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What Kind Of God Would Condemn People To Eternal Torment? - My Rebuttal


themonkeyman
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Hey Folks,

 

I was looking on Answering Gensis website the other day to find out how christians wriggle out of this one.  So I decided to write my view on their interpretation.

 

See: https://answersingenesis.org/who-is-god/god-is-good/what-kind-of-god-would-condemn-people-to-eternal-torment/

 

How can you believe in a God who would condemn people to suffer the torments of hell eternally? I have been asked this question many times and, if you are a Christian, you probably have too. If you haven’t, you would do well to get working on an answer because the question may not be too far off. Hell is no laughing matter, despite cartoons and lampoons to the contrary. In all the world, in all eternity, there are few matters weightier than this one, and to every man and woman there is no issue more urgent.

You’re Asking the Wrong Question

How can you believe in a God who would condemn people to suffer the torments of hell eternally? I reply with a question of my own: “How can you believe in a God who would not?”

Because based on your premise the Bible says clearly that God is supposed to be all loving so how come you do not use the God given human nature you have and realise that why would God bother creating us to ultimately see us suffer.

To ask the first question is to fundamentally misunderstand the very nature of God; it is to re-form God in the image of man, because here’s the thing: If you want a God who is good—truly good—and if you want a God who is just and holy, then you must have this God, this God who condemns people to suffer the eternal torments of hell. You cannot have the God you want unless there is a hell.

You cannot have a God who is all-knowing and all-powerful and so very good. God’s goodness doesn’t negate eternal punishment in hell; it demands it.

Actually you are wrong – You are saying that God needs justice but where is the Justice in believing in Jesus or going to hell.  Your premise means that whoever believes in Jesus can commit whatever crime against an unsaved person and still never have punishment.  That is Injustice,  Further Jesus took the wrath of God which means that God unfairly laid the blame on Jesus?

Scripture Is Clear About Hell

IF YOU WANT A GOD WHO IS GOOD—TRULY GOOD—AND IF YOU WANT A GOD WHO IS JUST AND HOLY, THEN YOU MUST HAVE THIS GOD, THIS GOD WHO CONDEMNS PEOPLE TO SUFFER THE ETERNAL TORMENTS OF HELL.

Pretty sure scripture does not say that

On what basis can I so strongly and confidently assert the necessity and existence of eternal, conscious torment in hell, even if my heart naturally cries out in rebellion against the thought? Only because God’s Word is clear on the matter.

What version of Gods word is clear?  If you read some translations such as those used by the SDA you would find hell does not exist.  Infact many Christians don’t believe in Hell so how is it at all clear?

 

The Bible describes hell as a place where God pours out His wrath on people who have been created in His image (Matthew 10:2825:46Revelation 14:10–11;20:10–15). God the Father has appointed His Son to be the eternal Judge who will condemn people to hell (Matthew 25:31–3425:41Acts 10:42).

 

God appointed his son which oddly enough is not spoken of in the OT – You are using NT works to back up Jesus when infact if you want to make his case you would be better using the OT.  E.g. the things that people used to work out if he was actually God or not!

 

This is not momentary or temporary torture dispensed by Satan or his demons, but eternal torment poured out by God Himself. This punishment will be inflicted upon conscious human beings, people who know who they are, what they were, what they have done (Luke 16:22–31).

 

But what I have done is nothing in considering God never gave me the option to exist – Surely any sane being realising that they could goto eternal hell would rather cease to have existed so who is at fault!  Me the human whom god made so that he knew that we would naturally do evil in his eyes.  If God created us then its by design we turn against him.

 

It is truly, literally impossible to imagine a worse reality than this one. Yet the Bible, the best of books by the best of authors, the perfect book by the most trustworthy of authors, tells us it is so. If this is His judgment, then anything less wouldn’t be worthy of an infinitely holy, just, and good God.

Ok to be fair now you are basing this on absolutely Zero facts,  The bible is not perfect – It is not trustworthy authors and it was not written around the time of Jesus!

Who am I to question God? If this infinitely holy and just God declares that hell exists and asserts that hell must exist,

God never asserted hell existed,  Jesus spoke about Gehenna,  If you want to look at the Rich Man and Lazarus that story is a hyperbole.

then rebellion against His will reveals a failure in my own understanding of justice and goodness. Do I know better than God? Or is it possible that I am far worse than God, infinitely worse, and that I fall woefully short of a complete understanding of God’s goodness and sin’s wickedness? To ask the question is to answer it.

How do you know you are worse than God,  How do you know that you are not more intelligent than him,  If you look at the History of God it seams that he adheres to reason and logic from simple humans.  Heck he even mentions that he regretted making Human kind that says to me he can hardly be without blame.

God’s Eternal Holiness Demands That Hell Be Eternal, Conscious Torment

Why Eternal? The eternal, neverending nature of the sinner’s punishment is directly related to the infinite and eternal nature of God. When you sin against an infinite God—and all sin is primarily oriented toward God—you accrue an infinite debt. This is the only way to explain the Father’s decision not to spare His Son but to deliver Him to suffer in our place (Romans 8:32). An eternal, infinite being was needed to bear the weight of an infinite punishment.

 

Yes an eternal being is needed to remove an eternal sin – However I am but a human and not eternal so why would I be condemned to eternity in hell.  Also – Jesus never wore the weight of eternal punishment as he rose again in 3 days?  So surely you realise yourself you made a fallacy.

 

Why Torment? The torments of hell are directly related to the transcendent holiness of God. Those who face that weight of condemnation have sinned against a God who is truly, purely holy. God’s holiness is unable to tolerate anything or anyone that is unholy; His holiness is like a gag reflex that acts out in wrath against all sin (Romans 1:18) so that on the Cross even Christ had to cry out in His forsakenness, cut off from all that was good and pure and holy (Matthew 27:46).

 

This again presents problems – Firstly God created Sin?  If not where did the concept of God creating beings capable of being evil when he himself is not evil?  It’s not possible.

 

Next if God himself is everywhere he would also need to be in Hell meaning if God is giving us his wrath its better than being away from his presence as we still are with our God?

 

But a bigger question looms – Why can Jesus not save people at the end of the world?  Why can he not just forgive indefinitely.  Surely putting a timelimit on forgiveness is unfair?

 

Why Conscious? Those who have sinned consciously must also bear their punishment consciously. The Bible tells us that we have not been passive in our rebellion against God, but have been willing participants, active rebels. In some mysterious way we were even willing participants in the sin of Adam.

Even you cannot describe how we managed to take the sin of Adam upon ourselves when the entire OT never speaks of such a concept.

 

Justice demands conscious punishment, not mere annihilation of the person or his or her sin.

 

Being just would mean that annihiliation would be a better response than torture – Sure we as humans may sin against an infinite being but if that infinite being does not give us enough information to believe in him then that is a problem.

 

Also by God torturing us for eternity is unreasonable considering I only have an 80 year life span.  Why bother letting me exist at all if he ultimately knows my fate?

 

What clearer example do we have than Jesus Christ who consciously bore God’s wrath against sin? If Christ’s suffering for our sin was conscious, so too will be the suffering of those who bear their own sin. God will not ask less of them than He asked of His Son.

 

If Jesus died an innocent man that shows God is cruel?  If Jesus actually did take Gods wrath upon himself then all Gods wrath is 3 days of actual punishment heck people being burned by nero went through more wrath.

 

And Jesus did not stay dead so it makes even less proof for me to believe that he actually died for my sins.

 

The God every person wants is a God who is good, a God who gives good things to the ones He loves. But to have a God who is good, we must first have a God who is holy. God’s goodness flows out of His holiness. The God of the Bible is a holy God.

 

Where does it say that Goddness Flows out of Holiness what do them words mean to a God who is infinite who is both infinitely holy and infinitely love.  Love and Justice essentially cancel eachother out.  IF you read what the bible says about Love you will find it never takes a record of wrong doings so what is it – Does god punish or not?

 

This attribute of God draws attention to His otherness, His set-apartness, the vast gulf between Creator and creature. It tells us that God must be separated from sin, and it says that He is committed to seeking His own honor. God is unimaginably holy, utterly perfect to the greatest degree and the farthest extent. And because He is holy, He is good.

What a stark contrast we make. We human beings are sinful in body, mind, and spirit—no part of us has escaped or remained undefiled.

Actually God spared Noah / Issac / Joseph / Adam and Eve so please tell me that we have not managed to have relationships with God being sinfull beings.

 

Adam and Eve still talked with God as did Noah / enoch and Abraham so if God is not able to be in the presence of sin how then was he able to talk to these.

 

 

It is only God’s restraining grace that keeps any of us from pursuing our sin to a greater and greater degree, from becoming as utterly and horribly sinful as we could possibly be (James 1:14–15Romans 1:28–328:2). Only the grace of God stands between any one of us and the vilest of sins. We are not this way because God made us this way, but because this is what we have chosen for ourselves (James 1:13–14). No one has forced us into such unholiness, such moral depravity. This is what we have desired and the path we have taken. Our moral freedom has led us to utter moral corruption.

It is this contrast that makes hell a horrible necessity. The holiness of God demands that He remain separate from sin, that those who commit sin must be kept out of His presence. How could such holiness mingle with such impurity? Holiness flees from sin. They are incompatible, irreconcilable. And so sinners must be cast out, and they must be kept out of God’s presence.

 

It would be more reasonable for God to destroy us out of existence and also away from his presence – Pouring wrath on your own creation is unfair!

 

How can you believe in a God who would condemn people to suffer the torments of hell eternally? I have been asked this question many times and, if you are a Christian, you probably have too. If you haven’t, you would do well to get working on an answer because the question may not be too far off. Hell is no laughing matter, despite cartoons and lampoons to the contrary. In all the world, in all eternity, there are few matters weightier than this one, and to every man and woman there is no issue more urgent.

 

You’re Asking the Wrong Question

How can you believe in a God who would condemn people to suffer the torments of hell eternally? I reply with a question of my own: “How can you believe in a God who would not?”

Because based on your premise the Bible says clearly that God is supposed to be all loving so how come you do not use the God given human nature you have and realise that why would God bother creating us to ultimately see us suffer.

To ask the first question is to fundamentally misunderstand the very nature of God; it is to re-form God in the image of man, because here’s the thing: If you want a God who is good—truly good—and if you want a God who is just and holy, then you must have this God, this God who condemns people to suffer the eternal torments of hell. You cannot have the God you want unless there is a hell.

You cannot have a God who is all-knowing and all-powerful and so very good. God’s goodness doesn’t negate eternal punishment in hell; it demands it.

Actually you are wrong – You are saying that God needs justice but where is the Justice in believing in Jesus or going to hell.  Your premise means that whoever believes in Jesus can commit whatever crime against an unsaved person and still never have punishment.  That is Injustice,  Further Jesus took the wrath of God which means that God unfairly laid the blame on Jesus?

Scripture Is Clear About Hell

IF YOU WANT A GOD WHO IS GOOD—TRULY GOOD—AND IF YOU WANT A GOD WHO IS JUST AND HOLY, THEN YOU MUST HAVE THIS GOD, THIS GOD WHO CONDEMNS PEOPLE TO SUFFER THE ETERNAL TORMENTS OF HELL.

Pretty sure scripture does not say that

On what basis can I so strongly and confidently assert the necessity and existence of eternal, conscious torment in hell, even if my heart naturally cries out in rebellion against the thought? Only because God’s Word is clear on the matter.

What version of Gods word is clear?  If you read some translations such as those used by the SDA you would find hell does not exist.  Infact many Christians don’t believe in Hell so how is it at all clear?

 

The Bible describes hell as a place where God pours out His wrath on people who have been created in His image (Matthew 10:2825:46Revelation 14:10–11;20:10–15). God the Father has appointed His Son to be the eternal Judge who will condemn people to hell (Matthew 25:31–3425:41Acts 10:42).

 

God appointed his son which oddly enough is not spoken of in the OT – You are using NT works to back up Jesus when infact if you want to make his case you would be better using the OT.  E.g. the things that people used to work out if he was actually God or not!

 

This is not momentary or temporary torture dispensed by Satan or his demons, but eternal torment poured out by God Himself. This punishment will be inflicted upon conscious human beings, people who know who they are, what they were, what they have done (Luke 16:22–31).

 

But what I have done is nothing in considering God never gave me the option to exist – Surely any sane being realising that they could goto eternal hell would rather cease to have existed so who is at fault!  Me the human whom god made so that he knew that we would naturally do evil in his eyes.  If God created us then its by design we turn against him.

 

It is truly, literally impossible to imagine a worse reality than this one. Yet the Bible, the best of books by the best of authors, the perfect book by the most trustworthy of authors, tells us it is so. If this is His judgment, then anything less wouldn’t be worthy of an infinitely holy, just, and good God.

Ok to be fair now you are basing this on absolutely Zero facts,  The bible is not perfect – It is not trustworthy authors and it was not written around the time of Jesus!

Who am I to question God? If this infinitely holy and just God declares that hell exists and asserts that hell must exist,

God never asserted hell existed,  Jesus spoke about Gehenna,  If you want to look at the Rich Man and Lazarus that story is a hyperbole.

then rebellion against His will reveals a failure in my own understanding of justice and goodness. Do I know better than God? Or is it possible that I am far worse than God, infinitely worse, and that I fall woefully short of a complete understanding of God’s goodness and sin’s wickedness? To ask the question is to answer it.

How do you know you are worse than God,  How do you know that you are not more intelligent than him,  If you look at the History of God it seams that he adheres to reason and logic from simple humans.  Heck he even mentions that he regretted making Human kind that says to me he can hardly be without blame.

God’s Eternal Holiness Demands That Hell Be Eternal, Conscious Torment

Why Eternal? The eternal, neverending nature of the sinner’s punishment is directly related to the infinite and eternal nature of God. When you sin against an infinite God—and all sin is primarily oriented toward God—you accrue an infinite debt. This is the only way to explain the Father’s decision not to spare His Son but to deliver Him to suffer in our place (Romans 8:32). An eternal, infinite being was needed to bear the weight of an infinite punishment.

 

Yes an eternal being is needed to remove an eternal sin – However I am but a human and not eternal so why would I be condemned to eternity in hell.  Also – Jesus never wore the weight of eternal punishment as he rose again in 3 days?  So surely you realise yourself you made a fallacy.

 

Why Torment? The torments of hell are directly related to the transcendent holiness of God. Those who face that weight of condemnation have sinned against a God who is truly, purely holy. God’s holiness is unable to tolerate anything or anyone that is unholy; His holiness is like a gag reflex that acts out in wrath against all sin (Romans 1:18) so that on the Cross even Christ had to cry out in His forsakenness, cut off from all that was good and pure and holy (Matthew 27:46).

 

This again presents problems – Firstly God created Sin?  If not where did the concept of God creating beings capable of being evil when he himself is not evil?  It’s not possible.

 

Next if God himself is everywhere he would also need to be in Hell meaning if God is giving us his wrath its better than being away from his presence as we still are with our God?

 

But a bigger question looms – Why can Jesus not save people at the end of the world?  Why can he not just forgive indefinitely.  Surely putting a timelimit on forgiveness is unfair?

 

Why Conscious? Those who have sinned consciously must also bear their punishment consciously. The Bible tells us that we have not been passive in our rebellion against God, but have been willing participants, active rebels. In some mysterious way we were even willing participants in the sin of Adam.

Even you cannot describe how we managed to take the sin of Adam upon ourselves when the entire OT never speaks of such a concept.

 

Justice demands conscious punishment, not mere annihilation of the person or his or her sin.

 

Being just would mean that annihiliation would be a better response than torture – Sure we as humans may sin against an infinite being but if that infinite being does not give us enough information to believe in him then that is a problem.

 

Also by God torturing us for eternity is unreasonable considering I only have an 80 year life span.  Why bother letting me exist at all if he ultimately knows my fate?

 

What clearer example do we have than Jesus Christ who consciously bore God’s wrath against sin? If Christ’s suffering for our sin was conscious, so too will be the suffering of those who bear their own sin. God will not ask less of them than He asked of His Son.

 

If Jesus died an innocent man that shows God is cruel?  If Jesus actually did take Gods wrath upon himself then all Gods wrath is 3 days of actual punishment heck people being burned by nero went through more wrath.

 

And Jesus did not stay dead so it makes even less proof for me to believe that he actually died for my sins.

 

The God every person wants is a God who is good, a God who gives good things to the ones He loves. But to have a God who is good, we must first have a God who is holy. God’s goodness flows out of His holiness. The God of the Bible is a holy God.

 

Where does it say that Goddness Flows out of Holiness what do them words mean to a God who is infinite who is both infinitely holy and infinitely love.  Love and Justice essentially cancel eachother out.  IF you read what the bible says about Love you will find it never takes a record of wrong doings so what is it – Does god punish or not?

 

This attribute of God draws attention to His otherness, His set-apartness, the vast gulf between Creator and creature. It tells us that God must be separated from sin, and it says that He is committed to seeking His own honor. God is unimaginably holy, utterly perfect to the greatest degree and the farthest extent. And because He is holy, He is good.

What a stark contrast we make. We human beings are sinful in body, mind, and spirit—no part of us has escaped or remained undefiled.

Actually God spared Noah / Issac / Joseph / Adam and Eve so please tell me that we have not managed to have relationships with God being sinfull beings.

 

Adam and Eve still talked with God as did Noah / enoch and Abraham so if God is not able to be in the presence of sin how then was he able to talk to these.

 

 

It is only God’s restraining grace that keeps any of us from pursuing our sin to a greater and greater degree, from becoming as utterly and horribly sinful as we could possibly be (James 1:14–15Romans 1:28–328:2). Only the grace of God stands between any one of us and the vilest of sins. We are not this way because God made us this way, but because this is what we have chosen for ourselves (James 1:13–14). No one has forced us into such unholiness, such moral depravity. This is what we have desired and the path we have taken. Our moral freedom has led us to utter moral corruption.

It is this contrast that makes hell a horrible necessity. The holiness of God demands that He remain separate from sin, that those who commit sin must be kept out of His presence. How could such holiness mingle with such impurity? Holiness flees from sin. They are incompatible, irreconcilable. And so sinners must be cast out, and they must be kept out of God’s presence.

 

It would be more reasonable for God to destroy us out of existence and also away from his presence – Pouring wrath on your own creation is unfair!

 

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I find this apologist's definition of a "totally good god" sickening. It shouldn't matter if this god is infinite or not. If the creations that have sinned do not live infinite lives, then their punishment should not be infinite either. For a god to punish its creations with infinite, conscious torment for finite sins shows that this god is incapable of letting things go and chooses to remain offended for some little thing someone did decades, centuries, or even millenia before.

 

What is even worse is the fact that this "totally good god" required there to be a bloody sacrifice before he could forgive to begin with. How flawed must someone be to require innocent blood to be shed in order to forgive someone (though, if Jesus is actually Yahweh in the flesh, then he wouldn't actually be innocent)? If I am able to forgive people and let go of things they've done to me without requiring a bloody sacrifice or without needing those who've hurt me to be tortured forever, then surely I must be more good than Yahweh.

 

This god is also a hypocrite, because according to the New Testament, humans are required to forgive without repentance and without a need for any sacrifice or torment of the person that hurt them. It's required of us in order for us to live a moral life. Surely this god can not be "totally good" and be a hypocrite at the same time.

 

I liked your rebuttal monkeyman, but I wanted to add a little bit to it.

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I just finished this "Answers in Genesis" article and have now seen the face of God.  Thirty-four years it has taken me to learn what kind of smile is hidden behind the white beard of Yahweh.  O cruel, needless misunderstanding!  O stubborn, self-willed exile from Yahweh's loving breast!  Tears are trickling down my cheek right now.  But it is all right, everything is all right now, the struggle is finished.  I have won the victory over myself.  I love Yahweh.

 

joy-in-affliction-photo.jpg

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Monkeyman, I admire your patience in taking the time and trouble to write this.  I think I would have lost patience with this idiocy well before being able to finish a detailed rebuttal

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Two thumbs up!

Unfortunately, 99% of them will find a way around it.  They are hell bent (no pun intended) on believing and no amount of proof or facts will sway them.

Funny when I was a christian I used to say this about atheists eek.gif

I guess we are pretty much all guilty of when we "know" we are right, that is IT.  BUT of course (we are right) zDuivel7.gif

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This christian certainly sounds psychotic to believe that holiness, goodness and justice demand eternal screams, anguish and misery.

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I don't think the fact that this is supposed to be addressed to Xians justifies circular reasoning. "Hell is good because the bible says so, and because our god is so perfect that whatever he does is perfect and no good god could do otherwise"? I thought he was supposed to be helping Xians come up with answers to skeptics, not convince himself.

 

He starts with the premise that his god is holy, and all "sin" is wrong done against this god, for which he has no evidence. These are important to his argument. He is trying to use some points of the cult to prove another point, in debate against people who don't believe the cult at all. This makes no sense.

 

"In some mysterious way" we were participants in the fall of Adam? Now he's just flailing.

 

He thinks unimaginable pain is okay for other people, while he skips blithely off to paradise because he believed the right things. I can't grasp how anyone could feel this way. This person is a douchenozzle.

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The Catholics I used to hang with interpreted hell to be an eternal state of disappointment in having chosen to be estranged from God.  Whether there was unspeakable torment applied to you, the tenant in hell, by other beings or whatever wasn't really talked about.

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Eternal conscious torment is not clearly taught in the bible. Most words for Hell simply mean "the grave." Sure the writers used poetic description, but that's a far cry from a literal interpretation. Jesus used the word Gehena which means "Valley of Hinom," the city garbage dump of Jerusalem in his day. He used the word in parables, so it's difficult to make a case for a literal eternal hell based on that. Then there's Revalation, and come on; no one takes that book literally. It's also worth pointing out that the words for "eternal" are largely misunderstood as well. Most of the words used for "eternal" mean an unspecified amount of time, implying that there is a limit to this time. There are many versus where the same word is used but it's not translated "eternal," because it wouldn't make sense. They read something like, "The Lord sent them away to "eternal" punishment, until they repent and he restores them."

 

My question is this: If God's holiness and justice demands punishment for wrong doing, I can buy that. We all like the idea of justice. But why ETERNAL conscious torment for finite crimes?? That is NOT justice. It's the epitome of disproportionate punishment and over-kill! What's more, even in the bible, when god declares a punishment on his people, it is always for the purpose of correction. He always eventually restores his people and ends the punishment when they learn the lesson. Even those who weren't his people, such as Sodom, are spoken of in later versus saying that their glory will be restored. Given the prevalence of this theme in the bible, the modern idea of Hell would actually be the exception.

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Eternal torment defies mercy and forgiveness. Even someone who consciously sinned would be under that great sacrifice of Jesus right?

If not, then either:

 

  • God lied about the sacrifice being enough to cover all sin, which means Jesus couldn't be god, the only sacrifice worthy,
  • If god can't be in the presence of sin, then how could he have created hell? How can hell exist if god is omniscient?
  • Eternal torment and suffering would mean that god couldn't truly forgive, something he demands of his lesser-than-him creation.
  • Creating people for the express purpose of damning them to a hell at your discretion ( as one who knows the end from the beginning ) is narcissistic, from a god that demands selflessness, generosity, and charity. I'd be pointing to this concept the next time some fundy starts anti-abortion ranting. Essentially, he has knowingly murdered his children.
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How come finite misdeeds incur infinite debt? That makes no sense. Shit, I can't help my thoughts, and I am probably lesser than god but I keep thinking this is horrifyingly wrong. These might be wrong thoughts, because yada yada yada I am a lesser being and I can't understand shit but then again I can't help my thoughts. I was born this way. I've always been a doubter.

 

So he asserts for some reason that holiness (generic holiness, I am not even sure what that means) demands being separated from sin. For some reason, he asserts that the only way to keep separated from sin is giving sinners eternal conscious torment. My bwain hurts! This makes no sense to me. He just asserts that holiness and perfection cannot be with sin, and the only explanation I can come up here is that god's ego is too big to actually be there for his creation. He is the omnipotent deity that can't stand sin (which he created himself assuming he created us and all and everything) and instead pukes lava everywhere when he is in the vicinity of sin. Instead of maybe correcting his creation, who are by definition created imperfect, he cant stand the imperfection and would rather pour vile hate on it.

 

Am I understanding this correctly? I think my brains dropped at some point during reading this psychopathic babbling.

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It's the whole "Cannot know god because he's so much higher than us" thing. He made us lower, but blames us for being lower. The bible claims Adam and Eve were innocent because they were basically without knowledgeof good and evil (sin), just as god made them. Later on, we are told that we must have knowledge of what sin is (law) in order to be sure not to commit it, even though lack of knowledge of the sin he allows is still sin, which was previously Edenistic.

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But the problem is that if we cannot know God because he is higher than us why would he give us a bible which is said to be directly from his mouth.  Heck I am sure God knowing every human mind in existance could write something that everyone would believe not just 'Some'.

 

Yeah its funny how adam an eve fell to sin when God never said what sin was until Sinai!  So mass genocide of Noah was based upon people doing stuff God didnt want but he never told them such lol.

 

Intrestingly Infinate Love and Infinate Justice cannot co-exist actually God himself cannot exist because as the bible says with all God all things are possible - That says to me he infinately must not exist while also existing (Stateless)  He must be everywhere and knowhere.

 

And where God is supposidly not in hell - Being Infinate means he is as otherwise how can hell exist!

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I feel sick knowing that there are people who are trying to justify eternal torture. Why would anyone want to get their moral guidance from a being who would allow eternal torture in the first place? It's beyond sick!

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RedStar - I expect it's because they don't want the riffraff on their side of the heavenly fence. After all, they're saved...

 

monkeyman - That's a great point. This book is supposed to be so holy, invaluable and the very mind of god. But you can't know him, even though you should live your life according to this book that reveals him so you can be like him. I guess I should be unknowable.

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From this all lies certain facts

 

1. A being of pure and absolute love wouldn't create a place of torment and most certainly wouldn't let it go on forever period, there is no way to twist this around because it is common sense

 

2. If we are all imperfect and capable of sin than god completely understands this and empathises with us, since god is perfect and we are not, he can't blame anyone for making mistakes because he knows that we are mortal and fallible beings.

 

3. Saying god can't stand being in the presence of sin is like saying a father can't stand being in the presence of his dirty child; only people of immaturity and worthy of scorn do this. The father would cleanse his child of filth and dirt out of concern so why not God do the same for us?

 

4. The whole ''God's ways are not our ways'' thing is popular. Being perfect, god can't make mistakes, mistakes mean you did something wrong, so god does not have a big ego like many people. Also eternal hellish punishment suggests god's love as being less than a compassionate and kind human parent. If god created us capable of love, and the bible describes what love is, than the love of god should surpass all human love and understanding about love. There are many people who would never let pain go on without end, is god less loving? Is the created better than the creator?

 

5. Eternity in hell means Satan wins against god, even if it is only one soul, Satan wins this round. God is supposed to always win. Christians believe that Satan will have the vast majority of souls, while only a few make it to heaven, which suggests god really is less powerful than Satan and that god will lose the war and will not get what he wants: Not wanting anyone to perish

 

6. Eternity in hell suggests before we were born we were selected by god to suffer forever and ever since god knows everything about the past, present and future.

Though Christians try to wiggle their way out of this, hellish predestination is sick and evil and the souls doomed to this destiny can forget about calling upon Jesus as lord and savior because they are going to hell anyway

 

7. Eternity in hell should cause anyone to not have children knowing that there is a possibility of going to hell forever with them.

This brings another bloodcurdling problem ( for people to get to heaven without uncertainty, they must die before they reach the age of accountability)

 

8. Eternity in hell produces no purpose or pleasure for god, god stated that he takes no pleasure in the death of wicked people, so hellish eternity means eternal displeasure for an omnipresent and omniscient being. In fact not only does the person in hell suffer forever, god does too.

 

9. Eternity in hell suggests that Jesus failed to save the world by dying for everyone.

Jesus is said to have died in order to free us from sin but hellish eternity shows Jesus' death as being a failure and the whole world still needing a savior.

 

10. Eternity in Hell produces fear and more rejection of Jesus and god, Satan will get the last laugh.

11. If knowing about Jesus puts your spiritual destiny in potential danger, than it's better off not knowing about him. Christians don't realize that they are the ones dooming billions of people who refuse to become christian by revealing Jesus and the bible.

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I just finished this "Answers in Genesis" article and have now seen the face of God.  Thirty-four years it has taken me to learn what kind of smile is hidden behind the white beard of Yahweh.  O cruel, needless misunderstanding!  O stubborn, self-willed exile from Yahweh's loving breast!  Tears are trickling down my cheek right now.  But it is all right, everything is all right now, the struggle is finished.  I have won the victory over myself.  I love Yahweh.

 

joy-in-affliction-photo.jpg

 

Nice.  I just imagined Yahweh's boot stamping on a human face forever.

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Cianna200-

 

Haven't read your full post yet, but you make a great point in number 2 on your list. Hell is irreconcilable with the idea that god is all-loving and all-knowing. As said many times, a loving being would not send people to eternal torment. But also, since god is all-knowing, he created the damned a head of time, knowing they would reject him and be sent to hell. If god knows all, the "un-saved" that never get "saved" are just pawns in his arbitrary game in which he does to people according to his whim! There's no way around it! He created such people explicitly to be tormented for ever and no other ultimate purpose. I understand the idea that a god might have to punish wrong doing, but why eternal torment? That's disproportionate punishment! Why not rehabilitate? If god knows all, and all things are possible with him, then he should no a way to change wicked people's hearts so they don't go to hell. It would be kind and good to do something along those lines. But instead he writes them off as lost causes which means that god's gospel fails! Think about it, if god wants everyone to repent and be saved but only a few are saved in the end, then god fails in the end! Some all powerful god!

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Cianna200-

 

Haven't read your full post yet, but you make a great point in number 2 on your list. Hell is irreconcilable with the idea that god is all-loving and all-knowing. As said many times, a loving being would not send people to eternal torment. But also, since god is all-knowing, he created the damned a head of time, knowing they would reject him and be sent to hell. If god knows all, the "un-saved" that never get "saved" are just pawns in his arbitrary game in which he does to people according to his whim! There's no way around it! He created such people explicitly to be tormented for ever and no other ultimate purpose. I understand the idea that a god might have to punish wrong doing, but why eternal torment? That's disproportionate punishment! Why not rehabilitate? If god knows all, and all things are possible with him, then he should no a way to change wicked people's hearts so they don't go to hell. It would be kind and good to do something along those lines. But instead he writes them off as lost causes which means that god's gospel fails! Think about it, if god wants everyone to repent and be saved but only a few are saved in the end, then god fails in the end! Some all powerful god!

Yes I agree with you that punishment should be used for correction not torture and if God wants everyone to be saved but few are, God is not so perfect, not getting his greatest desire, especially if he can save everyone by saying yes to them after they die and stand before him.
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Sometimes people still throw Parcal's Wager at me and ask me, "What if you're wrong?" Well, on the off chance that there is an all loving god, I would expect that god to love me, and accept me. If I have done wrong that needs correction, I would expect to be corrected, not punished in eternal fire forever. Ultimately, if a loving god does exist, I should be okay either way. A loving god would not punish me for honest skepticism.

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Cianna200-

 

Haven't read your full post yet, but you make a great point in number 2 on your list. Hell is irreconcilable with the idea that god is all-loving and all-knowing. As said many times, a loving being would not send people to eternal torment. But also, since god is all-knowing, he created the damned a head of time, knowing they would reject him and be sent to hell. If god knows all, the "un-saved" that never get "saved" are just pawns in his arbitrary game in which he does to people according to his whim! There's no way around it! He created such people explicitly to be tormented for ever and no other ultimate purpose. I understand the idea that a god might have to punish wrong doing, but why eternal torment? That's disproportionate punishment! Why not rehabilitate? If god knows all, and all things are possible with him, then he should no a way to change wicked people's hearts so they don't go to hell. It would be kind and good to do something along those lines. But instead he writes them off as lost causes which means that god's gospel fails! Think about it, if god wants everyone to repent and be saved but only a few are saved in the end, then god fails in the end! Some all powerful god!

 

Ahh but on my view if he is stateless then in essence God created something he that he probably cannot Un-create.  As the saying goes,  Can God will into existance that God himself cannot remove?

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Sometimes people still throw Parcal's Wager at me and ask me, "What if you're wrong?" Well, on the off chance that there is an all loving god, I would expect that god to love me, and accept me. If I have done wrong that needs correction, I would expect to be corrected, not punished in eternal fire forever. Ultimately, if a loving god does exist, I should be okay either way. A loving god would not punish me for honest skepticism.

 

An honest God would not punish you in any circumstances for eternity but yeah I agree correction - But what do we need to be corrected for because God again is both offended and not offended.  In essence if God is everything then he also must not exist,  Based on Einstens Theory of Special Relativity if God exists then what is the counter agent to him?  aGod?  So for everything God does there would in essence be an inversion?

 

God Creates Heaven += God Not Creates Heaven

 

God himself would be a paradox

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Cianna200-

 

Haven't read your full post yet, but you make a great point in number 2 on your list. Hell is irreconcilable with the idea that god is all-loving and all-knowing. As said many times, a loving being would not send people to eternal torment. But also, since god is all-knowing, he created the damned a head of time, knowing they would reject him and be sent to hell. If god knows all, the "un-saved" that never get "saved" are just pawns in his arbitrary game in which he does to people according to his whim! There's no way around it! He created such people explicitly to be tormented for ever and no other ultimate purpose. I understand the idea that a god might have to punish wrong doing, but why eternal torment? That's disproportionate punishment! Why not rehabilitate? If god knows all, and all things are possible with him, then he should no a way to change wicked people's hearts so they don't go to hell. It would be kind and good to do something along those lines. But instead he writes them off as lost causes which means that god's gospel fails! Think about it, if god wants everyone to repent and be saved but only a few are saved in the end, then god fails in the end! Some all powerful god!

Ahh but on my view if he is stateless then in essence God created something he that he probably cannot Un-create. As the saying goes, Can God will into existance that God himself cannot remove?

Then he is not all-powerful. Most, including myself, find that less than godlike.

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Sometimes people still throw Parcal's Wager at me and ask me, "What if you're wrong?" Well, on the off chance that there is an all loving god, I would expect that god to love me, and accept me. If I have done wrong that needs correction, I would expect to be corrected, not punished in eternal fire forever. Ultimately, if a loving god does exist, I should be okay either way. A loving god would not punish me for honest skepticism.

An honest God would not punish you in any circumstances for eternity but yeah I agree correction - But what do we need to be corrected for because God again is both offended and not offended. In essence if God is everything then he also must not exist, Based on Einstens Theory of Special Relativity if God exists then what is the counter agent to him? aGod? So for everything God does there would in essence be an inversion?

 

God Creates Heaven += God Not Creates Heaven

 

God himself would be a paradox

I absolutely agree! The idea that god is absolute in all qualities, i.e. he is everything, is nothing but a soup of contradictions. A being that is "everything" is illogical. Any attribute considered as an absolute is, by itself, a contradiction. Take the idea that god is all-powerful for example. If god is all powerful, can he build a mountain so big that he cannot move it? Of course god is not all-powerful no matter which way you answer. Some theists are okay with accepting the idea that god is not all-powerful, maybe just the most powerful being there is. But this view of god is so open ended and unclearly defined that it is next to meaningless. It's also unsatisfying because it is always possible to imagine a being slightly more powerful. The next question might be, what else can god not do?

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