Attitudes ...

[RankStranger]

There seems to be a conscious effort on the part of some males to wipe self labeled "feminists" off the boards. It's really disconcerting, and only reminds me of the belief system typically held my conservative evangelicals--- that feminists are evil, women deserve their pain due to "original sin", and that women were created for men's disposal. 

 

Disagreement does not equal hate.  Not does it equal a campaign to 'wipe' people off the boards.

 

Fact is we're grownups here and grownups are gonna disagree.  Feminists don't get special immunity because they're cute.  

 

Now sure, I've pretty well given up on having a reasonable conversation with FTNZ- she and I are just having fun at this point.  But there's a reason behind that.  When somebody consistently puts words in peoples' mouths, consistently ignores what people say in favor of her preconceptions, tells people that they're responsible for every problem under the sun and should be legally discriminated against because they have an outty rather than an inny... well that person will lose respect around here.  

 

Sorry- this ain't a women's studies class.  This is a microcosm of the real world where adults get to disagree and say what they think.  

[Fweethawt]

Yeah! YEAH! What Rank said!

 

Now shut up and kiss my outty!

 

Or my inny. Whichever you prefer...

[mymistake]

There seems to be a conscious effort on the part of some males to wipe self labeled "feminists" off the boards. It's really disconcerting, and only reminds me of the belief system typically held my conservative evangelicals--- that feminists are evil, women deserve their pain due to "original sin", and that women were created for men's disposal. 

 

 

Most people are not serious about it.  

[FreeThinkerNZ]

 

There seems to be a conscious effort on the part of some males to wipe self labeled "feminists" off the boards. It's really disconcerting, and only reminds me of the belief system typically held my conservative evangelicals--- that feminists are evil, women deserve their pain due to "original sin", and that women were created for men's disposal. 

 

Disagreement does not equal hate.  Not does it equal a campaign to 'wipe' people off the boards.

 

Fact is we're grownups here and grownups are gonna disagree.  Feminists don't get special immunity because they're cute.  

 

Now sure, I've pretty well given up on having a reasonable conversation with FTNZ- she and I are just having fun at this point.  But there's a reason behind that.  When somebody consistently puts words in peoples' mouths, consistently ignores what people say in favor of her preconceptions, tells people that they're responsible for every problem under the sun and should be legally discriminated against because they have an outty rather than an inny... well that person will lose respect around here.  

 

Sorry- this ain't a women's studies class.  This is a microcosm of the real world where adults get to disagree and say what they think.  

 

What a load of rubbish.  You very clearly said women are not good good at mechanical work, because their brains are different to men's, and you said you think men should be able to get out of paying child support because they can't tell women whether or not to get abortions.  All I'm doing is reminding you of what you have said.

[RankStranger]

 

 

There seems to be a conscious effort on the part of some males to wipe self labeled "feminists" off the boards. It's really disconcerting, and only reminds me of the belief system typically held my conservative evangelicals--- that feminists are evil, women deserve their pain due to "original sin", and that women were created for men's disposal. 

 

Disagreement does not equal hate.  Not does it equal a campaign to 'wipe' people off the boards.

 

Fact is we're grownups here and grownups are gonna disagree.  Feminists don't get special immunity because they're cute.  

 

Now sure, I've pretty well given up on having a reasonable conversation with FTNZ- she and I are just having fun at this point.  But there's a reason behind that.  When somebody consistently puts words in peoples' mouths, consistently ignores what people say in favor of her preconceptions, tells people that they're responsible for every problem under the sun and should be legally discriminated against because they have an outty rather than an inny... well that person will lose respect around here.  

 

Sorry- this ain't a women's studies class.  This is a microcosm of the real world where adults get to disagree and say what they think.  

 

What a load of rubbish.  You very clearly said women are not good good at mechanical work, because their brains are different to men's, and you said you think men should be able to get out of paying child support because they can't tell women whether or not to get abortions.  All I'm doing is reminding you of what you have said.

 

 

Ok, now you're just outright lying.

 

You can't quote me saying anything of the kind.  

[FreeThinkerNZ]

 

 

 

There seems to be a conscious effort on the part of some males to wipe self labeled "feminists" off the boards. It's really disconcerting, and only reminds me of the belief system typically held my conservative evangelicals--- that feminists are evil, women deserve their pain due to "original sin", and that women were created for men's disposal. 

 

Disagreement does not equal hate.  Not does it equal a campaign to 'wipe' people off the boards.

 

Fact is we're grownups here and grownups are gonna disagree.  Feminists don't get special immunity because they're cute.  

 

Now sure, I've pretty well given up on having a reasonable conversation with FTNZ- she and I are just having fun at this point.  But there's a reason behind that.  When somebody consistently puts words in peoples' mouths, consistently ignores what people say in favor of her preconceptions, tells people that they're responsible for every problem under the sun and should be legally discriminated against because they have an outty rather than an inny... well that person will lose respect around here.  

 

Sorry- this ain't a women's studies class.  This is a microcosm of the real world where adults get to disagree and say what they think.  

 

What a load of rubbish.  You very clearly said women are not good good at mechanical work, because their brains are different to men's, and you said you think men should be able to get out of paying child support because they can't tell women whether or not to get abortions.  All I'm doing is reminding you of what you have said.

 

 

Ok, now you're just outright lying.

 

You can't quote me saying anything of the kind.  

 

That is the essence of your argument, that women can choose whether to continue a pregnancy or not, but men can't, so men should be able to get out of child support.  You've said it so many times, I'm not sure which thread to start looking for an example to show.  Anyway, it's pointless debating it further, because you'll just justify your views while falsely accusing me of various things like you did above.  It's pointless to continue.  This thread is about a poem Darklady quoted, not your accusations about me.

[amateur]

I'm a peach!

[mymistake]

I'm a peach!

 

 

Why yes you are.

[RankStranger]

 

 

 

 

There seems to be a conscious effort on the part of some males to wipe self labeled "feminists" off the boards. It's really disconcerting, and only reminds me of the belief system typically held my conservative evangelicals--- that feminists are evil, women deserve their pain due to "original sin", and that women were created for men's disposal. 

 

Disagreement does not equal hate.  Not does it equal a campaign to 'wipe' people off the boards.

 

Fact is we're grownups here and grownups are gonna disagree.  Feminists don't get special immunity because they're cute.  

 

Now sure, I've pretty well given up on having a reasonable conversation with FTNZ- she and I are just having fun at this point.  But there's a reason behind that.  When somebody consistently puts words in peoples' mouths, consistently ignores what people say in favor of her preconceptions, tells people that they're responsible for every problem under the sun and should be legally discriminated against because they have an outty rather than an inny... well that person will lose respect around here.  

 

Sorry- this ain't a women's studies class.  This is a microcosm of the real world where adults get to disagree and say what they think.  

 

What a load of rubbish.  You very clearly said women are not good good at mechanical work, because their brains are different to men's, and you said you think men should be able to get out of paying child support because they can't tell women whether or not to get abortions.  All I'm doing is reminding you of what you have said.

 

 

Ok, now you're just outright lying.

 

You can't quote me saying anything of the kind.  

 

That is the essence of your argument, that women can choose whether to continue a pregnancy or not, but men can't, so men should be able to get out of child support.  You've said it so many times, I'm not sure which thread to start looking for an example to show.  Anyway, it's pointless debating it further, because you'll just justify your views while falsely accusing me of various things like you did above.  It's pointless to continue.  This thread is about a poem Darklady quoted, not your accusations about me.

 

 

Please quote me saying anything even remotely LIKE "because they can't tell women whether or not to get abortions."

 

Or be known as a liar. 

 

Or you could apologize for completely misrepresenting what I said.  Misunderstandings happen.

[mymistake]

 

 

Please quote me saying anything even remotely LIKE "because they can't tell women whether or not to get abortions."

 

Or be known as a liar. 

 

Or you could apologize for completely misrepresenting what I said.  Misunderstandings happen.

 

 

 

Have you been living under a rock?  She played this game with me a couple of months ago.  I will give you three guesses on which choice she made.

[FreeThinkerNZ]

 

 

 

 

 

There seems to be a conscious effort on the part of some males to wipe self labeled "feminists" off the boards. It's really disconcerting, and only reminds me of the belief system typically held my conservative evangelicals--- that feminists are evil, women deserve their pain due to "original sin", and that women were created for men's disposal. 

 

Disagreement does not equal hate.  Not does it equal a campaign to 'wipe' people off the boards.

 

Fact is we're grownups here and grownups are gonna disagree.  Feminists don't get special immunity because they're cute.  

 

Now sure, I've pretty well given up on having a reasonable conversation with FTNZ- she and I are just having fun at this point.  But there's a reason behind that.  When somebody consistently puts words in peoples' mouths, consistently ignores what people say in favor of her preconceptions, tells people that they're responsible for every problem under the sun and should be legally discriminated against because they have an outty rather than an inny... well that person will lose respect around here.  

 

Sorry- this ain't a women's studies class.  This is a microcosm of the real world where adults get to disagree and say what they think.  

 

What a load of rubbish.  You very clearly said women are not good good at mechanical work, because their brains are different to men's, and you said you think men should be able to get out of paying child support because they can't tell women whether or not to get abortions.  All I'm doing is reminding you of what you have said.

 

 

Ok, now you're just outright lying.

 

You can't quote me saying anything of the kind.  

 

That is the essence of your argument, that women can choose whether to continue a pregnancy or not, but men can't, so men should be able to get out of child support.  You've said it so many times, I'm not sure which thread to start looking for an example to show.  Anyway, it's pointless debating it further, because you'll just justify your views while falsely accusing me of various things like you did above.  It's pointless to continue.  This thread is about a poem Darklady quoted, not your accusations about me.

 

 

Please quote me saying anything even remotely LIKE "because they can't tell women whether or not to get abortions."

 

Or be known as a liar. 

 

Or you could apologize for completely misrepresenting what I said.  Misunderstandings happen.

 

Fine, I'll go and find one of the times you've said it then.

[amateur]

 

I'm a peach!

 

 

Why yes you are.

 

Thank you, you cute little plum!

[RankStranger]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Ok, now you're just outright lying.

 

You can't quote me saying anything of the kind.  

 

That is the essence of your argument, that women can choose whether to continue a pregnancy or not, but men can't, so men should be able to get out of child support.  You've said it so many times, I'm not sure which thread to start looking for an example to show.  Anyway, it's pointless debating it further, because you'll just justify your views while falsely accusing me of various things like you did above.  It's pointless to continue.  This thread is about a poem Darklady quoted, not your accusations about me.

 

 

Please quote me saying anything even remotely LIKE "because they can't tell women whether or not to get abortions."

 

Or be known as a liar. 

 

Or you could apologize for completely misrepresenting what I said.  Misunderstandings happen.

 

Fine, I'll go and find one of the times you've said it then.

 

 

Thanks.  I'd appreciate it. 

 

And when you can't find anything even remotely resembling the bolded part, will you apologize?

[RankStranger]

Fine, I'll go and find one of the times you've said it then.

 

 

 

And by the way- please don't waste my time with posts of mine that include nothing remotely LIKE "because they can't tell women whether or not to get abortions."

 

That's the part I take issue with.  And no I don't trust you to be honest- that's why I'm clarifying up front.

[FreeThinkerNZ]

While I'm looking for your words, perhaps you could find proof that I:

 

"tells people that they're responsible for every problem under the sun and should be legally discriminated against because they have an outty rather than an inny"

 

or be called a liar and apologise to me.

[buffettphan]

How 'bout you two PM'ing your back-and-forths until you come up with The Real Answer.  Please. Thanks.  

 

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 

 

Back to:

 

 

Girls are like
apples on trees. The best
ones are at the top of the tree.
The boys don't want to reach for
the good ones because they are afraid
of falling and getting hurt. Instead, they
just get the rotten apples from the ground
that aren't as good, but easy. So the apples
at the top think something is wrong with
them, when in reality, they're amazing.
They just have to wait for the right
boy to come along, the one
who's brave enough to climb all the way
to the top of the tree.

[amateur]

To me, I read those kind of things and disagree and shrug.

 

Everybody's different.  

 

I take the poem as: the rotten apples are the easy girls who sleep around (they are "not as good" but "easy") and the pristine apples at the top are the good girls waiting for someone to pluck them (the sexual imagery is so obvious as to be gaggy).  Girls that do bad things become rotten and fall.  Boys that like the bad girls are lazy and just want to get bad apples off the ground and those boys and girls never get off the ground.  The good boys are "brave" and will climb to the top, the good girls will "wait" patiently.

 

It's simplistic.  It's stereotypical boy/girl behavior (brave vs. waiting).  It's stereotypical "bad girls have sex" and "bad boys are lazy."  It's a morality play in a poem:  girl, if you have sex you will be "rotten" and nobody of value will ever treasure you.  

 

But somebody had to originally pluck that pristine apple off the lower branches, and I'm guessing it was a "good" boy, but boys can get away with that stuff in a way girls can't -- again, a stereotypical idea.

 

If we want to get all xian about it:  who put those easy-to-pluck apples on the lower branches?  Gee, why god did that.  And god kept those pristine apples safely at the top now, didn't he?  Where's that free will?  Hmmm?

 

It's just bad, simplistic poetry.

 

If the author wanted to get beyond stereotypes, they could have acknowledged there is more to life than a few stabs at sexual intimacy at a young age, and that those few stabs would destroy a person for LIFE.  No, it won't (except if one gets AIDS).

 

I think there's a lot to be said for acknowledging that boys and girls need to be raised to be self-sufficient, brave, thoughtful, kind, and to be self-aware enough to know what they want to do with their bodies when and how they wish.  And that boys and girls should be adventuresome, strong, and brave enough to climb up high in trees and enjoy a nice, juicy apple (or two, or three) while sitting at the top and looking out over the view.

[midniterider]

How 'bout you two PM'ing your back-and-forths until you come up with The Real Answer.  Please. Thanks.  

 

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 

 

Back to:

 

 

Girls are like

apples on trees. The best

ones are at the top of the tree.

The boys don't want to reach for

the good ones because they are afraid

of falling and getting hurt. Instead, they

just get the rotten apples from the ground

that aren't as good, but easy. So the apples

at the top think something is wrong with

them, when in reality, they're amazing.

They just have to wait for the right

boy to come along, the one

who's brave enough to climb all the way

to the top of the tree.

 

Sometimes men get tired of climbing the apple tree and just play with their bananas instead. :-)

 

Does this poem claim that the only reason for a woman's existence is to be a man's acquisition? No, it doesnt. It just talks about one of the many aspects of human life: love and companionship. Some people like to read stuff like this. There is a thriving romance novel business. Other people think writings like these are trash. This particular 'poem' bored me. It didn't really spark any anti-female ideas in me. I doubt anyone's gender-self-esteem will be damaged by this work though it could cause some sleepiness.

[midniterider]

To me, I read those kind of things and disagree and shrug.

 

Everybody's different.  

 

I take the poem as: the rotten apples are the easy girls who sleep around (they are "not as good" but "easy") and the pristine apples at the top are the good girls waiting for someone to pluck them (the sexual imagery is so obvious as to be gaggy).  Girls that do bad things become rotten and fall.  Boys that like the bad girls are lazy and just want to get bad apples off the ground and those boys and girls never get off the ground.  The good boys are "brave" and will climb to the top, the good girls will "wait" patiently.

 

It's simplistic.  It's stereotypical boy/girl behavior (brave vs. waiting).  It's stereotypical "bad girls have sex" and "bad boys are lazy."  It's a morality play in a poem:  girl, if you have sex you will be "rotten" and nobody of value will ever treasure you.  

 

But somebody had to originally pluck that pristine apple off the lower branches, and I'm guessing it was a "good" boy, but boys can get away with that stuff in a way girls can't -- again, a stereotypical idea.

 

If we want to get all xian about it:  who put those easy-to-pluck apples on the lower branches?  Gee, why god did that.  And god kept those pristine apples safely at the top now, didn't he?  Where's that free will?  Hmmm?

 

It's just bad, simplistic poetry.

 

If the author wanted to get beyond stereotypes, they could have acknowledged there is more to life than a few stabs at sexual intimacy at a young age, and that those few stabs would destroy a person for LIFE.  No, it won't (except if one gets AIDS).

 

I think there's a lot to be said for acknowledging that boys and girls need to be raised to be self-sufficient, brave, thoughtful, kind, and to be self-aware enough to know what they want to do with their bodies when and how they wish.  And that boys and girls should be adventuresome, strong, and brave enough to climb up high in trees and enjoy a nice, juicy apple (or two, or three) while sitting at the top and looking out over the view.

 

We could improve life if we got past the stereotypes of easy girls being BAD and easy boys being GOOD, though I don't personally condemn either of the sexes for wanting to have sex. It's natural.

 

But now regarding climbing metaphors, it seems one could just shake the tree to make some good apples fall instead of the inherently dangerous activity of climbing trees. Or you could drop by the grocery store... :-)

[RankStranger]

How 'bout you two PM'ing your back-and-forths until you come up with The Real Answer.  Please. Thanks.  

 

 

Fair enough.  I'm even finding me annoying lately.

[buffettphan]

 

 

Fair enough.  I'm even finding me annoying lately.

 

 

Thanks, Rank!

[Margee]

 

 

I'm a peach!

 

 

Why yes you are.

 

Thank you, you cute little plum!

 

I'm a juicy orange...I don't want to be an apple either...

[TrueFreedom]

[amateur]

 

 

 

I'm a peach!

 

 

Why yes you are.

 

Thank you, you cute little plum!

 

I'm a juicy orange...I don't want to be an apple either...

 

Bad pun time!!!!

 

Orange you glad you're not an apple?

 

Welcome to the fruit basket, Margee and TrueFreedom!

[moanareina]

Aaah, want to add something.

 

I hate poems like that because they support all that stereotypical thinking and all.

 

BUT. A poem as many state here does not harm anyone.

 

It only mirrors an already harmed mind. It shows how the one who wrote it thinks and how he wants others to think. The way anyone responds to it, likes it or dislikes it thrives on it, is bored by it is a reflection of his own thinking.

 

So I guess the real interesting discussion would be: Is that poem supporting a thought system or is a thought system producing poems like this. Or is it both.

 

My parent's had and still have very stereotypical mindsets. I once grew my hair when I was about 18 (the only reason I did was so I could go head banging like Axel Rose...or later on Kurt Cobain...) and my dad told me just the day after I decided (without telling anyone) to get a real haircut (one of those weird coincidences that happen sometimes...) that finally my hair had a decent length. My mom always tried me to wear skirts even though I hated them.

So I had a hard time to be myself, to explore my personality and sexuality and all especially when I was still living with them (was actually impossible) but even after that because of my own religious activity and mindset. Now it was not the stories they told me that was damaging. If they told me stereotypical stories but did not believe in them those stories would have been what they where. Stories. It was their thinking that chose those stories that has been harmful and that thinking was a result of their own upbringing, their psyche.

 

Now the way one grew up still impacts ones life and this is when you react sensitive to a poem like this. It tells you something about yourself. Why do you feel the way you do when you read it? Why does it have a hold on you? I think it is good to ask oneself those questions. It helps to unmask your own mindset and get free of the crap that is limiting yourself. And that is when you get to the point where you don't care anymore and when real change happens. Not easy but possible.

 

And now I hope this was not too corny or so...