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Goodbye Jesus

Why C.s. Lewis, Anyhow?


MerryG

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I think Lewis is a talented writer who can connect with his audience by building an easily followed trail and injecting some decent humor where appropriate. Too bad he's shilling for the Dark Side.

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I think Lewis is a talented writer who can connect with his audience by building an easily followed trail and injecting some decent humor where appropriate. Too bad he's shilling for the Dark Side.

 

Exactly. I compare it to the Christian music scene. There are bands that are popular with Christians like Jars of Clay, Third Day, Petra, Newsboys, DC Talk, Steven Curtis Chapman...the Gaithers (sigh). None of them have any broad appeal - they are the John MacArthurs, William Lane Craigs, Hank Hanegraaffs, Ken Hams, Lee Strobels, and Josh McDowells. These are the guys who are talented in a small pond. 

 

C.S. Lewis is like Johnny Cash. 

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Lee Stobel is picking up steam as a popular apologists for Christians to quote. Admittedly, his defense of hell chapter and his "how do we know Jesus is real" chapter of The Case for Faith seem to directly plagiarize Lewis. Of course, it gives Christians ammo to justify "why doesn't God offer salvation after death? By the time you die, if you don't believe in Jesus you're fucked over because you wanted to be fucked over before you died", "why doesn't God send nonbelievers into heaven despite their unbelief? People who disbelieve in God want to live an eternity in hell and it would be rape to force them to live in happyland." "Why doesn't God just destroy nonbelievers? Because letting them live in unbearable agony is more merciful than destroying them because every life is sacred"

 

The Great Divorce and Mere Christianity did not provide these essential answers so my old church made Strobel supplant Lewis. I wonder if the rest of the world would take this new path of "suffering exists because it's part of a plan you cannot comprehend. Starving children in Africa (who go to hell after they die) is all part of his ingenious plan" rather than Lewis' "hell I don't know. Lord/liar lunatic, those nonbelieving bastards choose to go to hell, IDFK about the Caananite genocide." The Case for Faith gives moronic answers that Lewis never attempted and that atheists ask all the time.

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Although I'd agree that the assumption that the gospels are accurate is the biggest problem, the tri-lemma also assumes that people can't be profound or very clever in some areas of thinking but delusional in others.  Human history shows with remarkable frequency how this is a common (if not universal) human problem ...

Good point, Aggie.

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Johnny Cash, I love it!!

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It's also because he invented the most convenient excuse for hell ever. He invented "non-Christians choose to go to hell" in his batshit insane novel "The Great Divorce". His portrayal of members of every other religion as depraved masochists who loved living in pain was quite horrific. His portrayal of heaven as being physically agonizing to unbelievers as an excuse to hell was pretty interesting. I never heard of heaven being a place of suffering. This makes it supposedly impossible for nonbelievers to not suffer.

 

C.S. Lewis did not think that the dividing line between the denizens of heaven and hell was Christian belief.  Instead, it was a willingness to be rehabilitated through correction.  Thus, according to him, there could be Christians who experience "hell" and non-Christians who experience "heaven."  In The Great Divorce, those people who stay in heaven are those people who can tolerate goodness -- regardless of their religious belief.  Those people who experience hell are those who are unrepentant -- regardless of their religion.  Lewis believed that a person's adherence to one religion over another was largely irrelevant.  C.S. Lewis did not believe in a soteriology of justification by faith.  In fact, he didn't even believe in justification.

 

I can tell that you strongly dislike The Great Divorce, but if you read it again anew without preconceptions of what he is saying, you will see that he does not say that nonbelievers will go to hell.  He does not say that believers will go to heaven.  Instead, C.S. Lewis thought that people could be distinguished by their allegiance to Platonic "Goodness" rather than their allegiance to any particular deity, whether that be named Yahweh, Satan, Allah, Thor, etc.  This theme can be found in almost every one of his books if you're looking for it.

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This is kind of surprising because "believe or fry" is supposed to be the principal Christian tenant of any religion. 99% of Christians believe it. Wait a minute, why would Christians respect a guy who betrays their entire ideology? Wouldn't that be heresy that requires burning of the stake? My mom believed that Lewis was God's prophet and proclaimed that every Muslim, Hindu, and Buddhist wants to go to hell because Lewis supposedly said so. She interpreted the book as "non believers choose to go to hell" because that was kind of orthodox. It's also Lee Strobel's interpretation. I'm sorry if I only know Strobel's (mis)quotation from Lewis more than Lewis himself.

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If you want a serious take-down of Lewis, I recommend CS Lewis and the Search for Rational Religion.

 

Also, as an aside, did you know that the His Dark Materials series was crafted as a secular response to the Narnia series? I have not read it personally, but hope to with my kids when they are a bit older.

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Also, as an aside, did you know that the His Dark Materials series was crafted as a secular response to the Narnia series? I have not read it personally, but hope to with my kids when they are a bit older.

 

One of my favorite fantasy series actually. I highly recommend the books, and not just for the anti-religious message. It also contains some of my favorite literary characters of all time such as Lord Asriel and Lee Scoresby. 

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Evaluation of a life lived is a complex thing. If I'm born into abuse, war, poverty and all the bad shit my acceptance of goodness may be interfered with. Human weaknesses or negative experiences can hinder any type of goodness. Surely God in his abundant power can set things straight in an afterlife. Why would we taste of anything supposedly good and recoil into oblivion? When the struggle of a down on your luck life is over, with all it's wounds and callouses would a good God not heal, restore and alleviate us if the adverse effects of a sinful world? God did we choose life? Can we not lay it in your hands to not let cries go unanswered and instead give us a second chance at a life-an eternal life free of evil or hardness of heart and live in goodness regardless of earthly perversion? Why worship a God who trips us up and kicks us for being down?!

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It's also because he invented the most convenient excuse for hell ever. He invented "non-Christians choose to go to hell" in his batshit insane novel "The Great Divorce". His portrayal of members of every other religion as depraved masochists who loved living in pain was quite horrific. His portrayal of heaven as being physically agonizing to unbelievers as an excuse to hell was pretty interesting. I never heard of heaven being a place of suffering. This makes it supposedly impossible for nonbelievers to not suffer.

 

C.S. Lewis did not think that the dividing line between the denizens of heaven and hell was Christian belief.  Instead, it was a willingness to be rehabilitated through correction.  Thus, according to him, there could be Christians who experience "hell" and non-Christians who experience "heaven."  In The Great Divorce, those people who stay in heaven are those people who can tolerate goodness -- regardless of their religious belief.  Those people who experience hell are those who are unrepentant -- regardless of their religion.  Lewis believed that a person's adherence to one religion over another was largely irrelevant.  C.S. Lewis did not believe in a soteriology of justification by faith.  In fact, he didn't even believe in justification.

 

I can tell that you strongly dislike The Great Divorce, but if you read it again anew without preconceptions of what he is saying, you will see that he does not say that nonbelievers will go to hell.  He does not say that believers will go to heaven.  Instead, C.S. Lewis thought that people could be distinguished by their allegiance to Platonic "Goodness" rather than their allegiance to any particular deity, whether that be named Yahweh, Satan, Allah, Thor, etc.  This theme can be found in almost every one of his books if you're looking for it.

 

 

Good insights, Llwellyn.  I'd also remark that Lewis did think everyone would have the chance to accept the Gospel after death.  I also came across these remarks regarding Lewis a while back-- which shows that he has a mixture of beliefs that don't fit neatly into Protestant or Catholic categories.  I have heard Prots, Catholics, and Orthodox speak favorably of him ...

 

On Justification

 

“Christians have often disputed as to whether what leads the Christian home is good actions, of Faith in Christ.  I have no right really to speak on such a difficult question, but it does seem to me like asking which blade in a pair of scissors is necessary.  A serious moral effort is the only thing that will bring you to the point where you throw up the sponge.  Faith in Christ is the only thing to save you from despair at that point: and out of that Faith in Him good actions must inevitably come. …  I am afraid this is the sort of thing we come up against in Christianity.  I am puzzled, but I am not surprised.  You see, we are now trying to understand, and to separate in watertight compartments, what exactly God does and what man does when God and man are working together.”  

 

On Purgatory...

 

"Our souls demand Purgatory, don't they? Would it not break the heart if God said to us, "It is true, my son, that your breath smells and your rags drip with mud and slime, but we are charitable here and no one will upbraid you with these things, nor draw away from you.  Enter into the joy"? Should we not reply, "With submission, sir, and if there is no objection, I'd rather be cleaned first." "It may hurt, you know"-"Even so, sir." I assume the process of purification will normally involve suffering. Partly from tradition; partly . because most real good that has been done me in this life has involved it."

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If they quote C.S. Lewis to you, you should read and quote Bertrand Russell to them. He was an outspoken atheist contemporary author to Lewis.

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C. S. Lewis is probably one of the only Christian apologists to have any sort of name recognition with non-Christians, due to his writing career. Aside from that, I don't know. I always thought his arguments - if they could even be called that - were superficial and incredibly weak. It's really depressing if he is, really "the best they've got" ...

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C. S. Lewis is probably one of the only Christian apologists to have any sort of name recognition with non-Christians, due to his writing career. Aside from that, I don't know. I always thought his arguments - if they could even be called that - were superficial and incredibly weak. It's really depressing if he is, really "the best they've got" ...

I read a few of Lewis' books as a non-Christian.  His writings are replete with logical fallacies and wishful thinking.

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It's just sad that Christianity reduces even brilliant minds like Lewis's to child-like wish fulfillment. It's actually Lewis himself who sounds like the man who thinks he's a poached egg. The brainwash has reduced him to nothing. What is most painful is the realization that if a brilliant mind like Lewis can't see through the charade, what hope is there for the average churchgoer?

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My brother tried to lay a Cs book on me my last visit. They believe it's the magic that will get the message through to the hard cases that left for intellectual reasons. I doubt my brother read it or is capable of understanding it. He's not stupid, but his intelligence lay elsewhere.

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c.s. lewis always seemed to me to be a holycow of christian authors.i stopped reading his books in my early 20s as i found i just didn't agree with certain aspects of his theology.

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I'm surprised no one mentioned it, but one of the reasons Christians like to use Lewis when arguing with Atheists is that Lewis deconverted for a time and was an Atheist. He then returned to the faith all learneded and all that stuff and therefore is the perfect way to argue with Atheists because he was one and saw Jesus was totally legit and wrote a bunch of stuff that should totally convince Atheists about God being all real and shit because it's serious hardcore indisputable proof because he's totally written all these awesome books. He was totally a famous author and told it straight, so unless the Atheist is in denial or too stupid to see the obvious he'd totally agree that it was epic and correct because that shit totally makes all kinds of sense. If Lewis can't convince the unbeliebers then the problem is on their end and it's totally the Atheists fault that they are going to hell.

 

That's the reasons Christians bring him up, cause he totally used to be just like us, but then something happened to his brain and he became totally rational and logical and totally loved God again because reasons that are really obvious because he's such a smart guy who thinks zombie jew happy meal totally makes sense and proved it with glorious writings for God's resume for being Atheist's savior. Because in Narnia God proves you!

 

Edit: I blame Deadpool for that post.

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"Lewis certainly had a more engaging style than most apologists as well as a more merciful dogma."

True Freedom

 

Yeah, but his dogma was all in is head, like his other fictions. bill

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I'm surprised no one mentioned it, but one of the reasons Christians like to use Lewis when arguing with Atheists is that Lewis deconverted for a time and was an Atheist. He then returned to the faith all learneded and all that stuff and therefore is the perfect way to argue with Atheists because he was one and saw Jesus was totally legit and wrote a bunch of stuff that should totally convince Atheists about God being all real and shit because it's serious hardcore indisputable proof because he's totally written all these awesome books. He was totally a famous author and told it straight, so unless the Atheist is in denial or too stupid to see the obvious he'd totally agree that it was epic and correct because that shit totally makes all kinds of sense. If Lewis can't convince the unbeliebers then the problem is on their end and it's totally the Atheists fault that they are going to hell.

 

That's the reasons Christians bring him up, cause he totally used to be just like us, but then something happened to his brain and he became totally rational and logical and totally loved God again because reasons that are really obvious because he's such a smart guy who thinks zombie jew happy meal totally makes sense and proved it with glorious writings for God's resume for being Atheist's savior. Because in Narnia God proves you!

 

Edit: I blame Deadpool for that post.

 

I guess people think that gives Lewis "street cred" or something.  There are a fair number of people out there that make that jump.  I know a real smart guy who was a gifted physics major and is now a fundamentalist pastor.   

 

IMO, Lewis is an example of a truly intelligent person who could use his brain to make a poorly supported idea sound good.  Augustine could do this.  Aquinas could.  Muslim philosophers and Buddhist thinkers can.  Hindus have amazing linguistic and reasoning skills-- as do Jews, Sikhs, Jains, and polytheists.  Cicero wrote a very complex book containing arguments for believing in pagan gods-- he was definitely no dummy.  http://www.amazon.com/Nature-Gods-Oxford-Worlds-Classics/dp/0199540063/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1403560078&sr=1-1&keywords=gods+cicero

 

My conclusion-- even the smartest people are not reliable when they talk about metaphysics.  They can't provide evidence for them outside of mental constructs, brilliant minds disagree, no religion has a monopoly on saints or sinners, and there are thousands upon thousands of options.  How can you prove that a god has forgiven your sins?  or accepted sacrifices?  or hears prayers?  or that the Trinity is accurate?  or that some miraculous story from thousands of years ago halfway around the world is true?  or that there's an afterlife?  

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I think its also interesting to point out that the person who helped him convert was none other than JRR Tolkien, a devout Catholic who wrote another book you may have heard of.

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Lewis' conversion was only a Tolkein gesture. Lewis shunned JRR's denomination for one he said was a disorganised mess or something to that effect and was disappointed in Lewis for not embracing the ways of Catholicism.

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I'm surprised no one mentioned it, but one of the reasons Christians like to use Lewis when arguing with Atheists is that Lewis deconverted for a time and was an Atheist. He then returned to the faith all learneded and all that stuff and therefore is the perfect way to argue with Atheists because he was one and saw Jesus was totally legit and wrote a bunch of stuff that should totally convince Atheists about God being all real and shit because it's serious hardcore indisputable proof because he's totally written all these awesome books. He was totally a famous author and told it straight, so unless the Atheist is in denial or too stupid to see the obvious he'd totally agree that it was epic and correct because that shit totally makes all kinds of sense. If Lewis can't convince the unbeliebers then the problem is on their end and it's totally the Atheists fault that they are going to hell.

 

That's the reasons Christians bring him up, cause he totally used to be just like us, but then something happened to his brain and he became totally rational and logical and totally loved God again because reasons that are really obvious because he's such a smart guy who thinks zombie jew happy meal totally makes sense and proved it with glorious writings for God's resume for being Atheist's savior. Because in Narnia God proves you!

 

Edit: I blame Deadpool for that post.

I guess people think that gives Lewis "street cred" or something. There are a fair number of people out there that make that jump. I know a real smart guy who was a gifted physics major and is now a fundamentalist pastor.

 

IMO, Lewis is an example of a truly intelligent person who could use his brain to make a poorly supported idea sound good. Augustine could do this. Aquinas could. Muslim philosophers and Buddhist thinkers can. Hindus have amazing linguistic and reasoning skills-- as do Jews, Sikhs, Jains, and polytheists. Cicero wrote a very complex book containing arguments for believing in pagan gods-- he was definitely no dummy. http://www.amazon.com/Nature-Gods-Oxford-Worlds-Classics/dp/0199540063/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1403560078&sr=1-1&keywords=gods+cicero

 

My conclusion-- even the smartest people are not reliable when they talk about metaphysics. They can't provide evidence for them outside of mental constructs, brilliant minds disagree, no religion has a monopoly on saints or sinners, and there are thousands upon thousands of options. How can you prove that a god has forgiven your sins? or accepted sacrifices? or hears prayers? or that the Trinity is accurate? or that some miraculous story from thousands of years ago halfway around the world is true? or that there's an afterlife?

Very good point! It boils down to this: no matter how sound an apologist's analogies are, they cannot prove matter-of-fact. Only evidence can do that.

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Lewis' conversion was only a Tolkein gesture. Lewis shunned JRR's denomination for one he said was a disorganised mess or something to that effect and was disappointed in Lewis for not embracing the ways of Catholicism.

 

Tolkien gesture.. nice :lol:

 

Yeah, I also heard JRRT wasn't too keen on Narnia either because it wasn't a 'pure' mythology like his.

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I'm surprised no one mentioned it, but one of the reasons Christians like to use Lewis when arguing with Atheists is that Lewis deconverted for a time and was an Atheist. He then returned to the faith all learneded and all that stuff and therefore is the perfect way to argue with Atheists because he was one and saw Jesus was totally legit and wrote a bunch of stuff that should totally convince Atheists about God being all real and shit because it's serious hardcore indisputable proof because he's totally written all these awesome books. He was totally a famous author and told it straight, so unless the Atheist is in denial or too stupid to see the obvious he'd totally agree that it was epic and correct because that shit totally makes all kinds of sense. If Lewis can't convince the unbeliebers then the problem is on their end and it's totally the Atheists fault that they are going to hell.

 

That's the reasons Christians bring him up, cause he totally used to be just like us, but then something happened to his brain and he became totally rational and logical and totally loved God again because reasons that are really obvious because he's such a smart guy who thinks zombie jew happy meal totally makes sense and proved it with glorious writings for God's resume for being Atheist's savior. Because in Narnia God proves you!

 

Edit: I blame Deadpool for that post.

 

Yes, that's the icing on the cake for the apologists. The idea that Lewis became an atheist but then saw the error of his ways and realized how childish and silly he was not to believe that a cosmic space god was born of a virgin to save mankind from his sins. 

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