Llwellyn Posted May 25, 2014 Share Posted May 25, 2014 I'm having a very empathic moment right now, and I'm, no exaggeration, shedding a tear thinking about the grief that Christians would have if they no longer had their faith, but only the memory of it. Christians love Jesus, the Trinity, and their soteriology of Justification by Faith. They love their narrative of Creation, Redemption, Incarnation and Resurrection. If, in a moment, they no longer had this, they would lose something extremely precious to them. Torn out of their hearts, there would be left a gaping wound. Not that I am saying anyone on this forum would wish to do such a thing to a Christian. But I definitely think it is worth remember that many Christians love their faith and it gives them joy and hope. The takeaway for me is that people should be allowed to keep their faith or nonfaith, and that proselytization (for or against) should be avoided to the greatest degree possible. We are all sensitive creatures and should take care to not stomp on each other's stories, dreams and beliefs. Psalm 137: "By the rivers of Babylon we sat and wept when we remembered Zion. There on the poplars we hung our harps." 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
♦ ficino ♦ Posted May 25, 2014 Share Posted May 25, 2014 When I realized that there was no way I could pray the Rosary anymore, I wept. Over the sink. A long time ago. But I know what you mean, L. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
♦ Fuego ♦ Posted May 25, 2014 Share Posted May 25, 2014 I agree to some extent. However, I see the incredible damage that Christianity and Judaism do to many millions of believers, the many laws we have that are based in a fake god and his will, the many billions of dollars spent annually on promoting the myth and its spokesmen, the willfully backwards science, the misogyny celebrated in the scriptures and promoted in churches, the vile concept that a blood-loving god needs his offspring to die violently to "forgive" us for being human, and I must take steps to unplug the faith in every way I can. I wrote a book, which I must edit again, and hope to publish in the next year or so. It is only one voice among many in an increasingly loud clamor, but I have to try. Many believers that I know, know that I am no longer a believer. Some will chat with me about it, but not for long. I don't push my views on them, but I am not shy about talking to them. It would be world-changing for any of them to deconvert, because they have a tight social circle, in which they once included me (and they still welcome me to weddings and such). But there is a clear divide between us now. If a believer were to confront me, I would be honest and do my best to free his or her mind. I find that stopping the mind virus of faith is a noble task, but typically they will have to start the encounter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pratt Posted May 25, 2014 Share Posted May 25, 2014 its not that bad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RogueScholar Posted May 25, 2014 Share Posted May 25, 2014 When I realized that there was no way I could pray the Rosary anymore, I wept. Over the sink. A long time ago. But I know what you mean, L. Same here. I wept and in a sense went through a period of mourning. Accepting mortality and ultimate responsibility for my actions, man that was a pretty rough ride. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellinas Posted May 25, 2014 Share Posted May 25, 2014 I have come to view evangelism of any creed offensive. Each must to his own - and I cannot dictate to anyone what they should or should not believe. I do not see that the same as talking to someone who wishes to discuss the issue of their (or my) beliefs. That does not mean I am trying to persuade them - just that I state why I do not agree. Thereafter, if they want us to nip down the pub for a pint, fine. If they want to flounce off offended, equally fine. And if they end up losing their faith - well, they were probably on that road anyway if they wanted such a discussion and it ended in that result, so I've actually just helped them get to where they needed to go. I just will not preach at those who do not want to hear, or assume that others are interested in my views without some good reason for that view. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cousin Ricky Posted May 26, 2014 Share Posted May 26, 2014 Psalm 137: "By the rivers of Babylon we sat and wept when we remembered Zion. There on the poplars we hung our harps." And then there's that highly non-empathic last verse of that psalm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tollo Posted May 26, 2014 Share Posted May 26, 2014 I never felt grief myself, but I'm not sure I was ever in board to the point of being happy about justification and all that - I thought the Calvinist doctrines were oppressive but that was just the way it was. So when I deconverted I was a bit pissed off at being lied to, but I didn't miss my faith, except maybe the idea of seeing all my old relatives and friends in heaven someday. On the other hand, some of the things I said about my deconversion to my sister actually led her to abandon the religion too and I feel weirdly guilty for that. She was very quick to trust me at my word that it was false. I don't really want anyone taking my word for it. And now I feel like she is in a tough place with my parents and all. I don't know. She doesn't seem to miss it, but I feel bad for some reason.... I think on principle atheism should be the most comforting belief system because it allows so much more wonder, honesty, and self-ownership but usually I find it means for most people my age: arguments, suffering through church, parents being invasive and controlling, loss of motivation... I don't really know though. For me it has made me a lot happier but I don't want to screw with anyone's life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cousin Ricky Posted May 26, 2014 Share Posted May 26, 2014 Imagine my surprise and horror, after starting my Buybull cover-to-cover project, upon discovering the source of this familiar song from my childhood. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cousin Ricky Posted May 26, 2014 Share Posted May 26, 2014 On the other hand, some of the things I said about my deconversion to my sister actually led her to abandon the religion too and I feel weirdly guilty for that. She was very quick to trust me at my word that it was false. I don't really want anyone taking my word for it. And now I feel like she is in a tough place with my parents and all. I don't know. She doesn't seem to miss it, but I feel bad for some reason.... How old is your sister? Have you talked to her about your concerns? Perhaps she had already been questioning, or perhaps she just trusted you enough to take her own hard look at Christianity. If not, you could just let her know that you're only human, and that she has to vet your conclusions like any other. It was up to her to make what she did of your comments, and she has to make her own decisions concerning her relationship with your parents. You have nothing to feel guilty about, and if she doesn't miss Christianity, there wouldn't appear to be a problem. I think on principle atheism should be the most comforting belief system because it allows so much more wonder, honesty, and self-ownership but usually I find it means for most people my age: arguments, suffering through church, parents being invasive and controlling, loss of motivation... I don't really know though. For me it has made me a lot happier but I don't want to screw with anyone's life. For some people, the idea that one will live forever in happiness and be reunited with their loved ones is the most comforting thought. For me, I saw it as a trade-off: exchanging a comforting but false belief in a desired afterlife for the disappointing but true realization that death is final. Losing the worry about burning in HELL forever was, of course, a big relief, but the realization of one's own mortality takes some getting used to. Not feeling guilty about sex is also a big advantage, although whether that outweighs not living forever is an individual thing. Of course, believing that one will live forever does not mean one will live forever, but this reality is irrelevant to the happiness of the believer. If your views are not hateful, it's hard to see how sharing them can screw with someone else's life. If their faith is so fragile that you could de-convert them in an instant, it's not really your fault. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amateur Posted May 26, 2014 Share Posted May 26, 2014 Having worked with very elderly, frail senior citizens for the past decade, some of them near death, I would say that some of them found true comfort in their faith and I would NEVER in any way take that away from somebody who's elderly, lost much in life (health, sight, hearing, death of a spouse or child or even grandchild, independence, basic bathing and bathroom abilities), and finds meaning in what is happening to them and what they feel is to come. Not all elderly have faith, with the majority of the residents and my clients we never discussed it. But those that did, I NEVER told them I wasn't a believer. I would NEVER out-and-out lie to them, if they asked if I went to church I'd answer, "I grew up in the Methodist church, then became Presbyterian when I married." True answer, that! If pressed about my current church (hours of being alone with an elderly, bedridden person gets people questioning things just to pass the time; they weren't being pushy, just making conversation past "where do you live?," "are you married" and "do you have kids?"), I'd answer, "With this job I need to work evenings and weekends, so haven't had time to attend church since I started." True answer! I would NEVER disrespect an elderly, near-death person's faith, or even poke at it by bringing up my atheism. One of my favorite clients, I had him at least the last ten months or so of working the job, we spent 5 hours a day, two days a week, together and he needed help with everything except feeding himself, but he was one of the most pleasant, enjoyable people I have ever known in my life. Always a complete gentleman, polite to me, we'd have small conversations but he couldn't hear well and couldn't always keep track of a complex conversation but he wouldn't forget things either, sense of humor, loved his family (who were all very nice people), 95 years old and still handsome with a gorgeous smile. He was a multi-millionaire, lives with his wife (who was still healthy) in a gorgeous condo with real art, but he was down to earth and easy to get along with. He's a devout Jew, and several times said he prayed every day of his life, believed in god, and felt that had really been an important part of his life. Who was I to argue his long life, loving marriage, healthy successful children and grandchildren, successful business (which he STILL OWNED and RAN from his recliner!), and incredible personality? Another client would have me take her to Mass. She said I didn't have to come in with her if I chose, but I would because I would NEVER leave a client in case they were to fall or something were to happen medically with them. Out of respect to her, I would sing the songs and listen respectfully, stand but not kneel, and not take communion (having never been catholic). I was there to make her life easier, take her to mass, and be a pleasant person for her, NOT to throw my atheism out there like a big blanket over her life and choices. Again, she was an altogether pleasant person, we had fun conversations, and she was truly deserving of respect and pleasant companionship. Younger people, however, I wouldn't mind getting in a bit of a debate with, IF they brought up the subject first, or expressed some doubt towards xianity, in which case I would happily discuss it with them. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bfuddled Posted May 26, 2014 Share Posted May 26, 2014 I have had MANY crying spells in this process. There IS comfort and safety in the Christian religion, even if it is false. Many times I have wished I could rewind and erase all the doubts and just live my life in the shell of Christianity. But I think, knowing myself, and my desire to learn about things and find the truth, I would have eventually found it whether it was now or later. I am struggling right now, though, with my husband who is still very much a Christian. I refrain from talking to him about anything religious (mostly), and am hesitant to be honest with him about my non-belief (he has an idea, but I've never stated it definitely), because I don't want him to feel pushed or pressured to change his beliefs. I would never want to shove my ideas in anyone's face, especially someone I love, because I KNOW how closely those beliefs are held and how integral they are. Whether I believe them anymore or not, I respect that he has to process things on his own time/terms, and he may never decide to go there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Llwellyn Posted May 26, 2014 Author Share Posted May 26, 2014 And then there's that highly non-empathic last verse of that psalm. You mean this one: Psalm 137:9 -- "Happy is the one who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks." The Bible glorifies the most unnatural of acts -- homicide. I've heard that not even Piranhas will kill other members of their same species. But "the Good Book" contains crass murderous tirades. That, of course is the flip side of the coin -- we should not take away things that are precious to people, but Christianity is so demented that it should not be adopted in the first place. In a culture where proselytization becomes taboo, eventually the proportion of people infected with the God meme will become smaller and smaller. The number of Christians who should rightly be handled with soft-gloves will fall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amateur Posted May 27, 2014 Share Posted May 27, 2014 I have had MANY crying spells in this process. There IS comfort and safety in the Christian religion, even if it is false. Many times I have wished I could rewind and erase all the doubts and just live my life in the shell of Christianity. But I think, knowing myself, and my desire to learn about things and find the truth, I would have eventually found it whether it was now or later. I am struggling right now, though, with my husband who is still very much a Christian. I refrain from talking to him about anything religious (mostly), and am hesitant to be honest with him about my non-belief (he has an idea, but I've never stated it definitely), because I don't want him to feel pushed or pressured to change his beliefs. I would never want to shove my ideas in anyone's face, especially someone I love, because I KNOW how closely those beliefs are held and how integral they are. Whether I believe them anymore or not, I respect that he has to process things on his own time/terms, and he may never decide to go there. I am SO sorry for your situation. It sounds so very, very hard and you sound like a thoughtful, thinking, kind person. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator florduh Posted May 27, 2014 Super Moderator Share Posted May 27, 2014 I do feel for the person who comes to realize his deeply held belief is actually a load of meadow muffins. Clinging to a comforting superstition can be helpful; I saw how it helped my father get through his final illness and the suffering it brought. I would not go so far as to agree with him, but I didn't attempt to talk him out of the only thing that helped him cope. However, I must weigh the benefits of a harmless fantasy against the reality of the evils perpetrated by religion. It's a no brainer - the world would be better off without religion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellinas Posted May 27, 2014 Share Posted May 27, 2014 I am struggling right now, though, with my husband who is still very much a Christian. I refrain from talking to him about anything religious (mostly), and am hesitant to be honest with him about my non-belief (he has an idea, but I've never stated it definitely), because I don't want him to feel pushed or pressured to change his beliefs. I would never want to shove my ideas in anyone's face, especially someone I love, because I KNOW how closely those beliefs are held and how integral they are. Whether I believe them anymore or not, I respect that he has to process things on his own time/terms, and he may never decide to go there. That is precisely where I am with my wife. It's not easy. However, I believe that, with time and with the seed of my own unbelief planted (if largely unacknowledged), she will eventually come round to a way of thinking that will allow me to be more open without causing grief to her. I sincerely hope the same is true for you. The ability to "bide your time" is key to this one. Be patient and feel free to shout on this site if you feel the need. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vigile Posted May 27, 2014 Share Posted May 27, 2014 I don't get it. Faith is way overrated as far as I'm concerned. When I was a believer faith wasn't free, but came with strings attached. Those strings were buttloads of guilt and fear; fear I'd fuck up and fear others would fuck up. I suppose some can compartmentalize and their xian experience is/was pollyannaish, but if that's their personality type to begin with they probably will be able to put a positive spin on losing their faith too. As for the rest of us, it was better than MLKs promise, we truly were free at last. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bfuddled Posted May 27, 2014 Share Posted May 27, 2014 I have had MANY crying spells in this process. There IS comfort and safety in the Christian religion, even if it is false. Many times I have wished I could rewind and erase all the doubts and just live my life in the shell of Christianity. But I think, knowing myself, and my desire to learn about things and find the truth, I would have eventually found it whether it was now or later. I am struggling right now, though, with my husband who is still very much a Christian. I refrain from talking to him about anything religious (mostly), and am hesitant to be honest with him about my non-belief (he has an idea, but I've never stated it definitely), because I don't want him to feel pushed or pressured to change his beliefs. I would never want to shove my ideas in anyone's face, especially someone I love, because I KNOW how closely those beliefs are held and how integral they are. Whether I believe them anymore or not, I respect that he has to process things on his own time/terms, and he may never decide to go there. I am SO sorry for your situation. It sounds so very, very hard and you sound like a thoughtful, thinking, kind person. Thank you. Having this site is making all the difference in coping with things. I'm so glad I found it. I am struggling right now, though, with my husband who is still very much a Christian. I refrain from talking to him about anything religious (mostly), and am hesitant to be honest with him about my non-belief (he has an idea, but I've never stated it definitely), because I don't want him to feel pushed or pressured to change his beliefs. I would never want to shove my ideas in anyone's face, especially someone I love, because I KNOW how closely those beliefs are held and how integral they are. Whether I believe them anymore or not, I respect that he has to process things on his own time/terms, and he may never decide to go there. That is precisely where I am with my wife. It's not easy. However, I believe that, with time and with the seed of my own unbelief planted (if largely unacknowledged), she will eventually come round to a way of thinking that will allow me to be more open without causing grief to her. I sincerely hope the same is true for you. The ability to "bide your time" is key to this one. Be patient and feel free to shout on this site if you feel the need. I'm hoping that is how things go, too. He is aware that I'm certainly not "sold" on the faith anymore, and any time he opens the conversation I will discuss it, but I don't go into full detail about things, I just introduce the questions/etc that I've had and some of the contradictions and leave it for him to think out. I don't offer my conclusions, because I think the point is to gently and consistently introduce the reality of the contradictions and false beliefs in a non-threatening way so that he is thinking about them. We actually had a good convo the other day about things, where he was discussing things that happened when he was deployed to Iraq (USMC, in 2005). He has always said that god protected him in more ways than one while he was there, and that he has no other explanation than that for how he came back unscathed. His humvee went over an IED and the other 2 guys in the vehicle were pretty badly injured, he was able to get out and help them, didn't get any injuries except a black eye. There were a few other things that happened (I can't remember the specifics now), and he was convinced that it was god's protection that kept him alive and without major injury. Of course, that doesn't explain the fact that there were guys in his unit who died and/or got seriously injured, who were also religious, so why didn't god protect them? But he told me that if he decides that he doesn't believe in God he feels like he's being ungrateful about the fact that he was protected. I know that doesn't make a lot of sense, but I think he means that if he even starts to THINK about those thoughts, then God will see that as a betrayal? I guess it was a good convo in the sense that he was entertaining the idea that those things could have been something other than god. I guess I'm just trying to adjust right now to the fact that he may never decide to adjust his beliefs. I feel incredibly alone in this process right now, because he's always been the one I share everything with. So to go on this path alone is pretty lonely. I don't get it. Faith is way overrated as far as I'm concerned. When I was a believer faith wasn't free, but came with strings attached. Those strings were buttloads of guilt and fear; fear I'd fuck up and fear others would fuck up. I suppose some can compartmentalize and their xian experience is/was pollyannaish, but if that's their personality type to begin with they probably will be able to put a positive spin on losing their faith too. As for the rest of us, it was better than MLKs promise, we truly were free at last. I think the further I'm getting from my faith, the less I'm seeing it through rose colored glasses. There are areas that I'm angry about and I honestly think that my anxiety level has gone way down in the last 3 weeks or so since I finally admitted that I didn't believe anymore. I still have moments that I think of the sense of security that I got from "knowing" that God would take care of things, and that is what I miss right now. Even though it was/is a false promise, it soothed the fear for a short period of time. Now I feel like I don't get even that little relief because I know that the future is pretty much up to me, which can be terrifying and freeing at the same time. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cousin Ricky Posted May 27, 2014 Share Posted May 27, 2014 I do feel for the person who comes to realize his deeply held belief is actually a load of meadow muffins. Doesn't this describe most of us here at Ex-Christian.net? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tollo Posted May 31, 2014 Share Posted May 31, 2014 On the other hand, some of the things I said about my deconversion to my sister actually led her to abandon the religion too and I feel weirdly guilty for that. She was very quick to trust me at my word that it was false. I don't really want anyone taking my word for it. And now I feel like she is in a tough place with my parents and all. I don't know. She doesn't seem to miss it, but I feel bad for some reason.... How old is your sister? Have you talked to her about your concerns? Perhaps she had already been questioning, or perhaps she just trusted you enough to take her own hard look at Christianity. If not, you could just let her know that you're only human, and that she has to vet your conclusions like any other. It was up to her to make what she did of your comments, and she has to make her own decisions concerning her relationship with your parents. You have nothing to feel guilty about, and if she doesn't miss Christianity, there wouldn't appear to be a problem. I think on principle atheism should be the most comforting belief system because it allows so much more wonder, honesty, and self-ownership but usually I find it means for most people my age: arguments, suffering through church, parents being invasive and controlling, loss of motivation... I don't really know though. For me it has made me a lot happier but I don't want to screw with anyone's life.For some people, the idea that one will live forever in happiness and be reunited with their loved ones is the most comforting thought. For me, I saw it as a trade-off: exchanging a comforting but false belief in a desired afterlife for the disappointing but true realization that death is final. Losing the worry about burning in HELL forever was, of course, a big relief, but the realization of one's own mortality takes some getting used to. Not feeling guilty about sex is also a big advantage, although whether that outweighs not living forever is an individual thing. Of course, believing that one will live forever does not mean one will live forever, but this reality is irrelevant to the happiness of the believer. If your views are not hateful, it's hard to see how sharing them can screw with someone else's life. If their faith is so fragile that you could de-convert them in an instant, it's not really your fault. My sister is 18, so she's an adult and it's her decision. She has been wrestling with my parents about it, refusing to go to church, etc. she says sometimes how much xtians annoy her and how she can't stand being around them. I guess I'm kinda like "well geez, you still have to deal with people" but it really is her decision and to be fair she didn't like them before she deconverted. It's funny, both of us grew up with a bit of resentment for serious Christians even though we were them, theoretically. Lucky, I guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted May 31, 2014 Super Moderator Share Posted May 31, 2014 I know who my worst enemy is and I would not wish deconversion upon her, especially if it were to be as brutal as was mine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bfuddled Posted May 31, 2014 Share Posted May 31, 2014 Welcome back RNP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted June 1, 2014 Super Moderator Share Posted June 1, 2014 Welcome back RNP Thanks. Glad to be home. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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