated the hell out of me when I was a Christian. On the one hand, there is a very wide spectrum of belief covered by the term Christian because people apply it to whatever beliefs they personally hold. On the other hand, there is a smaller part of that spectrum that is considered orthodox (not Orthodox) Christianity that regards the Bible as the word of god and who actually try to hold to those teachings despite their differences of opinion and interpretation.

 

So when you try to argue with Alex as though (s)he comes from your own orthodox background, it probably won't work well because (s)he has a purposefully vague belief system that uses Christian terms and ideas without actually being what most would term Christian.

 

By the way, most of us aren't in any shortage of "nice" Christians. I know several families of absolutely wonderful believers. That isn't what separates us. After 30+ years of hardcore belief and Bible study, I found that the entire religion wasn't true or real. When I backed away and honestly questioned without making excuses for god, and then investigated the nature of the god of the Bible and the alleged prophesies for the Messiah, it all fell apart pretty quickly. I came here after searching online for "ex-christian" and after reading several testimonies, including those from ex-pastors, I digested the information and then made my first posting here declaring my own de-conversion. That was about 6 years ago.

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Long story short; I'm an ex-Christian, the person I'm seeing is a Christian although extremely unorthodox. We tend to stay away from that field of conversation but sometimes things drift there. Ta-dah.

 

Earlier I was mentioning the trolls ex-christian.com gets; those who see the URL and take it as a challenge and feel the need to "spank the heathens" or "save the poor little darlings." I mentioned it in passing like "how bothersome" as opposed to trying to bait the other person into religious debate. From here onward, I will refer to the person I'm seeing as "Alex."

 

I said that we do have a few nice Christians on the site, but most who come, come to start a flame war or try to "save" us. Alex said that it's not Christianity's fault that they suck and that it's a case of a few bad apples ruining the bunch. That statement was too false for me to bear so I mentioned that this site is full of ex-Christians and very few of us have met Christians who were nice and respectful to us. Alex replied that we probably haven't met enough Christians because we aren't Christians to which I pointed out that we are EX-Christians who grew up in churches literally SURROUNDED by Christians! Alex then claimed that we all probably had bad pastors who corrupted the masses and made them mean Christians. 

 

I pointed out that most of the people here were part of nice, normal churches full of nice, normal people and that problems arose when we began to question things and when we de-converted. I also pointed out that there are over 6 thousand people here from all over the world and it's very unlikely that we all had the same few churches and that if there are so many corrupt churches out there, there is a serious issue with the religion driving them. I used my old churches as an example; the pastors were nice and the people were pretty nice, but the doctrine made no sense to me and no one seemed to be able to answer my questions the way I needed them answered.

 

Alex got a bit upset with me and said that s(he) finds it hard to believe that out of all the Christians in the world, the people at ex-c were unable to find nice ones to which I pointed out that the ex-c definition of a nice Christian is likely different from  the Christian definition because here at ex-c we want Christians to treats us with respect, not try to convert us or make assumptions about us, not try to make things up in debates, and not try to argue things they don't understand whereas Christians see a good Christian as someone who follows what God commands. 

 

Here, things got a little wonky as Alex claimed I wasn't one to say what God commands because I'm not a believer. Irritated, I pointed out that I was born and raised in a Christian house; I read the bible, I went to church, I wend to bible school, I had Christian friends and family, etc. Unless I was given a different copy of the bible and went to fake churches, I know what the bible says. Alex then said that the bible was written by man so it's not really God's word (naw, really?) and people were just trained not to question it. I agree with this fully, but since Alex claims to be a Christian, I couldn't let that be. I pointed out that the bible is supposedly the word of God and is used as the basis of Christianity. If all Christians believe that the bible is a book written by some guy who thinks he knows what God thinks, the religion falls apart. 

 

Alex replied that Christianity was created to try to explain the universe and what happens after we die (which I also agree with) but I pointed out that if Christians really do see Christianity as a possible explanation, why do they all claim it to be the "one true religion" and try to convert others using the bible as proof? From there, we went in circles with Alex saying all religions think theirs is the only right one and that someone has to be wrong and me saying that no, not all religions think theirs in the only right one (I used Paganism as an example because many pagans blend religions and believe that there is no wrong religion) and Christianity is one of the few that commands its followers to go forth and convert others by preaching the "holy book" which claims all other religions are fake and you must join us or be tortured for all eternity. 

 

It ended when Alex said that s(he) has met some angry and violent pagans and then ran off saying s(he) had to go. I must point out that I dabble in Buddhism and a type of Paganism and Alex knows this so it's pretty clear s(he) was trying to bridge Pagans and Christians to try to make me think "well by golly you're right! Most Christians are awesome and honest and knowledgeable and I just met a few bad ones is all! I should give them another chance!" 

 

Now I'm all irritated and my head hurts from banging it against a wall.

 

Yeah, I think pagans in general believe a myriad of different things, worship myriad different gods/goddesses but aren't rabidly trying to convert anyone to their belief system. Pagans roll their own beliefs.

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Be careful.  When my first wife and I met I was a very non-religious person, though still nominally a christian, much like this Alex fellow.  About two years after she and I married, I swung back to my hardcore fundamenalist roots.  It destroyed the marriage; and I regret it to this day.

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Alex likes the 'no true Scotsman' fallacy. 

 

Run before you end up getting married to someone who is going give you tons of grief would be my advice. 

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By the way, most of us aren't in any shortage of "nice" Christians. I know several families of absolutely wonderful believers. That isn't what separates us. 

 

Whups! Sorry about that, I screwed up the phrasing there. I was trying to say that many of the Christians we meet aren't so nice and respectful after they learn that we are ex-Christians. That should have read something closer to, "few of the Christians we have met were very nice and respectful to us about our beliefs or lack thereof." That's what I get for typing up and proofing a post on my tiny smartphone screen while irritated. I'll have to go back and fix that. I don't know how I butchered that paragraph so badly.

 

Yeah, I think pagans in general believe a myriad of different things, worship myriad different gods/goddesses but aren't rabidly trying to convert anyone to their belief system. Pagans roll their own beliefs.

 

 

Exactly, thus why I get along better with Pagans and most other non-Christian believers. They're like, "yeah I worship Odin, Zeus, Bast, Krishna, Gaia and believe X, Y, Z; You disagree? That's cool. Hey wanna get a pizza?" Christians are usually, "yeah I worship Jesus the one true god and believe in the bible, heaven, and hell; you disagree? That's awful! Let me try to save you you poor, ignorant soul! Let me save you because I care!"

 

Be careful.  When my first wife and I met I was a very non-religious person, though still nominally a christian, much like this Alex fellow.  About two years after she and I married, I swung back to my hardcore fundamenalist roots.  It destroyed the marriage; and I regret it to this day.

 

Yikes, I'm sorry that happened to you :( I'll definitely keep this in mind for the future. Thank you for sharing that with me.

 

Alex likes the 'no true Scotsman' fallacy. 

 

Run before you end up getting married to someone who is going give you tons of grief would be my advice. 

 

Yep, that's what was making my eye twitch. We get along pretty well when we avoid talking about Christian type stuff but because of the times when we do, I'll likely not wind up marrying this person.

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Welcome to the real world.

 

Not quite the Matrix, but this is a pretty common experience with Christians. The details vary, some think we really believe but just deny it because it's obviously true, others claim we were never real believers, still others suggest that we simply weren't in the right church.

 

I've become ignostic. I refuse to discuss the existence of God until the term is clearly defined and a sizable majority can agree on what that definition is exactly. The idea that will ever actually happen is highly improbable.

 

My stance often annoys Christians of course, but I stick to it now and it works out pretty well. No amount of calling me a coward and telling me I'm just afraid I might be proven wrong will persuade me. I don't give enough of a shit to bother with it anymore.

 

I will say that even if there is such a thing as God, which I find pretty improbable even using the most vague of definitions, I absolutely without doubt find the idea of the Christian God absurd. I'd say the same thing about any specific God really.

 

As I see it, even if there is an all powerful creator of the universe, such a being would be so far beyond our understanding and we so far beneath it's notice that worshiping it would be pointless and there is no good reason to believe it cares if I think it's real or whether I curse at it or not. The idea that I'm important and significant enough to warrant punishment or reward in my death is equally insipid to me. In all honesty, I'd prefer to not be eternal. Even in the most wonderful of places, I see no reason to think that the basic psychology of simply being a human would not drive me insane and wishing for an end to my existence eventually.

 

Plus, you really should consider what sort of company you'd have in this so called 'paradise' if Christians are even partially correct about what qualifies one for admittance. Even if Hell was real, I'd prefer it. I'm not worried about fire as I won't have nerves anymore, and Heaven would actually be hotter than Hell anyway according to the information given in the Bible.

 

 

The temperature of heaven can be rather accurately computed. Our authority is the Bible, Isaiah 30:26 reads,

Thus, heaven receives from the moon as much radiation as the earth does from the sun, and in addition seven times seven (forty nine) times as much as the earth does from the sun, or fifty times in all. The light we receive from the moon is one ten-thousandth of the light we receive from the sun, so we can ignore that. With these data we can compute the temperature of heaven: The radiation falling on heaven will heat it to the point where the heat lost by radiation is just equal to the heat received by radiation. In other words, heaven loses fifty times as much heat as the earth by radiation. Using the Stefan-Boltzmann fourth power law for radiation (H/E)4 = 50

where E is the absolute temperature of the earth, 300°K (273+27). This gives H the absolute temperature of heaven, as 798° absolute (525°C).

The exact temperature of hell cannot be computed but it must be less than 444.6°C, the temperature at which brimstone or sulfur changes from a liquid to a gas. Revelations 21:8: But the fearful and unbelieving... shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone." A lake of molten brimstone [sulfur] means that its temperature must be at or below the boiling point, which is 444.6°C. (Above that point, it would be a vapor, not a lake.)

We have then, temperature of heaven, 525°C. Temperature of hell, less than 445°C. Therefore heaven is hotter than hell.

 

So, while I find the possibility of a God improbable, but very slightly possible, I see no reason to bother with discussing it nor any reason I should care that it exists if it does. I certainly see no good reason why it would care about my existence, much less my behavior. I am completely confident in my assessment that the Christian God is complete bunk and that I see no reason to believe that Hell would be a worse place to be than Heaven even if said Christian God did exist, which I can say with some confidence he does not.

 

Oh, and I've been dead twice and saw nothing to indicate any existence of any afterlife. So I've got that going for me as well.

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