I Just Don't Know Anymore

[Alyena]

I grew up with christian parents, and was raised in the church.  I had been a christian for years, but there was always a bothersome doubt in the back of my mind that it was all true.  Even when I was baptized, I struggled to truly believe.  Regardless, I put my faith in the idea that christianity was true and tried to live my life by it, because it seemed to be the most reasonable thing to believe in.  I thought for years that if I hadn't had christian beliefs instilled in me, I would probably be an atheist, at least in the sense that I would not follow any religion and would think that everything could probably be explained by science.  Regardless, I believed that there was evidence to support christianity being true, and for this reason I put my faith in it.  My father is a physicist and is a very intelligent person who knows a lot about science, and he is a christian.  He believes that christianity is the most logical thing to believe in.  I trusted him, and he was the primary reason I believed chrstianity was true.  He told me about things like the Bible code, and irreducible complexity.  He had me watch documentaries like "The Privileged Planet" and "Darwin's Dillema" which discussed ideas such as irreducible complexity and the idea that Earth is fine-tuned for life.  It was all very convincing to me.  I believed that science pointed toward christianity, and for this reason thought it was most reasonable and logical to be a christian.

 

It was only when I started seriously drifting away from christianity emotionally that I seriously started questioning it.  I lost a lot of my emotional desire to be a christian.  I started thinking more seriously about ideas such as Hell, and whether or not it is fair to deserve eternal punishment of that sort.  I hesitate to even call Hell "punishment", as the purpose of a punishment should be to teach someone a lesson so that they can do better in the future.  If Hell lasts forever, then anyone in Hell, no matter how sorry they are, can NEVER have a second chance.  How is that punishment? How can that be fair? It makes NO logical sense whatsoever to me.  Whenever I talked to a christian friend of mine about this, they said that God is so great and good that disobeying him is a crime deserving eternal suffering.  This didn't make sense to me.  Even if disobeying God is THAT bad, how can it be fair to be punished for it if we don't even KNOW that it's that bad? People don't realise, whenever they "sin", that their sin is that bad, or else they wouldn't do it.  How is it fair to be punished for something that you didn't even know was deserving of such horrible punishment? Many christians say that as soon as a person sins for the first time, that they are separated from God and are deserving of Hell.  What if a 12 year old steals a tootsie roll?  Are they deserving of eternal Hell?  What if someone makes a small mistake? Why is that deserving of eternal torture? I don't understand it.  It's easy to accept the idea of Hell when you are little and you are tought that it is real.  But I think that if anyone truly thinks seriously about what it means to suffer for eternity, they cannot think that it is fair.  This is the reason that I have thought for years that Hell probably doesn't last forever.  Instead, I thought Hell was perhaps in concept like a black hole, lasting a little while to a person inside of it, but appearing to last forever to a person outside of it viewing it.  In this sense, Hell could be eternal yet still not last forever to a person inside Hell.  But really, I don't know if any evidence of this being true.  It is merely a rationalization. Christians act like it is essential to believe that you are deserving of Hell in order to be a christian. You must believe you are sinful and your only hope is Jesus, and that you do not deserve Heaven, but in fact you deserve Hell.  This is something that I just can't yet seem to accept.

 

Also, a person's religion depends mostly upon when and where they were born.  Whenever a person is raised to believe something, it really seems true.  I want to know the truth.

 

Most scientists believe that science disproves christianity.  I have heard that christianity was copied from previous religions, but I don't know if this is true.  I hesitate to believe it, because I think some atheists believe false things.  I read that Jesus was copied from the Egyptain god Horus, however after doing some google searching there are many sources that say this is not true.  If this is not true, then I hesitate to take the word of people who say that Jesus was copied from previous religions.  I need to be shown the evidence.  I need evidence from reliable sources.  If there is real evidence out there that disproves the Bible being the word of God, PLEASE show it to me.  I really want to know!  I will accept whatever the truth is.

 

I have watched Evid3nc3's videos on youtube, and found them very interesting.  He was a true christian, yet deconverted because of the evidence he was given that disproved christianity.  I want to know in detail what he learned. 

 

It seems to me that most people believe what they believe for mostly emotional reasons.  I have been told that if a person wants to stop believing in God, then they will find reason to.  However, if they want to believe, they will also find reason to.  There seems to be rational ways to believe, or not to believe.  This bothers me.  In II Thessalonians 2, it says "10and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved. 11For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, 12in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness."  This makes me think that God will provide a seemingly logical way for those who do not want to believe not to believe.

 

So, if any of you have any groundbreaking evidence against christianity, please tell me.  As of now, I feel there is no easy way to figure this out.  I am surrounded by friends and family who are christian, and it makes me almost feel sick knowing that I have been drifting away from christianity.  I just finished high school and my dad wants me to go to a christian college.  I stopped taking communion every Sunday, and it makes me feel terrible knowing that my parents are worried about me.  I don't want to die one day and go to Hell.  I don't want God to be angry with me.

 

Any helpful comments would be appreciated.

 

 

 

[bfuddled]

Hi Alyena,

 

I don't have any time right now to really reply to all your questions, and there's others here who are much more qualified to give concrete evidence. I just wanted to say Welcome and you are not alone. Most of what you're expressing is pretty similar to many of the stories/ideas that people around here have or have had at one time.

 

I'll post more tonite when I have a bit more time, but for now, welcome.

[wanderinstar]

Welcome Alyena! Thankyou for your post. I'm sorry to hear about the situation you are in, believing family etc. I am not that knowledgeable but many here have PhDs and would be glad to show you all the inconsistencies in Christianity. For me the history of Jesus and the bible sunk my faith. So much of the key parts of the NT were written centuries after Jesus supposedly lived and the earliest parts decades later. No contemporary of Jesus wrote about him which is really odd considering the works he supposedly did, raise the dead, massive earthquake and tombs opening when he died. Keep researching and I'm sure you will find your own conclusions and path in this life. I wish you all the best.

[Alyena]

Hi Alyena,

 

I don't have any time right now to really reply to all your questions, and there's others here who are much more qualified to give concrete evidence. I just wanted to say Welcome and you are not alone. Most of what you're expressing is pretty similar to many of the stories/ideas that people around here have or have had at one time.

 

I'll post more tonite when I have a bit more time, but for now, welcome.

Thanks

[Alyena]

Welcome Alyena! Thankyou for your post. I'm sorry to hear about the situation you are in, believing family etc. I am not that knowledgeable but many here have PhDs and would be glad to show you all the inconsistencies in Christianity. For me the history of Jesus and the bible sunk my faith. So much of the key parts of the NT were written centuries after Jesus supposedly lived and the earliest parts decades later. No contemporary of Jesus wrote about him which is really odd considering the works he supposedly did, raise the dead, massive earthquake and tombs opening when he died. Keep researching and I'm sure you will find your own conclusions and path in this life. I wish you all the best.

Thanks, I would really like to talk to those PhDs sometime.

[BlindersRemoved]

Have you read the entire bible? That did it for me. I was ignorant of science and certainly didn't know anything about ancient religions. I didn't start looking into all of that until after I had concluded that the bible was written by man. I simply used my own rational thought to come to that conclusion.

 

Isaac Asimov wrote Asimov's Guide to the Bible, which details the history of the biblical stories. Another book I read was Coming to Peace with Science. This was written by a Christian biologist who says that evolution is fact. He claims that it was all part of god's plan, but I didn't buy his reasoning.

 

There is a wealth of information out there on the internet. Read testimonials from former clergy who no longer believe.

[Brother Jeff]

Hi Alyena,

 

The best sites I can recommend to you are http://www.christianitydisproved.com and http://www.rejectionofpascalswager.net . Spend time really thinking about what you learn at those sites and I think you will come away convinced that Christianity can't possibly be true. They are good places to start, anyway. 

 

Hell is an evil myth created by the Catholic Church centuries ago to control the masses through FEAR. Hell is not and cannot be real. Think about it. If there is a loving God, can there really be a place where human beings whom he claims to love are tormented forever without any hope of reprieve? I don't think so...

 

There is no dilemma within Darwinism. The evidence for biological evolution is simply overwhelming! As far as irreducible complexity goes, that's an idea that has been shown to be false for some time now. Relevant link:

 

http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CB/CB200.html

 

Did you know that 2 Thessalonians is a known forgery? It's doubtful that Paul actually wrote it. Should you really be concerned or fearful about what an ancient anonymously-written book has to say? Relevant link:

 

http://www.rejectionofpascalswager.net/authornt.html

 

In fact, several books in the New Testament are known forgeries! See the link I posted above for more info. We don't even know who wrote the Gospels, and they are the only record we have of the life of Jesus! Speaking of the Gospels, we now know that they are myth. I highly recommend spending the time to watch this video. Dr. Carrier shares a great deal of very interesting information. His lecture starts at 27:45. Just click the link in the red box in the video and it will take you there.

 

http://youtu.be/ILldt2XHZw0

 

The earth may be the only place we currently know of that supports life as we understand it, but it's not fine-tuned for life, and neither is the universe. Relevant link:

 

http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CI/CI301.html

 

It is true that the religion a person believes in depends a lot on where they were born. Religious belief is very much geographically determined!

 

Jesus and Horus and many of the ancient pagan savior-gods share many of the same attributes. Check out this site:

 

http://www.pocm.info/

 

If Jesus is real as depicted in the Gospels, then why does he rate so high on Lord Raglan's Hero Pattern Scale? Relevant link:

 

http://department.monm.edu/classics/courses/clas230/MythDocuments/HeroPattern/default.htm

 

This article that I wrote several years ago might be food for thought, too:

 

http://religionisbullshit.me/brainwashing-and-fear-the-tools-of-the-church/

 

I hope I haven't overwhelmed you with information! I hope this all helps.

[par4dcourse]

Welcome to the site. You're at the right place. Lots of us had many of the same doubts and questions. Let us know how we can help!

[Alyena]

Hi Alyena,

 

The best sites I can recommend to you are http://www.christianitydisproved.com and http://www.rejectionofpascalswager.net . Spend time really thinking about what you learn at those sites and I think you will come away convinced that Christianity can't possibly be true. They are good places to start, anyway. 

 

Hell is an evil myth created by the Catholic Church centuries ago to control the masses through FEAR. Hell is not and cannot be real. Think about it. If there is a loving God, can there really be a place where human beings whom he claims to love are tormented forever without any hope of reprieve? I don't think so...

 

There is no dilemma within Darwinism. The evidence for biological evolution is simply overwhelming! As far as irreducible complexity goes, that's an idea that has been shown to be false for some time now. Relevant link:

 

http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CB/CB200.html

 

Did you know that 2 Thessalonians is a known forgery? It's doubtful that Paul actually wrote it. Should you really be concerned or fearful about what an ancient anonymously-written book has to say? Relevant link:

 

http://www.rejectionofpascalswager.net/authornt.html

 

In fact, several books in the New Testament are known forgeries! See the link I posted above for more info. We don't even know who wrote the Gospels, and they are the only record we have of the life of Jesus! Speaking of the Gospels, we now know that they are myth. I highly recommend spending the time to watch this video. Dr. Carrier shares a great deal of very interesting information. His lecture starts at 27:45. Just click the link in the red box in the video and it will take you there.

 

http://youtu.be/ILldt2XHZw0

 

The earth may be the only place we currently know of that supports life as we understand it, but it's not fine-tuned for life, and neither is the universe. Relevant link:

 

http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CI/CI301.html

 

It is true that the religion a person believes in depends a lot on where they were born. Religious belief is very much geographically determined!

 

Jesus and Horus and many of the ancient pagan savior-gods share many of the same attributes. Check out this site:

 

http://www.pocm.info/

 

If Jesus is real as depicted in the Gospels, then why does he rate so high on Lord Raglan's Hero Pattern Scale? Relevant link:

 

http://department.monm.edu/classics/courses/clas230/MythDocuments/HeroPattern/default.htm

 

This article that I wrote several years ago might be food for thought, too:

 

http://religionisbullshit.me/brainwashing-and-fear-the-tools-of-the-church/

 

I hope I haven't overwhelmed you with information! I hope this all helps.

Thank you for the information!  I'll definitely check all of it out!

[♦ Fuego ♦]

I grew up with christian parents, and was raised in the church.  I had been a christian for years, but there was always a bothersome doubt in the back of my mind that it was all true.  Even when I was baptized, I struggled to truly believe.  Regardless, I put my faith in the idea that christianity was true and tried to live my life by it, because it seemed to be the most reasonable thing to believe in.  I thought for years that if I hadn't had christian beliefs instilled in me, I would probably be an atheist, at least in the sense that I would not follow any religion and would think that everything could probably be explained by science.  Regardless, I believed that there was evidence to support christianity being true, and for this reason I put my faith in it.  My father is a physicist and is a very intelligent person who knows a lot about science, and he is a christian.  He believes that christianity is the most logical thing to believe in.  I trusted him, and he was the primary reason I believed chrstianity was true.  He told me about things like the Bible code, and irreducible complexity.  He had me watch documentaries like "The Privileged Planet" and "Darwin's Dillema" which discussed ideas such as irreducible complexity and the idea that Earth is fine-tuned for life.  It was all very convincing to me.  I believed that science pointed toward christianity, and for this reason thought it was most reasonable and logical to be a christian.

 

It was only when I started seriously drifting away from christianity emotionally that I seriously started questioning it.  I lost a lot of my emotional desire to be a christian.  I started thinking more seriously about ideas such as Hell, and whether or not it is fair to deserve eternal punishment of that sort.  I hesitate to even call Hell "punishment", as the purpose of a punishment should be to teach someone a lesson so that they can do better in the future.  If Hell lasts forever, then anyone in Hell, no matter how sorry they are, can NEVER have a second chance.  How is that punishment? How can that be fair? It makes NO logical sense whatsoever to me.  Whenever I talked to a christian friend of mine about this, they said that God is so great and good that disobeying him is a crime deserving eternal suffering.  This didn't make sense to me.  Even if disobeying God is THAT bad, how can it be fair to be punished for it if we don't even KNOW that it's that bad? People don't realise, whenever they "sin", that their sin is that bad, or else they wouldn't do it.  How is it fair to be punished for something that you didn't even know was deserving of such horrible punishment? Many christians say that as soon as a person sins for the first time, that they are separated from God and are deserving of Hell.  What if a 12 year old steals a tootsie roll?  Are they deserving of eternal Hell?  What if someone makes a small mistake? Why is that deserving of eternal torture? I don't understand it.  It's easy to accept the idea of Hell when you are little and you are tought that it is real.  But I think that if anyone truly thinks seriously about what it means to suffer for eternity, they cannot think that it is fair.  This is the reason that I have thought for years that Hell probably doesn't last forever.  Instead, I thought Hell was perhaps in concept like a black hole, lasting a little while to a person inside of it, but appearing to last forever to a person outside of it viewing it.  In this sense, Hell could be eternal yet still not last forever to a person inside Hell.  But really, I don't know if any evidence of this being true.  It is merely a rationalization. Christians act like it is essential to believe that you are deserving of Hell in order to be a christian. You must believe you are sinful and your only hope is Jesus, and that you do not deserve Heaven, but in fact you deserve Hell.  This is something that I just can't yet seem to accept.

 

Also, a person's religion depends mostly upon when and where they were born.  Whenever a person is raised to believe something, it really seems true.  I want to know the truth.

 

Most scientists believe that science disproves christianity.  I have heard that christianity was copied from previous religions, but I don't know if this is true.  I hesitate to believe it, because I think some atheists believe false things.  I read that Jesus was copied from the Egyptain god Horus, however after doing some google searching there are many sources that say this is not true.  If this is not true, then I hesitate to take the word of people who say that Jesus was copied from previous religions.  I need to be shown the evidence.  I need evidence from reliable sources.  If there is real evidence out there that disproves the Bible being the word of God, PLEASE show it to me.  I really want to know!  I will accept whatever the truth is.

 

I have watched Evid3nc3's videos on youtube, and found them very interesting.  He was a true christian, yet deconverted because of the evidence he was given that disproved christianity.  I want to know in detail what he learned. 

 

It seems to me that most people believe what they believe for mostly emotional reasons.  I have been told that if a person wants to stop believing in God, then they will find reason to.  However, if they want to believe, they will also find reason to.  There seems to be rational ways to believe, or not to believe.  This bothers me.  In II Thessalonians 2, it says "10and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved. 11For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, 12in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness."  This makes me think that God will provide a seemingly logical way for those who do not want to believe not to believe.

 

So, if any of you have any groundbreaking evidence against christianity, please tell me.  As of now, I feel there is no easy way to figure this out.  I am surrounded by friends and family who are christian, and it makes me almost feel sick knowing that I have been drifting away from christianity.  I just finished high school and my dad wants me to go to a christian college.  I stopped taking communion every Sunday, and it makes me feel terrible knowing that my parents are worried about me.  I don't want to die one day and go to Hell.  I don't want God to be angry with me.

 

Any helpful comments would be appreciated.

 

1. "the idea that Earth is fine-tuned for life" This is a circular idea. They are looking at the end result of millions of years of evolved life and saying that it started that way. Or stated more clearly, Life is fine-tuned to Earth because it grew up here.

 

2. Many smart people believe non-smart things for emotional reasons. I believed whole-heartedly for more than 30 years because of a simple childish fear that led to my conversion. That fear led me to the Bible, and to church. I found acceptance among a social group for the first time in my life and that is what made it powerful for me. Once I was able to distance myself from the fear, I was able to question without trying to make evidence fit my preconceived ideals, and the Bible fell apart. Most believers are heavily conditioned to not genuinely question the god of the Bible or his atrocities.

 

3. Damnation is not a concept found in Judaism, and yet Christianity claims to be the fulfillment of the Jewish faith. A burning underworld is not a Jewish concept. It was very much a concept in the religions of the world-powers of the time of Jesus: Rome and Greece. It was also found in Persian Zoroastrianism. A place of eternal torment is a bizarre idea. When we think of really good people or holy people, we don't think of them torturing others. That is because good people don't do that. The whole concept of a god needing blood to satisfy his petulant anger is ridiculous to modern minds. If I said I were pissed at you, and was going to kill you, but instead decided to slaughter my own son instead, would that make me the ultimate incarnation of Love and goodness, or an evil psychopath? What if I called myself holy, would that make it ok? Of course not. Again, Christians will justify the atrocities of their god because they are conditioned to defend him as holy, love, good all the time, etc. Doubt is seen as a threat to their special relationship with Jesus, so they recoil from any kind of doubt, and make up excuses to call evil good.

 

4. There is no evidence that Jesus was a real person, except perhaps an early cult leader. None of the gospels were created by known people, the names on them were added afterward. They are called eyewitness testimonies, but are simply stories by devoted cult members about their leader or founder. Cults ALWAYS glorify their leaders, and attribute miraculous things to him or her. There are thousands of current examples of this behavior. The "Strong City" cult of New Mexico glorifies a guy called Wayne Bent as Jesus. The ladies all screw him because they think they are being the bride of Christ by doing so.

The Apostle Paul never met Jesus, and only some of his writings in the Bible appear to actually be written by Paul. Much of what he says seems to originate with himself. Since he considered himself to be in direct contact with god, he was fine introducing several rules to the church that Jesus never did in the gospels.

 

5. What if there were a mother who baked some brownies, filling the house with the smell of chocolate, then set the brownies on the table in front of the kids and said "Don't eat any, or I will curse and kill you!" This is basically what the god of the Bible did in Eden with the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Would such a mother be good if she really meant that she'd kill the kids? The whole idea of original sin is based on Adam and Eve eating magic fruit after Eve was tricked by a talking snake. Today, Christians say the snake was the devil, but Genesis says it was a snake, a clever animal that was then cursed to crawl on the ground and "eat dust", which is an ignorant pre-zoology explanation for why snakes flit their tongues all the time. (And if just one snake did this, why are all snake species cursed?) The sacrifice of Jesus is meaningless if Adam and Eve's story is just a myth. Guess what? It's a myth.

 

Believers are controlled by fears, and they fear that you are drifting from the faith, and that their good holy loving god will curse you. They will try magic language (prayer) to motivate the invisible good beings (god and angels) to fight against the invisible bad beings (devil and demons) and try to save your invisible soul from the psychotic wrath of god. You are seeing through the lies and are finding your way out. It is ok to question. It is good that you are using your mind, and asking honest questions. Don't accept excuses for a violent and psychopathic god. He isn't real and no fear is due him. It is the same as fearing the wrath of Zeus or Thor or Isis, or any of the thousands of other gods that people devoted their lives and fortunes to in the days of old.

 

Be free!