Picking Up Sticks

[Roz]

If you Xtians are going to claim that the bible is inerrant then you have to read it for what it says rather adding to it verbally what you wish it had said. The bible (bad as it is) doesn't say these victims were evil. That's

either your idea or one from some other misguided Xtian. They are not in short supply. bill (william7davis)

 

Bill, excellent point.  Christians, you really should take it to heart.

 

This is yet another part of another email that my old pastor sent to me.  It's none other than the incident where the Israelites stoned a man for picking up sticks on the sabbath.

 

Let's read what the bible actually said about it, and then read what a 19th century christian apologist/prophet wrote about it.  That prophet had faith just like you do. 

 

Num 15 NKJV

³² Now while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man gathering sticks on the Sabbath day. ³³ And those who found him gathering sticks brought him to Moses and Aaron, and to all the congregation. ³⁴ They put him under guard, because it had not been explained what should be done to him.

³⁵ Then the Lord said to Moses, “The man must surely be put to death; all the congregation shall stone him with stones outside the camp.” ³⁶ So, as the Lord commanded Moses, all the congregation brought him outside the camp and stoned him with stones, and he died.

 

For context, verses 1-21 talked about different sacrifices to jesus.  22-29 talks about offerings for unintentional sins.  30-31 says to cut off anyone who sins defiantly.  37-41 talks about tassels on garments.

 

Num 15:32-36 basically says:

• The Israelites find a man gathering sticks (no other information given)
• They bring him to Moses and before the congregation
• They place him under guard
• Jesus says to Moses "Stone him."
• So they did

Now let's see what a 19th century WLC + JS says about it.

 

(Ellen White)

PP- p. 408

  The mixed multitude that came up with the Israelites from Egypt were a source of continual temptation and trouble. They professed to have renounced idolatry and to worship the true God; but their early education and training had molded their habits and character, and they were more or less corrupted with idolatry and with irreverence for God. They were oftenest the ones to stir up strife and were the first to complain, and they leavened the camp with their idolatrous practices and their murmurings against God. Soon after the return into the wilderness, an instance of Sabbath violation occurred, under circumstances that rendered it a case of peculiar guilt. The Lord's announcement that He would disinherit Israel had roused a spirit of rebellion. One of the people, angry at being excluded from Canaan, and determined to show his defiance of God's law, ventured upon the open transgression of the fourth commandment by going out to gather sticks upon the Sabbath. During the sojourn in the wilderness the kindling of fires upon the seventh day had been strictly prohibited. The prohibition was not to extend to the land of Canaan, where the severity of the climate would often render fires a necessity; but in the wilderness, fire was not needed for warmth. The act of this man was a willful and deliberate violation of the fourth commandment--a sin, not of thoughtlessness or ignorance, but of presumption.

 

• There's apparently a 'mixed multitude' that came up with the Israelites from Egypt
• They were 'more or less corrupted' by idolatry and irreverence for jesus
• These people... foreign non-Jew folk... were the ones 'to stir up strife and first to complain'
• They polluted the good Israelite camp with 'murmurings against god.'
• One of these people was apparently angry and showed his defiance by picking up sticks on the sabbath
• Oh, apparently fires were 'not needed for warmth' in the wilderness/desert and that there was a prohibition of lighting fires on the sabbath
• 'The act of this man was a willful and deliberate violation of the fourth commandment--a sin, not of thoughtlessness or ignorance, but of presumption.'

I'll just use wikipedia to quote desert temp ranges.  If you dispute wikipedia, feel free to show proof the entry's wrong and I'll believe you. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desert_climate

"Hot desert climates feature hot, typically exceptionally hot, periods of the year. In many locations featuring a hot desert climate, maximum temperatures of 40 °C (104 °F) to 45 °C (113 °F) are not uncommon in summer. During colder periods of the year, night-time temperatures can drop to freezing or below due to the exceptional radiation loss under the clear skies."

 

Wow... so that apologist/prophet added a lot of shit from what the bible -inerrant word of god- says... Why am I not surprised.  There's a prohibition for lighting fires specifically on the sabbath?  This man was one of those 'mixed multitude' and not an Israelite?  Hmm...

 

So... Do you believe that Ellen White really did have supernatural assistance, that god showed her this vision?  Just like other visions where all the dinosaurs were genetic experiments of humans and satan?

 

Or could it be that she was bullshitting?  Stoning a man for picking up sticks?  It's really immoral.  It's as immoral as stoning people because they slept with someone, as immoral as a christian saying 'jesus was right in killing babies because he must've known they were going to grow up to be bad people.' 

 

So the apologist/prophet makes up additional information to make the stick gatherer look 'evil.'  That apparently justifies the death penalty for this guy?  Heh.  Good job there. 

 

Stop making up shit, christians, and actually read your damn bibles.

[♦ ficino ♦]

This is an example of my point in my revelation/relationship rantings.  If God is omni-everything and wants to have a relationship with his people - here, the Israelites - he could have either made his own intervention with the guy picking up sticks, or he could have appeared to all the others in their perplexity and told them what to do - or he could have zapped the guy directly.  None of these.  Instead, Moses announces, "stone him to death," and everyone does it.  

 

The outcome is indistinguishable from what would have happened had Moses just made this command out of his own head.

 

We are told that God spoke to Moses.  God's not doing much relating to any of the others.

 

Doesn't help to say, "but now we have the HS and God speaks directly to each believer."  The reason why this doesn't help is so obvious that I say no more.

[centauri]

Since God's moral code (code for proper behavior) is supposed to be absolute and not relative, Christians who garden or do yard work on the sabbath should also be stoned.

Of course, Christians will let loose with a cascade of excuses that exempt them from obeying God's moral code.

[ironhorse]

Ellen G. White was a false teacher.

[Roz]

And how do you know your head's not filled with false knowledge?

 

For all we know the buddhists have it right.  Or the hindus, or maybe the greeks got it right.

 

Or no one's got it right so far...

[pratt]

And how do you know your head's not filled with false knowledge?

 

For all we know the buddhists have it right.  Or the hindus, or maybe the greeks got it right.

 

Or no one's got it right so far...

but Ellen zg White is still a false teacher,,,,,, LOL

[Roz]

Exactly.  All the christians can't be right.  All the religions can't be right.

 

But they can all be wrong.

 

How does the christian know he's got the right one out of just 40,000+ christian teachings?

[bornagainathiest]

Ironhorse wrote..

 

"Ellen G. White was a false teacher."

.

.

.

 

Unfounded, unsupported and baseless assertions like this can be summarily dismissed.

[thereisnoperfect]

But his entire rhetorical strategy is unfounded, baseless assertions and quoting people!

[◊ crazyguy123 ◊]

Exactly.  All the christians can't be right.  All the religions can't be right.

 

But they can all be wrong.

 

How does the christian know he's got the right one out of just 40,000+ christian teachings?

 

He likes his better than the others, therefore he's got the right one.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

Ellen G. White was a false teacher.

Don't you think it's odd that TinPony bombards us with quote after quote and link after link to apologists that he agrees with, but when someone quotes from an apologist that he doesn't agree with suddenly that apologist is a false teacher? 

 

What shall we do with false teachers, TinPony?  Under the law, they should be stoned to death; are you willing to cast the first stone?

[◊ crazyguy123 ◊]

Ellen G. White was a false teacher.

 

Got proof? Maybe she was right and you're wrong.

[Guest Marty]

Exactly.  All the christians can't be right.  All the religions can't be right.

 

But they can all be wrong.

 

How does the christian know he's got the right one out of just 40,000+ christian teachings?

 

^THIS!!  This is what went through my head, almost verbatim,  when I was riding my bike the day I allowed myself to think there is no god at all!  It was one of those moments where it seemed so obvious I felt stupid for not seeing it earlier...

[ironhorse]

 

Ellen G. White was a false teacher.

Don't you think it's odd that TinPony bombards us with quote after quote and link after link to apologists that he agrees with, but when someone quotes from an apologist that he doesn't agree with suddenly that apologist is a false teacher? 

 

What shall we do with false teachers, TinPony?  Under the law, they should be stoned to death; are you willing to cast the first stone?

 

 

 

I'm saying that the scriptures teach that we should test the spirits.

There are warnings after warnings about false teachers and antichrists in the New Testament.

 

I'm not casting any stones. I'm simply thinking.

[mymistake]

'm simply thinking.

 

 

But not critically.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

 

 

Ellen G. White was a false teacher.

Don't you think it's odd that TinPony bombards us with quote after quote and link after link to apologists that he agrees with, but when someone quotes from an apologist that he doesn't agree with suddenly that apologist is a false teacher? 

 

What shall we do with false teachers, TinPony?  Under the law, they should be stoned to death; are you willing to cast the first stone?

 

 

 

I'm saying that the scriptures teach that we should test the spirits.

There are warnings after warnings about false teachers and antichrists in the New Testament.

 

I'm not casting any stones. I'm simply thinking.

 

And in what manner have you tested the spirit of Ellen White?  By what standard have you determined she was a false teacher? 

[Roz]

It's fascinating.  IH damns Ellen White and the adventist doctrine using the exact same verse that SDAs damn his mix-and-match dogma.

 

I'm sure IH has some scripture verses that he thinks backs up his points, just like the SDAs have verses that back up theirs.

 

2 personal messengers of god, IH and EW?

 

Or 2 deluded individuals?

 

Here's 5 speckled sheep as a bet for the latter.  

[ironhorse]

 

 

 

Ellen G. White was a false teacher.

Don't you think it's odd that TinPony bombards us with quote after quote and link after link to apologists that he agrees with, but when someone quotes from an apologist that he doesn't agree with suddenly that apologist is a false teacher? 

 

What shall we do with false teachers, TinPony?  Under the law, they should be stoned to death; are you willing to cast the first stone?

 

 

 

I'm saying that the scriptures teach that we should test the spirits.

There are warnings after warnings about false teachers and antichrists in the New Testament.

 

I'm not casting any stones. I'm simply thinking.

 

And in what manner have you tested the spirit of Ellen White?  By what standard have you determined she was a false teacher? 

 

 

 

Here's one:

 

The Investigative Judgement:

 

“In 1844[Christ] entered the second and last phase of His atoning ministry. It is a work of investigative judgement which is part of the ultimate disposition of all sin It also makes manifest who among the living are abiding in Christ, keeping the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus, and in Him, therefore, are ready for translation into His everlasting kingdom. This judgement vindicates the justice of God in saving those who believe in Jesus. It declares that those who have remained loyal to God shall receive the kingdom”

http://www.bereanpublishers.com/facts-and-false-doctrines-of-the-seventh-day-adventist-church/

 

 

No scripture for investigative judgement and this teaches that salvation is by works.

[Roz]

And there's the crux.  All the christian does is compare something with his holy book.  If it doesn't mesh, then it must be wrong.  You know the adventists use that same holy book to say that going to church on sunday is not biblical either.

 

Jury, what's more likely.  That both IH, Ellen, and all other christians are just using their favorite set of ancient writings to back up their superstitions?

 

Or that hey, christianity was right!  But which one?  And if you pick the wrong one out of 40k+ major ones and thousands more minor league denominations, you're going to hell forever.

 

Please, christians, think critically about your own set of beliefs.  Ellen, IH, the Muslims, the Jews all believe in the same god of Abraham, yet they hold vastly conflicting beliefs. 

 

This is partly why I posted this.

[ironhorse]

And there's the crux.  All the christian does is compare something with his holy book.  If it doesn't mesh, then it must be wrong.  You know the adventists use that same holy book to say that going to church on sunday is not biblical either.

 

Jury, what's more likely.  That both IH, Ellen, and all other christians are just using their favorite set of ancient writings to back up their superstitions?

 

Or that hey, christianity was right!  But which one?  And if you pick the wrong one out of 40k+ major ones and thousands more minor league denominations, you're going to hell forever.

 

Please, christians, think critically about your own set of beliefs.  Ellen, IH, the Muslims, the Jews all believe in the same god of Abraham, yet they hold vastly conflicting beliefs. 

 

This is partly why I posted this.

 

I was asked why I believed Ellen White was a false teacher.

I posted about the Investigative Judgement taught by the SDA.

It is not in the Bible.

[mymistake]

 

I was asked why I believed Ellen White was a false teacher.

I posted about the Investigative Judgement taught by the SDA.

It is not in the Bible.

 

 

You say that like it's a bad thing.  

[Roz]

"I was asked why I believed Ellen White was a false teacher.

I posted about the Investigative Judgement taught by the SDA.

It is not in the Bible."

 

And the SDA have biblical proof of their judgement being in the bible:  http://www.amazingfacts.org/media-library/study-guide/e/4996/t/case-closed.aspx

 

This is the whole point IH.  You have no more proof why you're more credible than other religious people because the same proof you use is the same one they use.

 

This is why science has a much more excruciating testing and proving method than mere superstitions. 

[ironhorse]

And there's the crux.  All the christian does is compare something with his holy book.  If it doesn't mesh, then it must be wrong.  You know the adventists use that same holy book to say that going to church on sunday is not biblical either.

 

Jury, what's more likely.  That both IH, Ellen, and all other christians are just using their favorite set of ancient writings to back up their superstitions?

 

Or that hey, christianity was right!  But which one?  And if you pick the wrong one out of 40k+ major ones and thousands more minor league denominations, you're going to hell forever.

 

Please, christians, think critically about your own set of beliefs.  Ellen, IH, the Muslims, the Jews all believe in the same god of Abraham, yet they hold vastly conflicting beliefs. 

 

This is partly why I posted this.

 

My wife was raised in a 7th Day Adventist church. I am very familiar with

their teachings and even attended one of their conferences one year. We 

have visited her former church (many of her relatives attend) many times.

 

Concerning the Sabbath...Ellen White made a major point that sabbath observance

is still in force and SDAs teach that it is the Mark of the Beast.

 

This is what I read in the scriptures:

Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of any holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days.

~Colossians 2:16 (King James)

[mymistake]

 

 

This is what I read in the scriptures:

Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of any holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days.

~Colossians 2:16 (King James)

 

 

Who was Paul to overturn the laws of God?

[Roz]

 

And there's the crux.  All the christian does is compare something with his holy book.  If it doesn't mesh, then it must be wrong.  You know the adventists use that same holy book to say that going to church on sunday is not biblical either.

 

Jury, what's more likely.  That both IH, Ellen, and all other christians are just using their favorite set of ancient writings to back up their superstitions?

 

Or that hey, christianity was right!  But which one?  And if you pick the wrong one out of 40k+ major ones and thousands more minor league denominations, you're going to hell forever.

 

Please, christians, think critically about your own set of beliefs.  Ellen, IH, the Muslims, the Jews all believe in the same god of Abraham, yet they hold vastly conflicting beliefs. 

 

This is partly why I posted this.

 

My wife was raised in a 7th Day Adventist church. I am very familiar with

their teachings and even attended one of their conferences one year. We 

have visited her former church (many of her relatives attend) many times.

 

Concerning the Sabbath...Ellen White made a major point that sabbath observance

is still in force and SDAs teach that it is the Mark of the Beast.

 

This is what I read in the scriptures:

Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of any holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days.

~Colossians 2:16 (King James)

 

 

you quote one scripture and the SDAs will say you took that out of context.  They come back with something like "these are they that keep the commandments of god" as their justification that they're right and you're wrong, and then you say they took that verse out of context.

 

BTW, SDAs are very good at doing just that: 

http://www.sdanet.org/atissue/books/27/27-19.htm

 

Welcome to religious debates. 

This is why we no longer buy your bullshit, or anyone else's.

This is why there's thousands of denominations, and then thousands more splinters of those denominations.

 

You cannot prove what you say is any more credible than any other christian's beliefs. 

 

Seriously, look in the mirror and ask yourself this question.  If your arguments were being used by another religious person trying to convert YOU into their religion, would the arguments work?