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Goodbye Jesus

So Much Truth In This Image...


SilentLoner

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But are "true Muslims" (however you define that) better than "true Christians" (however you define that)?  There are undoubtedly many kind and just Muslims in the world-- but there is no such thing as a "pure" or "undefiled" Islam IMO.

 

You can go back to the life of Mohammed or the Koran if you want-- it's not all peace, kindness, and justice there either.  Wife-beating, oppression of unbelievers, threatening people with gruesome tortures, holy war, belief in "jinn," are all part of the Koran.  Following Islamic law is not always a good thing (to say the least) IMO...

 

From Sura 9: Attitudes toward non-believers

“Believers, do not befriend your fathers or your brothers if they choose unbelief in preference to faith.  Wrongdoers are those that befriend them.” 

 

From Sura 22:  Tortures in hell

“Garments of fire have been prepared for the unbelievers.  Scalding water shall be poured upon their heads, melting their skins and that which is in their bellies.  They shall be lashed with rods of iron.  Whenever, in their anguish, they try to escape from Hell, the angels will drag them back, saying: ‘Taste the torment of Hell-fire!’” 

 

From Sura 22: Hang yourself if you doubt Islam

“If anyone thinks that Allah will not give victory to His apostle in this world and in the world to come, let him tie a rope to the ceiling of his house and hang himself.”

 

From Sura 7: Allah predestines men and jinn for hell

“The man whom Allah guides is rightly guided, but he who is led astray by Allah shall surely be lost.  We have predestined for Hell many jinn and many men.” 

 

Sura 66: Make war on unbelievers

"Prophet, make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal sternly with them.”

Sura 4: Men should beat disobedient women

“Men have authority over women because Allah made the one superior to the other, and because they spend their wealth to maintain them.  Good women are obedient.  They guard their unseen parts because Allah has guarded them.  As for those from whom you fear disobedience, admonish them and send them to beds apart and beat them.  Then if they obey you, take no further action against them.  Allah is high, supreme.”  

The apologists and politically correct will simply ignore those parts of the Koran. They will compare/justify it against the Bible. They will say the majority of Muslims do not follow such commands. Unfortunately, too many Muslims do not ignore those commands from Allah.

 

I got lots of issues with Islam, more than with Christianity these days. Its one of the evils of this worlds that still needs to be addressed and fought against (i am not implying war). But women, people of other faiths, and gays are denied basic human right  and must fear for their lives in many Muslim countries.

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Islam is kind of like a recycling of what Christianity was not too long ago. It almost seems like there needs to be some sort of fundamentalist control freak crap going on… new label, same shit.

 

Wonder what the next incarnation will be...

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Nuance? It's plainly written words that are clearly followed by a not insignificant number of believers. How does nuance come into it?

there are over a billion people who call themselves Muslim, most of which so because they were born into it. Are they all somehow responsible for the bad players and the bad teachings that are only adhered to by a few? Most of the ones I've met live pretty secular lives. Just like most American xians. Others I've met have been kind and non violent. Why lump them all with one narrow view? It makes no sense to me and borders on racism as their religious identity is as much a part of who they are as their race or place of birth.

 

none of this excuses the stupidity of the Muslim belief system, it simply acknowledges a complex world where not everyone was lucky enough to be born into a secular society.

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Guest ninurta

But are "true Muslims" (however you define that) better than "true Christians" (however you define that)?  There are undoubtedly many kind and just Muslims in the world-- but there is no such thing as a "pure" or "undefiled" Islam IMO.

 

You can go back to the life of Mohammed or the Koran if you want-- it's not all peace, kindness, and justice there either.  Wife-beating, oppression of unbelievers, threatening people with gruesome tortures, holy war, belief in "jinn," are all part of the Koran.  Following Islamic law is not always a good thing (to say the least) IMO...

 

From Sura 9: Attitudes toward non-believers

“Believers, do not befriend your fathers or your brothers if they choose unbelief in preference to faith.  Wrongdoers are those that befriend them.” 

 

From Sura 22:  Tortures in hell

“Garments of fire have been prepared for the unbelievers.  Scalding water shall be poured upon their heads, melting their skins and that which is in their bellies.  They shall be lashed with rods of iron.  Whenever, in their anguish, they try to escape from Hell, the angels will drag them back, saying: ‘Taste the torment of Hell-fire!’” 

 

From Sura 22: Hang yourself if you doubt Islam

“If anyone thinks that Allah will not give victory to His apostle in this world and in the world to come, let him tie a rope to the ceiling of his house and hang himself.”

 

From Sura 7: Allah predestines men and jinn for hell

“The man whom Allah guides is rightly guided, but he who is led astray by Allah shall surely be lost.  We have predestined for Hell many jinn and many men.” 

 

Sura 66: Make war on unbelievers

"Prophet, make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal sternly with them.”

 

Sura 4: Men should beat disobedient women

“Men have authority over women because Allah made the one superior to the other, and because they spend their wealth to maintain them.  Good women are obedient.  They guard their unseen parts because Allah has guarded them.  As for those from whom you fear disobedience, admonish them and send them to beds apart and beat them.  Then if they obey you, take no further action against them.  Allah is high, supreme.”  

Except, most muslims you'll encounter will only say they support most of the teachings when asked, because they're not allowed to say otherwise. Though in practice, they hardly practice it. It's also against islam to make friends with nonbelievers, but they make friends with nonbelievers, some of the best most loyal friends I've ever had were muslims, and some muslim women!

 

For what its worth, my one friend lives in north africa. When I said that we need to teach parts of the muslim world to be less ignorant, that was a near direct quote from her. She lives in a country where there is free education for both males and females. Also interesting, she and many other muslim online friends that I've confirmed were real people, also dated, which is also "by the books" against islam. Things aren't always as bad as they seem.

 

Also, that same friend accepted me for being bi and trans since a time when I wasn't even out to my parents. She thought it was weird but it wasn't her way, she left me alone about it. Honestly, there are islamic parts of Lebanon and Iran that "overlook" LGBT folks. So this isn't as black and white as you people make it out to be.

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I have muslim friends..  quite a few. However, like christianity, it isn't the (average, moderate) PEOPLE that is the problem, it is the doctrine - which opens the way to hatred and bigotry.

 

The Bible (Torah too) and the Koran have terrible, hateful and barbaric doctrines. This is the problem.

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Are they all somehow responsible for the bad players and the bad teachings that are only adhered to by a few?

 

Did I say that? No. What I did say is that the "bad teachings" are an inherent part of the religion and far too many followers act upon them even today. Perhaps in a few hundred years the icky parts of the Koran will be ignored or explained away by those who still wish to identify as Muslim for whatever reasons; perhaps it will be much like the evolution of Christianity. As for now, a significant chunk of Islam remains in the Dark Ages.

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Guest ninurta

 

Are they all somehow responsible for the bad players and the bad teachings that are only adhered to by a few?

 

Did I say that? No. What I did say is that the "bad teachings" are an inherent part of the religion and far too many followers act upon them even today. Perhaps in a few hundred years the icky parts of the Koran will be ignored or explained away by those who still wish to identify as Muslim for whatever reasons; perhaps it will be much like the evolution of Christianity. As for now, a significant chunk of Islam remains in the Dark Ages.

 

A significant chunk of "Islam" or "muslims"? Because "Islam" doesn't exist as a physical entity, both it and "Dark Ages" are abstracts. Though yeah, alot of muslims live in the dark ages, a loud minority at that. That is a bad thing, and nobody will deny that psychopathic muslims from more backwaters and wartorn countries are highly likely to become terrorists.

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A significant chunk of "Islam" or "muslims"?

Both. The book the religion is based upon and the Imams exhorting followers to beat their wives, kill the infidel, etc. and the people who take this all in and act upon it are inseparable. The religion is downright barbaric in many instances and the societies that embrace the religion on a large scale are (surprise) also barbaric. The root and history of Christianity are no better but the people who embrace that religion have themselves evolved and in the process, the religion has evolved. At least we are past the Inquisition and wholesale witch burnings.

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Ninurta,

 

I'd be very interested in your honest opinion of this site... http://www.islam-guide.com/ ...and the book it's based on.

 

Do you find the information given in the 'Scientific Miracles' section to be trustworthy, compelling arguments for the truth of Islam?

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

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Guest ninurta

Ninurta,

 

I'd be very interested in your honest opinion of this site... http://www.islam-guide.com/ ...and the book it's based on.

 

Do you find the information given in the 'Scientific Miracles' section to be trustworthy, compelling arguments for the truth of Islam?

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

I think that its a futile effort to try to find scientific truth in a holybook of any religion.

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Ninurta,

 

I'd be very interested in your honest opinion of this site... http://www.islam-guide.com/ ...and the book it's based on.

 

Do you find the information given in the 'Scientific Miracles' section to be trustworthy, compelling arguments for the truth of Islam?

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

I think that its a futile effort to try to find scientific truth in a holybook of any religion.

 

 

Ok, I take your point.

 

However, would you mind taking a close look at the science please?

Do you find it to be accurate, reliable and trustworthy?

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

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Guest ninurta

 

 

Ninurta,

 

I'd be very interested in your honest opinion of this site... http://www.islam-guide.com/ ...and the book it's based on.

 

Do you find the information given in the 'Scientific Miracles' section to be trustworthy, compelling arguments for the truth of Islam?

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

I think that its a futile effort to try to find scientific truth in a holybook of any religion.

 

 

Ok, I take your point.

 

However, would you mind taking a close look at the science please?

Do you find it to be accurate, reliable and trustworthy?

 

Obviously. Though you would want to have a muslim prove his or her religion true, not me.

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Ninurta,

 

I'd be very interested in your honest opinion of this site... http://www.islam-guide.com/ ...and the book it's based on.

 

Do you find the information given in the 'Scientific Miracles' section to be trustworthy, compelling arguments for the truth of Islam?

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

I think that its a futile effort to try to find scientific truth in a holybook of any religion.

 

 

Ok, I take your point.

 

However, would you mind taking a close look at the science please?

Do you find it to be accurate, reliable and trustworthy?

 

Obviously. Though you would want to have a muslim prove his or her religion true, not me.

 

 

The science is obviously accurate, reliable and trustworty, Ninurta?

 

Are you really sure about that?

.

.

.

 

Also, my motive for raising this book to your attention has nothing to do with a Muslim proving his or her religion to be true.  

Nope.  My motive has to do with the... so-called ...scientific information in this book.  Years ago I used to be a member of Reggie (the Infidel Guy) Finley's forum and a certain Muslim joined up, using this book to promote Islam to anyone who'd listen.  When I checked the scientific facts I found them to be a mix of out-and-out lies, misrepresentation and disinformation.

 

If the science in this book seems obviously accurate, reliable and trustworthy to you, then I'm sorry Ninurta...

 

... but you've been had!  

 

sad.png

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I'm sorry Ninurta, but it's not only the Christian fundamentalists who spread lies across the 'Net.

 

http://users.wowway.com/~salamradio/Nebula.htm

 

Look convincing, doesn't it?

 

But it's a lie.

 

What the Muslim's running this site have done is to carefully select a false-color image of NGC 6543 (the Cat's Eye nebula) taken by the Hubble space telescope.

 

They've then presented it as if it's a confirmation of something written in the Quran.

 

But, as we can see from this link...

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cat's_Eye_Nebula

 

...that's not the true color of the nebula.

.

.

.

I'm not trying to hurt you or knock you down, Ninurta.

 

I just don't want to see you get hurt by immoral and unscrupulous people, that's all.

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

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I misread what you put, I thought you asked if I trusted science, not the science behind that. Honestly, it's not my position to defend, I'm no muslim.

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BpwkjeuCMAEx-oN.jpg

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I misread what you put, I thought you asked if I trusted science, not the science behind that. Honestly, it's not my position to defend, I'm no muslim.

You've deconverted already???wink.png

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Sura 66: Make war on unbelievers

"Prophet, make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal sternly with them.”

 

Well, ya see, it's because Allah knows that some of them people he created got bad genetics .....

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What Osama Bin Laden did was genuinely against Islam though. Just saying.

 

tbh, no one knows what is the genuine islam, genuine christians, genuine buddha, genuine religion x, etc

The problem is the figure is not there anymore, so that religion has been splitting into many denominations, sects, brotherhood, cults over thousand of years, generations, cultures, locations, etc

 

one can proclaim himself a islam/christian/ buddhist etc and it is ridiculous to think that my version is the most genuine one and person x is not a real islam/christian/buddhist etc

because nobody knows what is the real one

I guess this is true, but I was referring to the Islam as practiced by the vast majority of believers. It actually is quite peaceful when compared to what is always assumed on this board to be the norm. It just seems unjust.

Just because most people do it does not means it's the most genuine one

Is catholic the most genuine christians because they are the largest in number? No

I'm sorry, religion is not democracy, it's democrazy

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I misread what you put, I thought you asked if I trusted science, not the science behind that. Honestly, it's not my position to defend, I'm no muslim.

 

Not a problem, Ninurta.  :)

 

So, from the p.o.v. of a skeptic, would you like to see how this book deliberately distorts the facts or shall I just file this info away for when a Muslim joins this forum?

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

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BAA,

 

Let's hear it.  I would like to know more about this, in case BGT comes back (or you could save it for him).

 

smile.png

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Ok xtify.

 

I'm a spelunker as well as an amateur astronomer, so I'll deal only with those two sections.

 

http://www.islam-guide.com/frm-ch1-1-b.htm

 

The cross-sectional geologic diagrams on this page have been altered and taken out of context, to make it look as if the roots of mountains are peg-shaped.

 

aqwas-ys.jpg Have We not made the earth as a bed, and the mountains as pegs? aqwas-ym.jpg (Quran, 78:6-7)

 

ch1-1-b-img1.jpg

 

Horizontal distance not to scale?

 

Right!  This isn't a real cross-section of a real continent - it's an idealized diagram, intended for educational purposes only.  That's why the horizontal scale isn't on a 1-to-1 basis with the vertical scale.  As it would be if this were a real cross-section of a real continent.  So they've taken a teaching aid an presented it as if it's reality.  IN REALITY, the horizontal distance across a continent, from ocean to ocean, can be thousands of miles.  Meaning that the root of this particular mountain doesn't look at all peg-like, when the horizontal and vertical scales are properly shown.

 

But the next one is an even more blatant lie.

 

ch1-1-b-img2.jpg

 

So the vertical scale runs from 0 to 70?

 

That's 70 ...what?  Miles?  Kilometers?  What?  Once again, we're not told.  But the straight line distance from London, in the British Isles, to Tbilisi, in the Caucasus is... 2,200 miles.  So, if you divide 2,200 by 70 you get 31.42.  This means that the above diagram is horizontally squished by a factor of just over 30 to 1.  Meaning that if it the diagram were shown with the horizontal and vertical scales on a realistic, 1 to 1 basis, these amazing peg-like mountain roots would... vanish!

 

Yep.  Mountains don't have peg-like roots.

What's happening here is that horizontally-compressed diagrams are being shown that just make it look that way.  Or, putting it more simply, they're lying..

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.

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http://www.islam-guide.com/frm-ch1-1-b.htm

 

aqwas-ys.jpg Then He turned to the heaven when it was smoke... aqwas-ym.jpg (Quran, 41:11)

 

ch1-1-c-img1.jpg

 

This is an image of M42, the Orion nebula.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orion_Nebula

 

It's not made out the remnants of any kind of 'smoke'.  It's a cloud of dust and gas, that's just a few hundred million years old.  If it were made from the remnants from the universe's origin, then it'd be 13.8 billion years old.  So the quoted age is billions of years out.  Also, the original material from the hot Big Bang was a superhot plasma of hydrogen, helium and lithium.  

 

Smoke results from the burning of combustible materials in an oxygen atmosphere.

There was no oxygen present in the Big Bang.  Nor was there any combustible material to burn.  So the word 'smoke' is wholly inappropriate - even if it's being used metaphorically.  Science doesn't deal in metaphors, it deals in facts.

 

The source of the Brief Guide to Islam's information about the universe?

http://www.amazon.com/The-Space-Atlas-Heather-Couper/dp/0152005986   Yes. An easy-to-grasp book for grade school kids.  Not exactly reliable and trustworthy science!  They even made a typo.

 

Figure 10: A new star forming out of a cloud of gas and dust (nebula), which is one of the remnants of the ‘smoke’ that was the origin of the whole universe. (The Space Atlas, Heather and Henbest, p. 50.)

 

No.  That's Nigel Henbest and Heather Couper, not Heather and Henbest.

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.

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Anyway, here are two links that help debunk the bogus claims being made by unscrupulous Muslims.

 

 

http://www.answering-islam.org/Quran/Science/index.htm?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

http://infidels.org/library/modern/denis_giron/islamsci.html

 

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I misread what you put, I thought you asked if I trusted science, not the science behind that. Honestly, it's not my position to defend, I'm no muslim.

You've deconverted already???wink.png

 

Was I ever one? ;)

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