How To Tread Carefully Raising My Daughter...

[TheRedneckProfessor]

^^^That's encouraging news, Neverlandrut.

[Storm]

Another piece of advice I would offer is: Don't be afraid of indoctrination.  Children are most likely to do what they see their parents doing rather than what their parents tell them to do.  If your kids see you thinking critically, reading books from different religions, or books written from a skeptical perspective, or having a calm and rational discussion about religion, they are more likely to mimic that behavior.  It may not completely vouchsafe them from indoctrination, but it will help.  It will also open the door for them to ask you questions like, "Why do you not believe in jesus but Mommy does?"  Even the sternest of wive's should not prevent you from answering your child honestly.

 

Lead through example.  Demonstrate to your kids, through your own behavior, the kind of people you would like for them to become.  The best way to instruct your children is to provide a good model for them to follow.

 

My son attended VBS last week because his babysitter was teaching it.  He's been singing a song he learned there about jesus being the lord and savior ever since.  I'm not worried about it because I know that I am instilling critical thinking skills in him; skills I've already seen him employ against my fundie mother and attempts at witnessing by neighborhood kids.  In fact, I had to specifically instruct him not to open his skeptical mouth during his sojourn through VBS because I didn't want him running this babysitter off like he did the last two.

This is great advice. It was exactly what I needed to hear. and I also agree with Neverland's assessment and comment that we shouldn't shield our children from everything. I can say from seeing it myself just how inept and clueless children that are sheltered from the world really are. I definitely do not want that for my daughter. So, I will live by example and help my daughter to see what being a non-Christian is like and show her that we love and care about people in ways that are better than Christians and that we can criticize and question without hurting people. Its a love with no underlying presuppositions or ulterior motive.

Its is true, genuine love. No god needed.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

Storm, I think both you and Neverlandrut are going to do just fine.

[moanareina]

Its is true, genuine love. No god needed.

 

So, I will live by example and help my daughter to see what being a non-Christian is like and show her that we love and care about people in ways that are better than Christians and that we can criticize and question without hurting people. Its a love with no underlying presuppositions or ulterior motive.

 

 

I think you don't need to show her how to love people in better ways than Christians. Just be genuine in your love. I would say that is sufficient. People who try to do things better than others instead of being real and honest usually do worse. And it would already be sufficient for her to see that christians and non christians are able to love equally since christianity thinks it has a patent on love...

[Storm]

 

Its is true, genuine love. No god needed.

 

So, I will live by example and help my daughter to see what being a non-Christian is like and show her that we love and care about people in ways that are better than Christians and that we can criticize and question without hurting people. Its a love with no underlying presuppositions or ulterior motive.

 

 

I think you don't need to show her how to love people in better ways than Christians. Just be genuine in your love. I would say that is sufficient. People who try to do things better than others instead of being real and honest usually do worse. And it would already be sufficient for her to see that christians and non christians are able to love equally since christianity thinks it has a patent on love...

 

I agree with you. It appears that I didn't communicate it well enough. I think the qualifier is the statement "Its a love with no underlying presuppositions or ulterior motive" which, imho, makes it better than Christian love. Just for her to understand the concept that love exists without god is good enough for me. Our relationship began because of god, in the sense that we were both believers when we met, but now the relationship doesn't have to exist with god. That might be something she has a hard time trying to grasp. Maybe not. I suspect that her capacity to love exists beyond the boundaries of "god". I can only hope. Some day I will find out for sure.

[amateur]

I was raised by agnostic parents who took us to church every week, but who always answered our questions honestly with a simple scientific answer that we'd understand, or with "I don't know."  My ex and I took our kids to church every week (my ex was an atheist but super laid-back about it).  Again, if my kids had a question, I'd answer it with a simple answer or "I don't know," and if either said something like, "That story doesn't make sense," I would agree that it did not.

 

I struggled through agnosticism for years, and back and forth, but we're all atheists now.  I think my kids always thought the bible stories were silly.  Good for them!

 

From what I saw in church, and in our extended family, the kids that were raised with "just believe it because the bible is always right" and the feeling that they weren't allowed to question, those kids have all pretty much stayed religious, or had a lot of trouble with deconverting.  Kids that got some real answers and "I don't know"'s seemed to have pretty much dropped religion.  And in my family, hell was never ever emphasized (nor in our rather liberal churches), and I never emphasized it with my kids, so I never had a huge amount of problems when I deconverted with feeling like I was going to go to hell.

 

And definitely what Redneck Professor said:  kids will take heed more of what you do than what you say.  My dad took a community course in comparative religion when we were pretty young, and I remember him talking about how different religions are interesting, and who really knows if any are necessarily true?  He had a book on religions of the world that lived in our house for years after that course.  That made me realize it was ok to be open and question and not be so all-fire sure of everything.

 

And my personal opinion is that it isn't so awful for kids to feel somewhat comfortable in a church setting.  Eventually, they'll be going to friends' weddings, or going to funerals, or just joining a friend for church.  My daughter has a friend who was raised strictly atheist and never attended church, and the first time she ever went as a teenager with a friend she felt incredibly uncomfortable, awkward, and felt like everybody was looking at her.  It's bad enough being a teenager, but at least let kids have a clue as to what to expect in a church service, and how they should act so as not to stand out.

 

Good luck with your daughter!  Raising kids is quite the adventure with no good answers and lots of questions!  When my youngest graduated high school, I breathed a huge sigh of relief that we had all survived the 22 years since we had started, and we all were still talking and got along (even in spite of divorce) and most definitely respect each other.

[Neverlandrut]

Storm, I think both you and Neverlandrut are going to do just fine.

Thanks Professor!

[Storm]

I was raised by agnostic parents who took us to church every week, but who always answered our questions honestly with a simple scientific answer that we'd understand, or with "I don't know."  My ex and I took our kids to church every week (my ex was an atheist but super laid-back about it).  Again, if my kids had a question, I'd answer it with a simple answer or "I don't know," and if either said something like, "That story doesn't make sense," I would agree that it did not.

 

I struggled through agnosticism for years, and back and forth, but we're all atheists now.  I think my kids always thought the bible stories were silly.  Good for them!

 

From what I saw in church, and in our extended family, the kids that were raised with "just believe it because the bible is always right" and the feeling that they weren't allowed to question, those kids have all pretty much stayed religious, or had a lot of trouble with deconverting.  Kids that got some real answers and "I don't know"'s seemed to have pretty much dropped religion.  And in my family, hell was never ever emphasized (nor in our rather liberal churches), and I never emphasized it with my kids, so I never had a huge amount of problems when I deconverted with feeling like I was going to go to hell.

 

And definitely what Redneck Professor said:  kids will take heed more of what you do than what you say.  My dad took a community course in comparative religion when we were pretty young, and I remember him talking about how different religions are interesting, and who really knows if any are necessarily true?  He had a book on religions of the world that lived in our house for years after that course.  That made me realize it was ok to be open and question and not be so all-fire sure of everything.

 

And my personal opinion is that it isn't so awful for kids to feel somewhat comfortable in a church setting.  Eventually, they'll be going to friends' weddings, or going to funerals, or just joining a friend for church.  My daughter has a friend who was raised strictly atheist and never attended church, and the first time she ever went as a teenager with a friend she felt incredibly uncomfortable, awkward, and felt like everybody was looking at her.  It's bad enough being a teenager, but at least let kids have a clue as to what to expect in a church service, and how they should act so as not to stand out.

 

Good luck with your daughter!  Raising kids is quite the adventure with no good answers and lots of questions!  When my youngest graduated high school, I breathed a huge sigh of relief that we had all survived the 22 years since we had started, and we all were still talking and got along (even in spite of divorce) and most definitely respect each other.

Looks like you had a good upbringing. Thanks for the advice. I feel a lot better now that I have put this out there. I agree that she should be able to be comfortable at church. If I do a great job at parenting, she should be comfortable in a variety of situations, simply because she should have a good grasp of who she is and what she believes and hopefully, she will also know what she wants. I understand these are lofty goals, but I need to shoot for something. This is my goal.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

I look at raising my son like this:  I've never had a successful career to speak of, never been all that successful in relationships, never succeeded in most of the dreams of my childhood and youth.  The one chance I have to be truly successful at something is in raising my son to be a good, true, happy individual who knows who he is, what he wants, and how to think for himself.  Raising kids requires a lot of energy; raising them right requires a lot more.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

Wow, I can't believe I have forgotten about this until just now:

 

http://parentingbeyondbelief.com/

 

and

 

http://www.amazon.com/Parenting-Beyond-Belief-Raising-Religion/dp/0814474268

 

Both of which are excellent resources for teaching children critical thinking skills.

[Storm]

Wow, I can't believe I have forgotten about this until just now:

 

http://parentingbeyondbelief.com/

 

and

 

http://www.amazon.com/Parenting-Beyond-Belief-Raising-Religion/dp/0814474268

 

Both of which are excellent resources for teaching children critical thinking skills.

I have heard of this book, but haven't pulled the trigger on it. I suspect I will now. Thanks for all the resources you have provided. I feel like I have some tools go move in the right direction.

[TrueFreedom]

I have this one: http://www.amazon.com/Raising-Freethinkers-Practical-Parenting-Beyond/dp/0814410960/ref=pd_bxgy_b_img_y

It's not bad.

[gall]

So, last night, my wife and I were discussing our immediate family, and, with both of us being new parents, we were talking about our daughter. I was trying to explain to my wife that I want my daughter to have every possible chance to succeed in life. I want to give her the ability to explore any areas she might be interested in (like science, art, sports, or whatever) and that I wanted to give her the ability to experience many things while she is growing up so that she can feel free to pick whatever she wants to do when she grows up. She was in agreement that we should do that. But then she tells me this: That it is the most important thing for my wife that our daughter grows up with faith. That she wants the most important thing for her to leave our daughter is a relationship with God. She wants to make sure that we take her to church every week and teach her about God and make sure she trusts in god.

 

Frankly, I am not sure how I am going to fight this battle. I have made it clear to my wife that I do not plan to sugar coat anything and I will tell her the truth regarding everything that I am aware of (it is important to note here that I have not yet come out to my wife or anyone else). Things like the answer to why the sky is blue? (Not "because that's the color god made it!") 

 

This is something I am completely unprepared for. Raising a child is a tough task, in and of itself, but now I am facing the challenge of trying to raise my child in the truth, and to avoid indoctrination into the cult and I have to fight several people at once. Discreetly.

 

My daughter is only 16 months old, so I have plenty of time to come up with a plan, but even now, I am finding that this whole jesus crap thing is going to try my patience and my nerves. A couple of weeks ago, my in-laws (who watch our daughter during the week) said that my daughter can say jesus. So my wife and my father in law spent the next 15 minutes trying to get my daughter to say jesus. It drove me crazy. My wife still does it from time to time. My daughter has yet to say it, but I sure hope she doesn't. But this is the crazy crap I am going to have to deal with for the long haul and I will be facing not only my wife's trying to teach her stuff about god, but my in-laws will be filling her head with garbage every day.

 

Is there any hope for me?

 

I am truly ok if my daughter makes a decision to follow god on her own after weighing her options and beliefs, but I want her to make an educated decision. I am thinking this is probably too much to ask and/or expect. I have become comfortable where I am currently at in the whole deconversion process, but this new thing is really starting to bug me.

 

I know there are others that have been where I am now. Can you help me with any thoughts or ideas?

 

Love is a strange thing. How did it send you down a path to marry a religious person if you are not? No matter what your wife says or does give your daughter the choice. Even if you have to hide it from your wife.

 

She deserves that chance that so many don't get. You pretty much should be required to as a parent teach your children more than one thing and let them make up their own mind. Don't let her trash this kids chance at being a free thinker. Do what you already know in your heart is right. I know you do because you took the time to post here. Do it don't let her subdue alternative ideas just to raise another sheep for the flock.

[Storm]

 

So, last night, my wife and I were discussing our immediate family, and, with both of us being new parents, we were talking about our daughter. I was trying to explain to my wife that I want my daughter to have every possible chance to succeed in life. I want to give her the ability to explore any areas she might be interested in (like science, art, sports, or whatever) and that I wanted to give her the ability to experience many things while she is growing up so that she can feel free to pick whatever she wants to do when she grows up. She was in agreement that we should do that. But then she tells me this: That it is the most important thing for my wife that our daughter grows up with faith. That she wants the most important thing for her to leave our daughter is a relationship with God. She wants to make sure that we take her to church every week and teach her about God and make sure she trusts in god.

 

Frankly, I am not sure how I am going to fight this battle. I have made it clear to my wife that I do not plan to sugar coat anything and I will tell her the truth regarding everything that I am aware of (it is important to note here that I have not yet come out to my wife or anyone else). Things like the answer to why the sky is blue? (Not "because that's the color god made it!") 

 

This is something I am completely unprepared for. Raising a child is a tough task, in and of itself, but now I am facing the challenge of trying to raise my child in the truth, and to avoid indoctrination into the cult and I have to fight several people at once. Discreetly.

 

My daughter is only 16 months old, so I have plenty of time to come up with a plan, but even now, I am finding that this whole jesus crap thing is going to try my patience and my nerves. A couple of weeks ago, my in-laws (who watch our daughter during the week) said that my daughter can say jesus. So my wife and my father in law spent the next 15 minutes trying to get my daughter to say jesus. It drove me crazy. My wife still does it from time to time. My daughter has yet to say it, but I sure hope she doesn't. But this is the crazy crap I am going to have to deal with for the long haul and I will be facing not only my wife's trying to teach her stuff about god, but my in-laws will be filling her head with garbage every day.

 

Is there any hope for me?

 

I am truly ok if my daughter makes a decision to follow god on her own after weighing her options and beliefs, but I want her to make an educated decision. I am thinking this is probably too much to ask and/or expect. I have become comfortable where I am currently at in the whole deconversion process, but this new thing is really starting to bug me.

 

I know there are others that have been where I am now. Can you help me with any thoughts or ideas?

 

Love is a strange thing. How did it send you down a path to marry a religious person if you are not? No matter what your wife says or does give your daughter the choice. Even if you have to hide it from your wife.

 

She deserves that chance that so many don't get. You pretty much should be required to as a parent teach your children more than one thing and let them make up their own mind. Don't let her trash this kids chance at being a free thinker. Do what you already know in your heart is right. I know you do because you took the time to post here. Do it don't let her subdue alternative ideas just to raise another sheep for the flock.

 

My wife and I married before I deconverted. Ironically, when we met, I was the strong Christian and I heavily influenced her to become stronger. Then I started having doubts about things and eventually came to the conclusions I have now that I was essentially duped and believed things that don't make sense. She is now heavily involved in church and doing the things that most Christians would consider her to be a very spiritually strong person. I have dropped out of most things I was involved in, but I do still play on the worship team. otherwise, I just tolerate what I involve myself in.

 

I have definitely learned through this thread that I need to give my daughter every opportunity to see as much as possible in the world. I have to admit that its hard to not try and shelter her from the craziness that is religion, but I would rather her be fully informed rather than ignorant. So I am going to do my best to try and teach her as much as I can so she has those opportunities. I am sure it will be really hard at times. But I'll get there.

[Storm]

So this article appeared in my Facebook feed today and I thought that it shed some good light on parenting our children. its a 10 things list and number 1 was a good one:

 

"Mistake #1: Underestimating CHARACTER. If there's one thing I hope to get right in my children, it's their CORE. Character, moral fiber, an inner compass... these things lay the foundation for a happy, healthy future. They matter more than any report card or trophy ever will.

None of us can force character on our kids, and at age 10 or 15 character won't mean much. Children care about short-term gratification, but we, as parents, know better. We know that what will matter at 25, 30 and 40 is not how far they once threw the football, or whether they made cheerleader, but how they treat others and what they think of themselves. If we want them to build character, confidence, strength and resilience, we need to let them face adversity and experience the pride that follows when they come out stronger on the other side." (bold underline mine)

 

Christianity fails to do this. It teaches judgment and condemnation under the guise of "loving others" and does not teach self worth or value of ourselves in the community. Its all about God and his community and put to death my fleshly things blah, blah, blah. Its funny that now that I look back, it appears that christianity prides itself on character and moral standing, but in reality, it just looks like they have created more problems than they have "solved". I understand that there are exceptions to the rule and there are Christians that treat others well and like they should, and conversely, there are bat shit crazy Christians who spew vitriol and hate wherever they go, but for the majority of Christians, I wonder if they have character, or if the have instilled it in their children. I suspect that this is a good bell curve type scenario. Everyone fits somewhere along the curve. I recall my upbringing and how I was often taught that what I want is not important, but what god wants. We demoralize even our basic needs at times for the perceived "greater good". Is this character? I honestly don't know. I want my kids to have character. Not faith. Not god. Character.

 

I see the value in teaching my daughter the basics of multiple faiths, because, regardless of the crap and stupid parts of each religious belief, therein still lies some fundamental truth about humanity and how to treat others and be a good person. I believe that most religions fail at this because they try to have all the answers and end up just making stuff up trying to figure it all out. Well balanced is a good quality of someone with character. I like it. I hope I can pass it on to my daughter.

[amateur]

I look at raising my son like this:  I've never had a successful career to speak of, never been all that successful in relationships, never succeeded in most of the dreams of my childhood and youth.  The one chance I have to be truly successful at something is in raising my son to be a good, true, happy individual who knows who he is, what he wants, and how to think for himself.  Raising kids requires a lot of energy; raising them right requires a lot more.

Amen! 

I love my kids, and raising them was the hardest most rewarding thing I ever did (with a divorce thrown in the middle and maintaining a good relationship with their dad).  Now they are grown, I can say that I feel truly happy over all the hard work we ALL put in!

[Leo]

RAmen to that!