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Feminist Threads, Cue Trolls


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CB you have some real anger/power and control issues that you should get some professional help with.  

 

 

 

not a matter of opinion, you're just wrong

 

You can't win a debate by just telling everyone you are right and they are wrong.  Doesn't work like that.

 

Learn to accept that everyone is entitled to their opinion.  

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Isn't it ironic.

Alanis morrisette

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CB you have some real anger/power and control issues that you should get some professional help with.  

 

 

 

not a matter of opinion, you're just wrong

 

You can't win a debate by just telling everyone you are right and they are wrong.  Doesn't work like that.

 

Learn to accept that everyone is entitled to their opinion.  

 

First you're a lawyer, now a psychologist. I fail to see how you can measure someone's emotional and psychological state based on a few lines of text.

 

You're talking about things that aren't a matter of opinion. The definition of "rape culture" is something that can be quantified and has a correct definition. Your claims as to what it means in the context of this thread does not match that definition and the group you're trying to assign it to simply does not fit the description. Trying to label a group with such a term when it is not earned is libel and pretty disrespectful and offensive.

 

This isn't a case of "X" ice cream is my favorite". Given the fact that, informal nor not, this is a debate, you're not "entitled" to anything. Only what you can argue for matters in this format. You have your "opinion" and I have no obligation beyond acknowledging it. I see no reason to respect such an erroneous position, and in fact believe if anything else I am obligated to point out where it is in error and rebut it. I've done so quite exhaustively at this point.

 

I didn't win a debate by telling you that you were wrong, that was a closing statement and more a matter of style than substance. I did however, make an argument and back it up with a solid defense for my position. Something you've not done. All you've done is deflect, just like you're doing here.

 

If you're tired of discussion feel free to stop, but don't expect me to consider myself defeated because you deflected with one of the most overused non-arguments there is. "Everyone is entitled to their opinion" is just another way of saying "I give up, and want to imply that further discussion is unnecessary and possibly offensive without admitting defeat".

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Your understanding of the situation is strange.  What I meant by saying everyone is entitled to their opinion was "you are so closeminded and unwilling to learn that it is pointless to continue".   You've put a lot of time and effort into "defending" men, when clearly there was no attack on them.  Both men and women contribute to rape culture.  I think you are hypersensitive and taking it personally, and you lash out when you don't get your own way, or for no reason at all, like you did with xtify.

 

 It's not rocket science to recognise you're heavily invested in power and control.  Your poor anger management is cause for concern and I'm glad I don't have to deal with you irl.  I've seen you behave like this in several other threads and the sheer amount of text you produce makes it easy to pick your mood, which changes frequently.  People who can discuss respectfully don't write screeds of dogmatic i'm-right-you're-wrong bullshit.  I'd had enough of sugarcoating things for you.  The funny thing is, accepting that you live in a rape culture isn't in any way a threat to you.  No one is saying you are a rapist or you think rape is ok.  You were just being invited to approach the subject in a different way to what you're used to.  But that makes you feel threatened so you get defensive.  I can't help you with that, it's your issue.

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Your understanding of the situation is strange.  What I meant by saying everyone is entitled to their opinion was "you are so closeminded and unwilling to learn that it is pointless to continue".   You've put a lot of time and effort into "defending" men, when clearly there was no attack on them.  Both men and women contribute to rape culture.  I think you are hypersensitive and taking it personally, and you lash out when you don't get your own way, or for no reason at all, like you did with xtify.

 

 It's not rocket science to recognise you're heavily invested in power and control.  Your poor anger management is cause for concern and I'm glad I don't have to deal with you irl.  I've seen you behave like this in several other threads and the sheer amount of text you produce makes it easy to pick your mood, which changes frequently.  People who can discuss respectfully don't write screeds of dogmatic i'm-right-you're-wrong bullshit.  I'd had enough of sugarcoating things for you.  The funny thing is, accepting that you live in a rape culture isn't in any way a threat to you.  No one is saying you are a rapist or you think rape is ok.  You were just being invited to approach the subject in a different way to what you're used to.  But that makes you feel threatened so you get defensive.  I can't help you with that, it's your issue.

 

It seems to me that you only see your argument in the context of your local region's politics. It's pretty absurd that you're claiming "rape culture" in Western culture when what you suggest represents it is actually contrasted to the real rape cultures elsewhere in the world. I've been around a bit in my younger days and I've seen it myself. There's no comparison and you don't seem to realize how much worse it is for women elsewhere in the world. Where you are now is not all sunshine and rainbows from the sound of it, but your insistence only suggests to me that you've got no perspective on the matter because you've never really seen an actual rape culture before. Claiming Western Culture is a "rape culture" only serves to diminish the perceived severity of the issue where rape culture actually does exist. It's an insult to the struggles and suffering of the women in those regions.

 

It's a bit like an Alcoholic claiming that Alcoholism is a disease. Alcoholism is a serious problem and may even qualify as an illness, but claiming it is a disease just shows that the person making the claim has never been to a cancer ward and seen the patients there. It's simply insensitive to claim it's a disease and I'd think a cancer patient would be perfectly justified if they spit in the face of someone who claimed Alcoholism was a disease in front of them when they are suffering with a real disease.

 

At any rate this conversation has degraded to the point that nothing relevant or useful is being discussed. Your last post was just, Ad hom, projection, deflection, no actual rebuttal of any relevant points, repeating bald statements in lieu of an argument, hypocritical claims of disrespect, claims of black and white viewpoint, and "telling it like it is" while remaining tied to a rigid viewpoint (ironically). All a pretty good indication you're burned out on this and have nothing relevant to add and are merely attempting to drag it out to an "I have the last word" victory.

 

I usually don't see this unless I'm dealing with BO, and as far as I can tell, he's usually not being serious when he does it.

 

I'll come back and see if things have calmed down and whether there's any actual discussion going on in the thread tomorrow.

 

For now, enjoy your last word.

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The culture already makes rape unthinkable. Reasonable people know this. Unthinkable things still happen in a world where not everyone is nice. It takes a special kind of data interpretation to argue a rape friendly culture.

I read a poster here just the other day arguing that sex with an intoxicated woman wasn't rape.  Rape culture is right under your nose.

 

Exactly. If it were "unthinkable," there wouldn't be floods of people blaming the victims, making excuses, and talking about "legitimate rape" all the time.

 

 

 

Okay those events happen.  I guess what I object to is that the term rape culture sounds like all or nothing.  Perhaps it would be beneficial to acknowledge the nuances.  If rape is unthinkable to the majority of our culture that strikes me as progress.  The politicians who mentioned "legitimate rape" and similar sexist comments lost their elections.  So such things were not tolerated even in their own Red-State district.  And losing will provide it's own feedback that will at least discourage them from spreading these ideas.  We could look up the percentage of the vote they received and use that statistic as a reasonable representation of those who find such thinking acceptable.  But is it fair to brand the entire country as rape culture for these shrinking hold outs?

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CB you have some real anger/power and control issues that you should get some professional help with.  

 

 

 

not a matter of opinion, you're just wrong

 

You can't win a debate by just telling everyone you are right and they are wrong.  Doesn't work like that.

 

Learn to accept that everyone is entitled to their opinion.  

 

If CB does not agree that there is a rape culture he must be an angry control freak...

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"While it is helpful to point out the systemic barriers to addressing the problem, it is important to not lose sight of a simple fact: Rape is caused not by cultural factors but by the conscious decisions, of a small percentage of the community, to commit a violent crime".[65] It is estimated that in college, 90% of rapes are committed by 3% of the male population, though it is stipulated that they do not have reliable numbers for female perpetrators."

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_culture ( under Criticisms )

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CB you have some real anger/power and control issues that you should get some professional help with.  

 

 

 

not a matter of opinion, you're just wrong

 

You can't win a debate by just telling everyone you are right and they are wrong.  Doesn't work like that.

 

Learn to accept that everyone is entitled to their opinion.  

 

If CB does not agree that there is a rape culture he must be an angry control freak...

 

 

No, it's the aggressive and domineering style he uses that is the issue.   I'm not the one who has a problem with agreeing to disagree.

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Rape culture is not controversial in social science. It's like arguing against gravity. I think the problem is that people are making up their own definition of the phrase.

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Rape culture is not controversial in social science. It's like arguing against gravity. I think the problem is that people are making up their own definition of the phrase.

 

No one said that it was. You seem to be implying that someone said it doesn't exist and no one did.

 

The issue here is misusing the label by applying it to cultures where it does not fit, not someone suggesting that the idea itself is controversial and false. We're saying it's being over applied, not arguing that the idea itself is not valid.

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Rape culture is not controversial in social science. It's like arguing against gravity. I think the problem is that people are making up their own definition of the phrase.

 

No one said that it was. You seem to be implying that someone said it doesn't exist and no one did.

 

The issue here is misusing the label by applying it to cultures where it does not fit, not someone suggesting that the idea itself is controversial and false. We're saying it's being over applied, not arguing that the idea itself is not valid.

 

I haven't done what you are saying. This is the straw man I keep seeing.

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So is rape culture normal?  Is every part of the world covered in rape culture?  I don't get it.  It seems to me that the ability to denote the degree would be useful.

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So is rape culture normal?  Is every part of the world covered in rape culture?  I don't get it.  It seems to me that the ability to denote the degree would be useful.

It is "normal" not in the sense that everyone always does it, but in the sense that it is embedded in the rest of our culture and is invisible to us unless we are analyzing it. It passes under the radar, and that's where it gets its power. It's not a statement about an entire culture, it's a concept that describes particular things that go on in a given culture. The degree and form will depend on the culture that you're talking about. It's a relative and not absolute phrase. Rape culture is a name given to things like the tendency to blame the victim for rape. It's things in the culture, not the entire culture.

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No, it's the aggressive and domineering style he uses that is the issue.   I'm not the one who has a problem with agreeing to disagree.

 

 

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So is rape culture normal?  Is every part of the world covered in rape culture?  I don't get it.  It seems to me that the ability to denote the degree would be useful.

It is "normal" not in the sense that everyone always does it, but in the sense that it is embedded in the rest of our culture and is invisible to us unless we are analyzing it. It passes under the radar, and that's where it gets its power. It's not a statement about an entire culture, it's a concept that describes particular things that go on in a given culture. The degree and form will depend on the culture that you're talking about. It's a relative and not absolute phrase. Rape culture is a name given to things like the tendency to blame the victim for rape. It's things in the culture, not the entire culture.

 

 

 

If it is not intended to shame all men then maybe somebody should change the name.  

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So is rape culture normal?  Is every part of the world covered in rape culture?  I don't get it.  It seems to me that the ability to denote the degree would be useful.

It is "normal" not in the sense that everyone always does it, but in the sense that it is embedded in the rest of our culture and is invisible to us unless we are analyzing it. It passes under the radar, and that's where it gets its power. It's not a statement about an entire culture, it's a concept that describes particular things that go on in a given culture. The degree and form will depend on the culture that you're talking about. It's a relative and not absolute phrase. Rape culture is a name given to things like the tendency to blame the victim for rape. It's things in the culture, not the entire culture.

 

 

 

If it is not intended to shame all men then maybe somebody should change the name.  

 

And that's the reason why some men try to deny that rape culture exists in their country.  They think it's intended to shame all men.

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So is rape culture normal?  Is every part of the world covered in rape culture?  I don't get it.  It seems to me that the ability to denote the degree would be useful.

It is "normal" not in the sense that everyone always does it, but in the sense that it is embedded in the rest of our culture and is invisible to us unless we are analyzing it. It passes under the radar, and that's where it gets its power. It's not a statement about an entire culture, it's a concept that describes particular things that go on in a given culture. The degree and form will depend on the culture that you're talking about. It's a relative and not absolute phrase. Rape culture is a name given to things like the tendency to blame the victim for rape. It's things in the culture, not the entire culture.

 

 

 

If it is not intended to shame all men then maybe somebody should change the name.  

 

If a man is not a rapist, why should he be shamed? it's not called men suck culture.

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If a man is not a rapist, why should he be shamed? it's not called men suck culture.

 

 

 

Maybe take a look around here and see what has happened for the last two months.  I don't make people act like it's the men suck culture.  I do appreciate your efforts to make the conversation about science however there have been several people who have tried to distort nearly everything that those with the wrong genitals have said.  And that has been the norm just about everywhere else I've ever seen.  It makes it hard to have a serious conversation.  

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The culture already makes rape unthinkable. Reasonable people know this. Unthinkable things still happen in a world where not everyone is nice. It takes a special kind of data interpretation to argue a rape friendly culture.

I read a poster here just the other day arguing that sex with an intoxicated woman wasn't rape.  Rape culture is right under your nose.

 

Exactly. If it were "unthinkable," there wouldn't be floods of people blaming the victims, making excuses, and talking about "legitimate rape" all the time.

 

 

 

Okay those events happen.  I guess what I object to is that the term rape culture sounds like all or nothing.  Perhaps it would be beneficial to acknowledge the nuances.  If rape is unthinkable to the majority of our culture that strikes me as progress.  The politicians who mentioned "legitimate rape" and similar sexist comments lost their elections.  So such things were not tolerated even in their own Red-State district.  And losing will provide it's own feedback that will at least discourage them from spreading these ideas.  We could look up the percentage of the vote they received and use that statistic as a reasonable representation of those who find such thinking acceptable.  But is it fair to brand the entire country as rape culture for these shrinking hold outs?

 

Most of this has been answered already, but see below.

 

 

 

So is rape culture normal?  Is every part of the world covered in rape culture?  I don't get it.  It seems to me that the ability to denote the degree would be useful.

It is "normal" not in the sense that everyone always does it, but in the sense that it is embedded in the rest of our culture and is invisible to us unless we are analyzing it. It passes under the radar, and that's where it gets its power. It's not a statement about an entire culture, it's a concept that describes particular things that go on in a given culture. The degree and form will depend on the culture that you're talking about. It's a relative and not absolute phrase. Rape culture is a name given to things like the tendency to blame the victim for rape. It's things in the culture, not the entire culture.

 

 

 

If it is not intended to shame all men then maybe somebody should change the name.  

 

Or people could just learn what it means and start to make some distinctions between what's about individuals and what's about the systems in play.

 

In common talk, we don't have very precise language for these things, and that gets us into sloppy thinking--especially those of us who have privilege in areas. It's easy for men to think that sexism is only about individual guys who consciously think that women are inferior, just as it's easy for whites to think that racism is only about individuals who consciously think one race is or should be superior to others. But that ignores systemic racism and systemic sexism. Things happen in systems that have negative consequences for people without privilege--sometimes as holdovers from conscious prejudice, but sometimes just because things are complex and unintended consequences happen.

 

As a white, straight, formerly-christian male, I've had to learn to get past my defensive reactions and quit focusing on the personal aspect. I had to learn that the point of feminism wasn't to make me feel guilty, any more than the point of anti-racism was to make me take responsibility for stuff I didn't do. I also had to learn that in a system driven by sexism and racism and homophobia, I can't just be "not" any of those things. bell hooks says in a racist and sexist society, it's impossible to be not racist or not sexist; the only option is to be anti-racist and anti-sexist.

 

That's tough. You've got to oppose those things in yourself where they got buried deep, probably without your cooperation or consent. (I was a willing partner on sexism, though, coming from a sexist family and a sexist church background. I thought it was "god's will." sheesh.) But you also have to oppose the larger patterns.

 

"Rape culture" is about a pattern. It's about a whole bunch of complex stuff that sets up situations where rape, even if formally condemned, sits at one end of a spectrum of stuff that mostly isn't condemned, so that creeps can defend it but that the system doesn't fully oppose it. 

 

Does that mean that every man or every person in the culture needs to feel shame or guilt? Nope. Those aren't very useful. But it's useful to acknowledge what's going on. It's useful to take women (and men in disempowered situations) seriously when they talk about it. 

 

And it's more useful to be a voice defending people without privilege than those with. Men as a group don't need me to aggressively stand up for them, because the system is tilted their way. Rape victims are almost always people who have the system tilted against them to start. 

 

I do think there has been progress on this if we take the long view, and that's a good thing. Worldwide and even in the US, we still have a fair distance to go. 

 

So my personal solution is to acknowledge that rape culture exists, and that it's bad and needs to stop, which means that I need to be a voice against it where I can. 

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The culture already makes rape unthinkable. Reasonable people know this. Unthinkable things still happen in a world where not everyone is nice. It takes a special kind of data interpretation to argue a rape friendly culture.

I read a poster here just the other day arguing that sex with an intoxicated woman wasn't rape. Rape culture is right under your nose.

Why, when a man is drunk and abuses a woman, is he responsible for his actions while a drunk woman who has sex cannot be held responsible, and is considered to have been raped?

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The culture already makes rape unthinkable. Reasonable people know this. Unthinkable things still happen in a world where not everyone is nice. It takes a special kind of data interpretation to argue a rape friendly culture.

I read a poster here just the other day arguing that sex with an intoxicated woman wasn't rape. Rape culture is right under your nose.

Why, when a man is drunk and abuses a woman, is he responsible for his actions while a drunk woman who has sex cannot be held responsible, and is considered to have been raped?

 

I didn't say that.  I said that intoxicated people can't legally give consent.  If two intoxicated people have sex, the legal outcome would depend on who made a Police complaint, what they alleged, and what the investigation found.  I cannot possibly predict what that outcome would be in a hypothetical case.  

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The culture already makes rape unthinkable. Reasonable people know this. Unthinkable things still happen in a world where not everyone is nice. It takes a special kind of data interpretation to argue a rape friendly culture.

I read a poster here just the other day arguing that sex with an intoxicated woman wasn't rape. Rape culture is right under your nose.
Why, when a man is drunk and abuses a woman, is he responsible for his actions while a drunk woman who has sex cannot be held responsible, and is considered to have been raped?

I didn't say that. I said that intoxicated people can't legally give consent. If two intoxicated people have sex, the legal outcome would depend on who made a Police complaint, what they alleged, and what the investigation found. I cannot possibly predict what that outcome would be in a hypothetical case.

If a drunk man rapes a woman, he's responsible for his actions, which he should be. If a drunk woman has sex, she's proclaimed to have been raped because she couldn't give consent. They both made stupid decisions because of the same dangerous choice--drinking too much, which they knew could have consequences. But only one of them is considered responsible for the way he acted.

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Or people could just learn what it means and start to make some distinctions between what's about individuals and what's about the systems in play.

 

 

 

Yes, if millions of feminists would learn what it means then maybe they would stop using it wrong.  Now granted I have not met millions of feminists.  But the odds that every one I would ever meet for forty years in a row would be an outlier is simply astronomical.

 

The anger against feminists is caused by the actions of the wrong kind of feminists.

 

 

 

But that ignores systemic racism and systemic sexism.

 

Bravo.  You already found a better term.  

 

 

 

 

As a white, straight, formerly-christian male, I've had to learn to get past my defensive reactions and quit focusing on the personal aspect.

 

Well you haven't had the Rape Prevention Committee following you around for two months strait.  It gets to be a drag after a while.

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I saw a quote the other day "women live under patriarchy - and you feel threatened by feminists?"

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