mymistake Posted June 18, 2014 Posted June 18, 2014 Getting more & more acquainted with God's word, rightly dividing it & praying sincerely to Him helps one know when God is speaking to us. Which is how I know God doesn't speak to us because there is no God. Sometimes when we don't understand it's because of the hardness of our hearts- Yes, it is the hardness of your heart (a metaphor for stubbornness) that prevents you from understanding. (Mark 8:17) The Gospel of Mark is a novel. The Bible is less relevant today than the Harry Potter series.
Thumbelina Posted June 18, 2014 Posted June 18, 2014 "Read not to contradict and confute; nor to believe and take for granted; nor to find talk and discourse; but to weigh and consider" Francis Bacon Do you weigh and consider what you read in the bible to be truth? Or just assume it is? Do you question the veracity of any of its scriptures? Do you ever criticize God's actions in the bible? Or just believe he's always correct? I tend to think that there is nothing that is perfect or infallible. Have you ever had a group of people gossip about and slander you? I had to partake in God's/Christ's suffering (1 Peter 4:13) these past two years in that I was slandered by an entire church clique. I am weary of people now and my naturally cautious introverted self is really weary of folks. When the slander was going on the people didn't trust me (the slander did backfire on them though ). Trust builds relationships. God wants us to learn of Him (His wonderful,holy self)and when we do we WILL trust Him (John 12:32). Sorry those people slandered you. Pop their tires while they're in the sanctuary. :-) Yes, I do weigh, consider, question etc.. I don't criticize God, He's always right but I do readily admit there are things I don't understand & gradually I'm understanding more of why God does certain things. Yeah, I'm sort of sorry they did too but because of them I was able too see God work! My angel-at least I believe it was my angel- even came twice and told me the family name of the main culprits long before I even knew of them & what they would do (John 14:29). Prior to them attacking my character, I did pray a prayer that asked God to help me not be so timid & that was partially how He chose to answer it. He moved His hedge of protection from me & Satan sicced the gossipmongering bullies after timid ol' me. I stood up to the bullies, they taunted me when I did. One even was mocking me during a program by saying "I'm shy". Are you commanding me to render evil for evil?
Leo Posted June 18, 2014 Posted June 18, 2014 The whole relationship thing made less and less sense the older I got. I always found myself trying to justify God's existence to myself. Not unlike the way many wives of absentee husbands, or many mothers co-parenting with absentee fathers might do. "Yes he loves me. No, he's just not around much. Yes he means well. ..." and on and on and on. And yet, as a father, I always tried to be there for my daughter. As a husband, I have been anything but absent. The best find, ultimately, was that god simply does not exist. Then you stop toiling to make sense out of the nonsense. As an aside, I hope the profile photo is a photo of an actual human, and is not just a logo. I am completely blind, and downloaded what I believe to be my Facebook photo. Although the Wife is in process of making Her peace with my atheism - something She has suspected for a long time - I don't feel like asking Her to verify that on a site dedicated to ex-Christians. Anyway sorry for the sidetrack, just didn't want to mislead there with the photo. But yes, the relationship part, which my daughter and wife still tout, is really quite odd when you come to think of it. But Stockholm Syndrome is really the best explanation, whoever posted that. Relationship inside one's head? That matches Richard Dawkins' discussion of memes in the God Delusion. Anyway guess it's a bit strange for a lurker / new member to fall right into the Lions' Den. But you all have been very instructive over the past few months.
Thumbelina Posted June 18, 2014 Posted June 18, 2014 Ahem, the bible uses marriage and a husband and wife becoming one flesh to illustrate how we ought to be. God uses physical things to teach spiritual truths. And then god expects us to spend all of eternity in heaven with no more regard for our former spouses than we have for the check-out clerk at Wal-Mart. What kind of sick tyrant would use such an example? Could you please cite the scripture that supports your assertion? "For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels of God in heaven." Matthew 22:30 "For when they rise from the dead, they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven." Mark 12:25 Every. Single. Body in heaven will be friends. There was once this feisty Pastor at a church I attended & he said "You know what? I wanna go to heaven! I want to see what's better than sex!!!" The bible says that David & Jonathan's friendship was better than the love of women; well that was like how our friendships in heaven will be like but even better as it'll be a PERFECT environment.
Moderator TrueFreedom Posted June 18, 2014 Moderator Posted June 18, 2014 Ahem, the bible uses marriage and a husband and wife becoming one flesh to illustrate how we ought to be. God uses physical things to teach spiritual truths. And then god expects us to spend all of eternity in heaven with no more regard for our former spouses than we have for the check-out clerk at Wal-Mart. What kind of sick tyrant would use such an example? Could you please cite the scripture that supports your assertion? "For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels of God in heaven." Matthew 22:30 "For when they rise from the dead, they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven." Mark 12:25 Every. Single. Body in heaven will be friends. There was once this feisty Pastor at a church I attended & he said "You know what? I wanna go to heaven! I want to see what's better than sex!!!" The bible says that David & Jonathan's friendship was better than the love of women; well that was like how our friendships in heaven will be like but even better as it'll be a PERFECT environment. The Bible doesn't say that there won't be sex, nor does it say that David and Jonathan did not enjoy gay sex.
Roz Posted June 18, 2014 Posted June 18, 2014 Yup, she's SDA. 1. no burning forever and ever in hell 2. doesn't drink 3. investigative judgement (jesus is recording your masturbation sessions) 4. keeps dodging her adventism 5. in heaven, we'll be like the angels, no more marriages I'm intrigued because she sounds like a traditional adventist http://leavingsda.com/conservative-adventist/ http://leavingsda.com/adventist-exclusiveness-1/
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted June 18, 2014 Super Moderator Posted June 18, 2014 Ahem, the bible uses marriage and a husband and wife becoming one flesh to illustrate how we ought to be. God uses physical things to teach spiritual truths. And then god expects us to spend all of eternity in heaven with no more regard for our former spouses than we have for the check-out clerk at Wal-Mart. What kind of sick tyrant would use such an example? Could you please cite the scripture that supports your assertion? "For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels of God in heaven." Matthew 22:30 "For when they rise from the dead, they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven." Mark 12:25 Every. Single. Body in heaven will be friends. Could you please cite the scripture that supports your assertion?
mymistake Posted June 18, 2014 Posted June 18, 2014 The bible says that David & Jonathan's friendship was better than the love of women . . . That is because David and Jonathan had sex with each other. Just as a point of clarification: Unlike most Bible characters I consider Saul, Jonathan, David and company to be based on real people. However I think the deeds attributed to them in the Bible to be greatly exaggerated and largely propagandized. Saul and David were more like bandit leaders or warlords rather than proper kings. And their "kingdom" was more like thousands of refugees huddling together on some hilltops trying to figure out how to forge a new way of life. David's decedents held on to power as the hilltop communities grew so David came to be remembered as a great king. David was the ancestor to somebody important.
Roz Posted June 18, 2014 Posted June 18, 2014 Annnnd... Psalm 23's comforting with the rod and staff just got a whole new meaning...
♦ ficino ♦ Posted June 18, 2014 Author Posted June 18, 2014 Hello Ficino, God wants to be our lover but us stiff-necked humans tend to give Him a run for His money. Many people misunderstand His character & that prevents them from drawing close to Him but He is eager to have a personal relationship with each of us. Yes, I saw her post & my heart goes out to her or anyone that feels that way. Thanks for the sympathy. You did say you are serious about your question. Look at the quote I put from Francis Bacon. It sort of explains God's decision in giving us the freedom to reject Him. God does not force us to believe so we can at least be open minded about the gospel/good news of salvation. OK, but none of this goes to the issues of the OP. LeoBirdMan now has just expressed the same thoughts as I tried to do.
directionless Posted June 18, 2014 Posted June 18, 2014 I'm not sure if this idea makes any difference to the issues raised in the OP. What if one of the following is true? - universal salvation (where salvation means getting to know God better) - reincarnation (if at first you don't succeed...) - a single soul existing in every living creature without realizing it - everybody else is a simulation or an agent of God working towards your own progress (i.e. each person lives in their own private universe) Obviously that's not standard Christianity, but it seems like it would solve issues of fairness?
midniterider Posted June 19, 2014 Posted June 19, 2014 Getting more & more acquainted with God's word, rightly dividing it & praying sincerely to Him helps one know when God is speaking to us. Sometimes when we don't understand it's because of the hardness of our hearts- look it up, Jesus told HIS OWN disciples that they don't understand because of their hard hearts (Mark 8:17). They were predetermined, they wanted God to have a temporal kingdom; they wanted Jesus to get involved in silly politicking. Hmmm. I dont have to rightly divide or pray to know when my wife is speaking to me. I could be happy or angry, smart or stupid and still I would know when a real existing human being was talking to me. Human voices are more powerful than Jesus' voice! I would say that in reality the voice of Jesus is 100% you asking yourself and your family for guidance, coming up with something on your own, and then giving God the credit. As far as Jesus and his apostles goes, how is it that Jesus, the omniscient, all powerful, all everything could not make himself understood to his 12 buddies? How could the apostles harden their hearts so much that Jesus could not get inside? The apostles hearts were more powerful than Jesus' words! Really, though, the bible is fiction. So this is a fictional discussion. :-) 2
midniterider Posted June 19, 2014 Posted June 19, 2014 Yes, I do weigh, consider, question etc.. I don't criticize God, He's always right but I do readily admit there are things I don't understand & gradually I'm understanding more of why God does certain things. Why do you think God is always right? And are we talking about the bible God or your indwelling God, which in reality is your own thought process ? Yeah, I'm sort of sorry they did too but because of them I was able too see God work! My angel-at least I believe it was my angel- even came twice and told me the family name of the main culprits long before I even knew of them & what they would do (John 14:29). Prior to them attacking my character, I did pray a prayer that asked God to help me not be so timid & that was partially how He chose to answer it. He moved His hedge of protection from me & Satan sicced the gossipmongering bullies after timid ol' me. I stood up to the bullies, they taunted me when I did. One even was mocking me during a program by saying "I'm shy". It sounds as if those attackers were not True Christians. I wonder how God could have allowed those people and/or Satan into his house to bully you. Are you commanding me to render evil for evil? No, I'm being a smart ass. :-) --------------- On a personal, non-religious-debate level I'm sorry you had to deal with crap like that. People are people , whether religious or not and now and then are buttheads. I'm a people pleaser in person so when someone acts like a moron (I dealt with one recently) it can mess with the brain chemicals in a bad way. I'm glad you resolved it. I dont know how you stood up to your bullies but "WWJD" is always a good question to hit some badly behaving Christian with. Push the guilt/fear/shame button. ha.
midniterider Posted June 19, 2014 Posted June 19, 2014 Every. Single. Body in heaven will be friends. There was once this feisty Pastor at a church I attended & he said "You know what? I wanna go to heaven! I want to see what's better than sex!!!" The bible says that David & Jonathan's friendship was better than the love of women; well that was like how our friendships in heaven will be like but even better as it'll be a PERFECT environment. Ask a heroin addict what's better than sex. :-)
midniterider Posted June 19, 2014 Posted June 19, 2014 The Bible doesn't say that there won't be sex, nor does it say that David and Jonathan did not enjoy gay sex. It's Adam and Steve, not Dave and John. :-)
Thumbelina Posted June 19, 2014 Posted June 19, 2014 Ahem, the bible uses marriage and a husband and wife becoming one flesh to illustrate how we ought to be. God uses physical things to teach spiritual truths. And then god expects us to spend all of eternity in heaven with no more regard for our former spouses than we have for the check-out clerk at Wal-Mart. What kind of sick tyrant would use such an example? Could you please cite the scripture that supports your assertion? "For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels of God in heaven." Matthew 22:30 "For when they rise from the dead, they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven." Mark 12:25 Every. Single. Body in heaven will be friends. There was once this feisty Pastor at a church I attended & he said "You know what? I wanna go to heaven! I want to see what's better than sex!!!" The bible says that David & Jonathan's friendship was better than the love of women; well that was like how our friendships in heaven will be like but even better as it'll be a PERFECT environment. The Bible doesn't say that there won't be sex, nor does it say that David and Jonathan did not enjoy gay sex. The Bible doesn't say that there won't be sex, For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels of God in heaven." Matthew 22:30 "For when they rise from the dead, they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven." Mark 12:25 nor does it say that David and Jonathan did not enjoy gay sex. Eh, that David loved the women, so if a man like that can find a platonic friendship with a male that was better than the love of women we DEFINITELY know there will be joy unspeakable in heaven where there will be no more pain, death, crying, selfishness. On a more serious note, the bible tells the story of love & redemption throughout its pages. The relationship between David & Jonathan is a type of the relationship between Jesus & the Father. David means 'beloved one, darling'. Jonathan is a common masculine given name meaning "YHWH has given" in Hebrew. They had agape & phileo type of love.
Thumbelina Posted June 19, 2014 Posted June 19, 2014 Ahem, the bible uses marriage and a husband and wife becoming one flesh to illustrate how we ought to be. God uses physical things to teach spiritual truths. And then god expects us to spend all of eternity in heaven with no more regard for our former spouses than we have for the check-out clerk at Wal-Mart. What kind of sick tyrant would use such an example? Could you please cite the scripture that supports your assertion? "For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels of God in heaven." Matthew 22:30 "For when they rise from the dead, they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven." Mark 12:25 Every. Single. Body in heaven will be friends. Could you please cite the scripture that supports your assertion? That's the basic theme in the ENTIRE bible. God has to restore His image in us before we can get to heaven otherwise we would carry the sin disease there and infect others. If we find someone that does not harm you in any way, shape or form & they have a wonderful friendly disposition & is helpful, is it not normal to like & befriend that person? 1 John 3:1,2,10; 1 John 4:7,8; John 13:34; John 15:4-6; Philippians 2:4; Romans 12:10 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+John+3%3A1%2C2%2C10%3B+1+John+4%3A7%2C8%3B+John+13%3A34%3B+John+15%3A4-6%3B+Philippians+2%3A4%3B++Romans+12%3A10&version=KJV Mark 12:31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.
Thumbelina Posted June 19, 2014 Posted June 19, 2014 Hello Ficino, God wants to be our lover but us stiff-necked humans tend to give Him a run for His money. Many people misunderstand His character & that prevents them from drawing close to Him but He is eager to have a personal relationship with each of us. Yes, I saw her post & my heart goes out to her or anyone that feels that way. Thanks for the sympathy. You did say you are serious about your question. Look at the quote I put from Francis Bacon. It sort of explains God's decision in giving us the freedom to reject Him. God does not force us to believe so we can at least be open minded about the gospel/good news of salvation. OK, but none of this goes to the issues of the OP. LeoBirdMan now has just expressed the same thoughts as I tried to do. People seem to think knowing God is there loving them is all about ooey gooey feelings (when those come they are nice though so I'm not dismissing it). ... but a reciprocal loving relationship between God & man comes about mainly by His Word! By having faith in what has been revealed, faith/trust comes by hearing & hearing by the word of God. God MANIFESTS Himself to those who obey Him etc. God did come & pitch His tent with the Israelites in the OT but they wanted their own way. God says He exalts His WORD MORE than His name. His Word shows His character & people who do not rightly divide it then misunderstand Him & say His Word contradicts itself.
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted June 19, 2014 Super Moderator Posted June 19, 2014 Ahem, the bible uses marriage and a husband and wife becoming one flesh to illustrate how we ought to be. God uses physical things to teach spiritual truths. And then god expects us to spend all of eternity in heaven with no more regard for our former spouses than we have for the check-out clerk at Wal-Mart. What kind of sick tyrant would use such an example? Could you please cite the scripture that supports your assertion? "For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels of God in heaven." Matthew 22:30 "For when they rise from the dead, they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven." Mark 12:25 Every. Single. Body in heaven will be friends. Could you please cite the scripture that supports your assertion? That's the basic theme in the ENTIRE bible. God has to restore His image in us before we can get to heaven otherwise we would carry the sin disease there and infect others. If we find someone that does not harm you in any way, shape or form & they have a wonderful friendly disposition & is helpful, is it not normal to like & befriend that person? 1 John 3:1,2,10; 1 John 4:7,8; John 13:34; John 15:4-6; Philippians 2:4; Romans 12:10 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+John+3%3A1%2C2%2C10%3B+1+John+4%3A7%2C8%3B+John+13%3A34%3B+John+15%3A4-6%3B+Philippians+2%3A4%3B++Romans+12%3A10&version=KJV Mark 12:31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these. Not a single verse you have listed supports the claim that every single body in heaven will be friends. Each verse does, however, deal with how a christian should deal in love with those around him/her. Part of love is trust. As BAA points out, you have major trust issues, which you have demonstrated here. For example, you don't even trust us enough to tell us whether or not you are a Seventh Day Adventist. Since you do not trust us, you are not treating us in love. Moreover, I fail to see how you could possibly have made up the lie that every single body in heaven will be friends when you christians can't even get along here on earth. Weren't you just the other day bitching about some of your christian friends bad-mouthing you? Will you be friends with those people for all eternity when you can't even respond to them with loving forgiveness and christian charity here on earth? This will be the last response you get from me until you respond to two very simple questions: 1. Are you a Seventh Day Adventist? 2. What are your thoughts on god condoning slavery in the bible? 1
Thumbelina Posted June 19, 2014 Posted June 19, 2014 As far as Jesus and his apostles goes, how is it that Jesus, the omniscient, all powerful, all everything could not make himself understood to his 12 buddies? How could the apostles harden their hearts so much that Jesus could not get inside? The apostles hearts were more powerful than Jesus' words! They were being trained. God's revelation comes in increments. If you are in a dark place, would you like someone to shine bright stadium lights in your eyes right away? They were supposed to reach a certain higher level already but because they had certain preconceived ideas in their heads it was blocking them from understanding what Christ was saying. After the resurrection they realized what was up!
sdelsolray Posted June 19, 2014 Posted June 19, 2014 People seem to think knowing God is there loving them is all about ooey gooey feelings (when those come they are nice though so I'm not dismissing it). ... but a reciprocal loving relationship between God & man comes about mainly by His Word! By having faith in what has been revealed, faith/trust comes by hearing & hearing by the word of God. God MANIFESTS Himself to those who obey Him etc. God did come & pitch His tent with the Israelites in the OT but they wanted their own way. God says He exalts His WORD MORE than His name. His Word shows His character & people who do not rightly divide it then misunderstand Him & say His Word contradicts itself. This one has documented trust issues in real life and self-medicates that emptiness with religious fantasy.
♦ ficino ♦ Posted June 19, 2014 Author Posted June 19, 2014 People seem to think knowing God is there loving them is all about ooey gooey feelings (when those come they are nice though so I'm not dismissing it). ... but a reciprocal loving relationship between God & man comes about mainly by His Word! By having faith in what has been revealed, faith/trust comes by hearing & hearing by the word of God. God MANIFESTS Himself to those who obey Him etc. God did come & pitch His tent with the Israelites in the OT but they wanted their own way. God says He exalts His WORD MORE than His name. His Word shows His character & people who do not rightly divide it then misunderstand Him & say His Word contradicts itself. I repeat: none of this goes to the issues addressed in the OP. If God is omni-everything AND wants to have relationships with his creatures, we expect some relating on the part of God, NOT some other human giving us "God talk." Your answer, T, amounts to more "God talk" - i.e. "go read an ancient book." There are some touches to the Exodus story that depict God as doing things directly to/for the Hebrews. I take those as part of the myth. But even in the story, most of what the Hebrews get is Moses saying stuff to them and claiming to speak for God. Again, amounts to "God talk" from a human. No credibility, since human God talk has been going on in different places and times since recorded history, composed of lots of mutually contradictory claims.
Thumbelina Posted June 19, 2014 Posted June 19, 2014 Yes, I do weigh, consider, question etc.. I don't criticize God, He's always right but I do readily admit there are things I don't understand & gradually I'm understanding more of why God does certain things. Why do you think God is always right? And are we talking about the bible God or your indwelling God, which in reality is your own thought process ? Yeah, I'm sort of sorry they did too but because of them I was able too see God work! My angel-at least I believe it was my angel- even came twice and told me the family name of the main culprits long before I even knew of them & what they would do (John 14:29). Prior to them attacking my character, I did pray a prayer that asked God to help me not be so timid & that was partially how He chose to answer it. He moved His hedge of protection from me & Satan sicced the gossipmongering bullies after timid ol' me. I stood up to the bullies, they taunted me when I did. One even was mocking me during a program by saying "I'm shy". It sounds as if those attackers were not True Christians. I wonder how God could have allowed those people and/or Satan into his house to bully you. Are you commanding me to render evil for evil? No, I'm being a smart ass. :-) --------------- On a personal, non-religious-debate level I'm sorry you had to deal with crap like that. People are people , whether religious or not and now and then are buttheads. I'm a people pleaser in person so when someone acts like a moron (I dealt with one recently) it can mess with the brain chemicals in a bad way. I'm glad you resolved it. I dont know how you stood up to your bullies but "WWJD" is always a good question to hit some badly behaving Christian with. Push the guilt/fear/shame button. ha. Why do you think God is always right? And are we talking about the bible God or your indwelling God, which in reality is your own thought process ? Because He manifested Himself to me, not physically but through His Word & Providence. He's shown me hundreds of times that He is there. I'm talking about the bible God which is the same God that's in my heart. It sounds as if those attackers were not True Christians. I wonder how God could have allowed those people and/or Satan into his house to bully you. They were displaying tare-like characteristics but you know ... God did not come to call the righteous but sinners to repentance. Church is a hospital for sinners. Some folks have acute diseases, some have chronic diseases but all will die eventually if they don't hang on to the Great Physician. Yes, I knew you were being a smart alec so was I but I was preaching too "... when someone acts like a moron (I dealt with one recently) it can mess with the brain chemicals in a bad way. I'm glad you resolved it. I dont know how you stood up to your bullies but "WWJD" is always a good question to hit some badly behaving Christian with." About the above quote, I say amen brother, preach it!
Thumbelina Posted June 19, 2014 Posted June 19, 2014 Every. Single. Body in heaven will be friends. There was once this feisty Pastor at a church I attended & he said "You know what? I wanna go to heaven! I want to see what's better than sex!!!" The bible says that David & Jonathan's friendship was better than the love of women; well that was like how our friendships in heaven will be like but even better as it'll be a PERFECT environment. Ask a heroin addict what's better than sex. :-) Just ask a sex addict what's better than sex? They are addicts what do they know?! We need a peace that passes understanding.
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