Ranger26 Posted June 9, 2014 Share Posted June 9, 2014 So it just got to me that Christians always use Hitler as an example of why hell has to exist. They say deep down we all want to see justice being served for everything that he did, thus implying that we as humans believe that a just God has to punish bad deeds, that it is within us to believe so.However, what they don't realize, is that if Hitler accepted Christ just before he killed himself, he might actually be in heaven (although suicide is also a sin), but you get my point. If he died of natural cause or was killed, but has accepted Christ before that and was remorseful for everything he did, then he would be in heaven. Christians don't realize that their logic fails. There is nothing just in that sort of system.With that statement they also equate Hitler with anyone who is kind, generous, and moral person, but was born outside of Christianities sphere of influence and was non-religious, Hindu, Muslim, Buddhist, etc. etc. and therefore deserves the same punishment as Hitler. I do not see any logic with that kind of thinking, while that is exactly what most apologists use to defend hell. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted June 9, 2014 Super Moderator Share Posted June 9, 2014 Don't forget that all the Jews, Gypsies, and homosexuals Hitler had murdered also ended up in hell, through no fault of their own. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thackerie Posted June 9, 2014 Share Posted June 9, 2014 Hell is NOT justice. No one deserves eternal torment. Not even a Hitler. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skankboy Posted June 9, 2014 Share Posted June 9, 2014 Justice is only "just" if the punishment is appropriate for the "crime". Eternal punishment is not an appropriate response for a finite amount of failure. And, how is it "just" if there's no possibility of reformation? We send people to prison for 2 reasons - to separate them from "normal" society (like hell) but also to (hopefully) reform them and re-integrate them into society. How is it them that our "human" justice system is more "just" than the divine one? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator TrueFreedom Posted June 9, 2014 Moderator Share Posted June 9, 2014 Excessive punishment is unjust. Scapegoating is unjust. Today's doctrine of hell as a place of eternal torment is disgusting and ridiculous. Heaven doesn't make much sense either, but it's not near as deplorable an idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megasamurai Posted June 9, 2014 Share Posted June 9, 2014 There's also the theory that bad people would cause immense suffering in heaven and that hell protects people. My problem is: 1. Couldn't God just destroy Hitler's soul as well as his body instead of stir fry him. and 2. How could some of the most loving people I know be a danger to society because of their disbelief? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bhim Posted June 9, 2014 Share Posted June 9, 2014 Don't forget that all the Jews, Gypsies, and homosexuals Hitler had murdered also ended up in hell, through no fault of their own. From the fires of Hitler to the fires of hell. I wonder if they'd even notice the transition. Even as a Christian who awed at God's just revenge, I used to ask myself this. As Thackerie observed, even Hitler didn't kill sufficiently many Jews to go to eternal hell. No one who does finite evil can merit infinite vengeance exacted upon himself. So I would reply to any Calvinists in the room that no, deep down I don't want Hitler to go to hell. That's the problem with a binary justice system: nobody is deserving of either fate that can be meted out. Of course I don't feel sympathetic for Hitler or believe that he should have been rehabilitated (in some hypothetical world where he didn't commit suicide). He ranks as one of the worst humanity has to offer, and there are many forms of punishment both cruel and unusual - and all resulting in death - for which he is fit. But an eternity in hell? No, this he does not deserve. Hell alone is sufficient reason to call evangelical Christianity a depraved religion. People who raise evangelical children should be subjected to punishment for improperly socializing their offspring, if you ask me. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted June 9, 2014 Super Moderator Share Posted June 9, 2014 Don't forget that all the Jews, Gypsies, and homosexuals Hitler had murdered also ended up in hell, through no fault of their own. From the fires of Hitler to the fires of hell. I wonder if they'd even notice the transition. Even as a Christian who awed at God's just revenge, I used to ask myself this. As Thackerie observed, even Hitler didn't kill sufficiently many Jews to go to eternal hell. No one who does finite evil can merit infinite vengeance exacted upon himself. So I would reply to any Calvinists in the room that no, deep down I don't want Hitler to go to hell. That's the problem with a binary justice system: nobody is deserving of either fate that can be meted out. Of course I don't feel sympathetic for Hitler or believe that he should have been rehabilitated (in some hypothetical world where he didn't commit suicide). He ranks as one of the worst humanity has to offer, and there are many forms of punishment both cruel and unusual - and all resulting in death - for which he is fit. But an eternity in hell? No, this he does not deserve. Hell alone is sufficient reason to call evangelical Christianity a depraved religion. People who raise evangelical children should be subjected to punishment for improperly socializing their offspring, if you ask me. There are only three persons in the history of humanity that I believe have acted in such an atrocious manner as to warrant eternity in hell. There names, respectively, are: Yahweh, Jesus, and The Holy Spirit. The rest of us are just average people trying to get by the best we can with what we have to work with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ousian Posted June 10, 2014 Share Posted June 10, 2014 Sacrificing one person for the actions of another makes even less sense. The entire story is illogical, once you think about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gamecock1973 Posted June 10, 2014 Share Posted June 10, 2014 Hell was created by people to satisfy the very HUMAN need for vengeance, and to address the obvious injustices in this world. God is clearly not interested in fairness and justice here and now, which caused some serious problems because the earliest books of the Bible god makes lots of pronouncements that he will literally (not spiritually) bless those who are faithful and follow him, and those who do evil will be punished and cursed. This is where the health, wealth, and prosperity gospel preachers get their material. But that is clearly not reality in the world we live in. Good, faithful people often suffer and do not prosper while true assholes often become wealthy and successful. Since god is not doing jack shit in the area of justice now, an extensive theology of heaven and hell had to be created so that these promises could be deferred to the afterlife (where, conveniently no one actually can know if god is doing anything either!). Making hell be ETERNAL suffering just satiates the most base animal desires to see one's enemy suffer. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orbit Posted June 10, 2014 Share Posted June 10, 2014 Hell was also created for social control. The only way to keep people in line, the elites thought, was to scare them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranger26 Posted June 10, 2014 Author Share Posted June 10, 2014 if God is real and Hell is real, i don't want to worship that God. As i am still unsure about my beliefs, i often clinge to the idea of a God, but as soon as I make him Christian, i think of the idea of hell and cannot make myself worship and accept him. I can't say i am ready to reject my believes all together, but i just can't accept a god who would subject his sons and daughters to this fate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cianna200 Posted June 11, 2014 Share Posted June 11, 2014 Punishment that goes on and on without end is remarkably cruel, not just. How can any logical person even say that it is fair/just/holy/righteous; that's psychotic! As I like to say If you believe that love allows eternal suffering, than you reject love all together. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
francesco Posted June 11, 2014 Share Posted June 11, 2014 carefull, you cannot put christian and logic in the same sentences Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cianna200 Posted June 11, 2014 Share Posted June 11, 2014 carefull, you cannot put christian and logic in the same sentences Lol, you couldn't be more right! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShackledNoMore Posted June 12, 2014 Share Posted June 12, 2014 The reasoning is ironic, isn't it? Hitler would not deserve hell for genocide because of his deathbed remorse and conversion, yet some philanthropist who just wanked off or something would. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bfuddled Posted June 13, 2014 Share Posted June 13, 2014 YES to all the responses on this thread. When I became a parent, I felt like I understood much more fully God's love for us and how he would view us. My kids are my everything and I would do anything for them. It helped me to see God much as a father and me as his child in order to understand how he supposedly felt about me. I love my kids no matter what and discipline them for their own good, so it just "made sense" to me that God would see me in much the same light, only 1000000x better because he's so "Godly". It wasn't until my deconversion that I woke up and realized how fucked up this analogy is when you apply it to hell. If I, as a HUMAN would never damn my child to eternal torment, no matter what their "sin" was, how monsterous is it that our heavenly "Father" will condemn billions of people to suffer FOREVER based solely on ONE decision that they "got wrong"?!? What kind of father is that?! Definitely not one I want to worship. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisdownunder Posted June 14, 2014 Share Posted June 14, 2014 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest afireinside Posted June 15, 2014 Share Posted June 15, 2014 Dahmer is in Heaven Gandhi is in Hell 'nuff said. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neverlandrut Posted June 15, 2014 Share Posted June 15, 2014 I actually stopped believing in hell as a literal place before I deconverted. I researched It in the bible and found that it's really hard to make a biblical case for a literal, eternal hell. Most of the words for hell in the original languages meant "the grave." Nothing more or less. There is some poetic description of it but no real mythology. The word Jesus used was a literal place in Jerusalem, the valley of Hinom. It was the city garbage dump where they burned the refuse, where the fire never dies and there is weeping and nashing of teeth (dogs fought over scraps there). Jesus talked about hell in his parables and the in the sermon on the mount. Since he was a parable teacher, it is highly unlikely he used the word to describe a literal place in the afterlife. The only time Jesus talks about paradise and hell as places after death is in the parable of the rich man and Lazerus. Interestingly, this story has nothing to do with belief! It'll all about social justice, how you treat the poor. Other scriptures which talk about "eternal punishment" don't add up. The original words for "eternal" don't mean forever. They mean an undetermined amount/period of time. There are many versus where the word normally translated "eternal" is translated differently because it wouldn't make sense. The scripture might say "He will send them away into 'eternal' punishment until I redeem them and bring them back." Many versus read like that, so it's clear that 'eternal' doesn't mean what we usually think. I saw as a Christian that god's love and mercy cannot be reconciled with the idea that he would send anyone to an eternal firey torment for simply not believing the right thing. Not only would that be unjust, but it would be the epitome of injustice. When the bible talks about judgment, it's always talking about people being judged according to "the deeds done in the flesh." Never our beliefs. So Christians don't really have a solid basis for the hell doctrine even in their own scriptures. It's mostly a conglomeration of myths from other religions and using them to interpret "hell" in scripture, not to mention a convenient envangelism scare tactic. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neverlandrut Posted June 15, 2014 Share Posted June 15, 2014 carefull, you cannot put christian and logic in the same sentences Yep! Mutually exclusive concepts. Joyce Meyers says that logic will only confuse you. So quit trying to reason it out and have faith in God. What an idea!! If I just quit thinking and accept everything I'm taught in church and by the bible without question, I'll be Ooookaaay! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisdownunder Posted June 15, 2014 Share Posted June 15, 2014 The new testament can't even get the concept of hell straight. Revelation 20:15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire. 2 Peter 2:17 These people are springs without water and mists driven by a storm. Blackest darkness is reserved for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neverlandrut Posted June 15, 2014 Share Posted June 15, 2014 I've heard pastors excuse the hell thing by saying god doesn't send people there, that they hoes to go there due to their unbelief. There is so much wrong with this idea it's hard to cover it all. 1) the bible does not support this. "...Fear god whom after he has killed the body has the power to cast into hell." People who's names are not found written in the book of life are cast into the lake of fire. All the scriptures about hell as punishment clearly paint a picture of god putting people there. If god is all powerful and all knowing, then absolutely nothing happens that is not his direct intention and that he did not directly cause. 2) Who in their right mind would actually chose to go to such a place? If life choices were really that simple, it should be a given that people would chose not to go to hell. It wouldn't even be a choice. I admit that my second point is more of an emotional plea. Human nature is not as clear cut as that. 3) As established above, the idea of sending people to an eternal burning torment for finite crimes in life is not only unjust and cruel, it is the absolute peak of injustice and cruelty. No such god could possibly be loving. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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