Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted June 18, 2014 Super Moderator Share Posted June 18, 2014 His name is not relevant to my point, so I will render it simply as “Naïve”. Naïve was what Ulsterman refer to as a “tyre fitter”; that is, he worked in a tire shop. As it happened, a large truck from a local quarry needed a repair and as Naïve was working on it, the tire (wheel and all) fell and the weight of it crushed his wrist. The doctor who reset the bones told Naïve that if he ever wanted to full use of his hand again, he should be extremely careful and leave his wrist in the splint fitted for it. However, a week or so later, an evangelist came to Naïve’s church with a powerful message of the awesomeness of jesus’ healing virtues. Naïve went forward during the altar call in order to have his wrist prayed for so that he could return to work and begin providing for his family once more. In rapt awe of the presence of god, Naïve slowly removed the splint from his wrist and began moving his hand, slowly at first, then a bit faster, until he was finally flailing it about wildly and proclaiming before the congregation that a miracle had indeed happened. A few days later, in excruciating agony, Naïve returned to the doctor, who X-rayed the wrist and told Naïve that he had done so much damage to his wrist that his recovery would take several months and he would probably never regain full use of his hand. “Sorrow” was a young wife and the mother of a preciously sweet little girl. Unfortunately, Sorrow had leukemia and was slowly dying. Sorrow was the kind of person who always lived for the other people in her life. She didn’t mind dying; but she desperately wanted to be healed so that her daughter wouldn’t have to grow up without a mother, and so that her husband wouldn’t have to face the weary remainder of life alone. The elders laid their hands on her, anointed her with oil, prayed for her healing, and gave her the holy communion, all of which, we are told by scripture, would be answered by god with a miracle. Sorrow died a few days later. I won’t bother to ask why god doesn’t heal people. We already know the answer to that: It just isn’t god’s will. But that is precisely the sticking point I wish to address here. “…and by his stripes, we are healed.” Isaiah 53:5 Based upon this scripture (and its reiteration in the writings of paul), we are invited to believe that jesus was beaten so that he could identify with the pain of sickness, injury, and disease that we all suffer. Further, we are told that those stripes were gladly accepted by jesus in order to provide for our healing. Yet, it’s never his will to heal anyone. Why? What kind of person would take 39 lashes with a cat o’ nine in order to alleviate the suffering of others, only to change his mind afterward? What sort of father would tell his child, “Yeah, I took a brutal beating so that you wouldn’t have to die of cancer, but, well, I’m just not in the mood to treat you”? Why would jesus have gone through the trouble of "earning" those stripes if he knew (omniscience) he would never be willing to put them to good use? How do you, dear christian reader, reconcile the promise of god’s healing power with the suffering god allows in order to “test your faith” or “discipline those he loves”? How do you explain why the promise of jesus’ healing stripes never actually works? Is it because “his ways are not our ways”? Fair enough, but we are willing to heal others every chance we get. Does this mean our compassion is greater than his, that our ways are better than his? Or do you want to tell me that “god has his reasons”? So do we; and when we use our reason, we can easily see that removing pain, suffering, and torture from another, whenever it is in our power to do so, is a lofty and noble aim. What is god’s reason compared to ours? Why would god make a promise and then never deliver? Would you trust a person who did so? If not, are you sure you can trust god? 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pratt Posted June 18, 2014 Share Posted June 18, 2014 New International Version Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding; New Living Translation Trust in the LORD with all your heart; do not depend on your own understanding. English Standard Version Trust in the LORD with all your heart, and do not lean on your own understanding. New American Standard Bible Trust in the LORD with all your heart And do not lean on your own understanding. King James Bible Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. Holman Christian Standard Bible Trust in the LORD with all your heart, and do not rely on your own understanding; International Standard Version Trust in the LORD with all your heart, and do not depend on your own understanding. NET Bible Trust in the LORD with all your heart, and do not rely on your own understanding. Aramaic Bible in Plain English Hope in Lord Jehovah from your whole heart and do not trust upon the wisdom of your soul. GOD'S WORD® Translation Trust the LORD with all your heart, and do not rely on your own understanding. Jubilee Bible 2000 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart and lean not unto thine own understanding. King James 2000 Bible Trust in the LORD with all your heart; and lean not unto your own understanding. American King James Version Trust in the LORD with all your heart; and lean not to your own understanding. American Standard Version Trust in Jehovah with all thy heart, And lean not upon thine own understanding: Douay-Rheims Bible Have confidence in the Lord with all thy heart, and lean not upon thy own prudence. Darby Bible Translation Confide in Jehovah with all thy heart, and lean not unto thine own intelligence; English Revised Version Trust in the LORD with all thine heart, and lean not upon thine own understanding: Webster's Bible Translation Trust in the LORD with all thy heart; and lean not to thy own understanding. World English Bible Trust in Yahweh with all your heart, and don't lean on your own understanding. Young's Literal Translation Trust unto Jehovah with all thy heart, And unto thine own understanding lean not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted June 18, 2014 Author Super Moderator Share Posted June 18, 2014 New International Version Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding; New Living Translation Trust in the LORD with all your heart; do not depend on your own understanding. English Standard Version Trust in the LORD with all your heart, and do not lean on your own understanding. New American Standard Bible Trust in the LORD with all your heart And do not lean on your own understanding. King James Bible Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. Holman Christian Standard Bible Trust in the LORD with all your heart, and do not rely on your own understanding; International Standard Version Trust in the LORD with all your heart, and do not depend on your own understanding. NET Bible Trust in the LORD with all your heart, and do not rely on your own understanding. Aramaic Bible in Plain English Hope in Lord Jehovah from your whole heart and do not trust upon the wisdom of your soul. GOD'S WORD® Translation Trust the LORD with all your heart, and do not rely on your own understanding. Jubilee Bible 2000 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart and lean not unto thine own understanding. King James 2000 Bible Trust in the LORD with all your heart; and lean not unto your own understanding. American King James Version Trust in the LORD with all your heart; and lean not to your own understanding. American Standard Version Trust in Jehovah with all thy heart, And lean not upon thine own understanding: Douay-Rheims Bible Have confidence in the Lord with all thy heart, and lean not upon thy own prudence. Darby Bible Translation Confide in Jehovah with all thy heart, and lean not unto thine own intelligence; English Revised Version Trust in the LORD with all thine heart, and lean not upon thine own understanding: Webster's Bible Translation Trust in the LORD with all thy heart; and lean not to thy own understanding. World English Bible Trust in Yahweh with all your heart, and don't lean on your own understanding. Young's Literal Translation Trust unto Jehovah with all thy heart, And unto thine own understanding lean not. I'm not sure I understand what you're saying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roz Posted June 18, 2014 Share Posted June 18, 2014 You heathens, trust in the lord and don't trust your own understanding. You are nothing without god. Kneel, you worthless scum! KNEEL! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisdownunder Posted June 18, 2014 Share Posted June 18, 2014 His name is not relevant to my point, so I will render it simply as “Naïve”. Naïve was what Ulsterman refer to as a “tyre fitter”; that is, he worked in a tire shop. As it happened, a large truck from a local quarry needed a repair and as Naïve was working on it, the tire (wheel and all) fell and the weight of it crushed his wrist. The doctor who reset the bones told Naïve that if he ever wanted to full use of his hand again, he should be extremely careful and leave his wrist in the splint fitted for it. However, a week or so later, an evangelist came to Naïve’s church with a powerful message of the awesomeness of jesus’ healing virtues. Naïve went forward during the altar call in order to have his wrist prayed for so that he could return to work and begin providing for his family once more. In rapt awe of the presence of god, Naïve slowly removed the splint from his wrist and began moving his hand, slowly at first, then a bit faster, until he was finally flailing it about wildly and proclaiming before the congregation that a miracle had indeed happened. A few days later, in excruciating agony, Naïve returned to the doctor, who X-rayed the wrist and told Naïve that he had done so much damage to his wrist that his recovery would take several months and he would probably never regain full use of his hand. “Sorrow” was a young wife and the mother of a preciously sweet little girl. Unfortunately, Sorrow had leukemia and was slowly dying. Sorrow was the kind of person who always lived for the other people in her life. She didn’t mind dying; but she desperately wanted to be healed so that her daughter wouldn’t have to grow up without a mother, and so that her husband wouldn’t have to face the weary remainder of life alone. The elders laid their hands on her, anointed her with oil, prayed for her healing, and gave her the holy communion, all of which, we are told by scripture, would be answered by god with a miracle. Sorrow died a few days later. I won’t bother to ask why god doesn’t heal people. We already know the answer to that: It just isn’t god’s will. But that is precisely the sticking point I wish to address here. “…and by his stripes, we are healed.” Isaiah 53:5 Based upon this scripture (and its reiteration in the writings of paul), we are invited to believe that jesus was beaten so that he could identify with the pain of sickness, injury, and disease that we all suffer. Further, we are told that those stripes were gladly accepted by jesus in order to provide for our healing. Yet, it’s never his will to heal anyone. Why? What kind of person would take 39 lashes with a cat o’ nine in order to alleviate the suffering of others, only to change his mind afterward? What sort of father would tell his child, “Yeah, I took a brutal beating so that you wouldn’t have to die of cancer, but, well, I’m just not in the mood to treat you”? Why would jesus have gone through the trouble of "earning" those stripes if he knew (omniscience) he would never be willing to put them to good use? How do you, dear christian reader, reconcile the promise of god’s healing power with the suffering god allows in order to “test your faith” or “discipline those he loves”? How do you explain why the promise of jesus’ healing stripes never actually works? Is it because “his ways are not our ways”? Fair enough, but we are willing to heal others every chance we get. Does this mean our compassion is greater than his, that our ways are better than his? Or do you want to tell me that “god has his reasons”? So do we; and when we use our reason, we can easily see that removing pain, suffering, and torture from another, whenever it is in our power to do so, is a lofty and noble aim. What is god’s reason compared to ours? Why would god make a promise and then never deliver? Would you trust a person who did so? If not, are you sure you can trust god? Ask a christian if they fell ill and they had to choose from a scientifically proven cure or their faith in god to heal them, which would they choose. If they say "Faith" then break their arm, then ask them again which do they choose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duderonomy Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 There are no atheists in foxholes. That's why whenever someone is injured on the battlefield, his buddy yells, "Chaplin!" instead of "Medic!" 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wanderinstar Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 In my last five years as a christian i lived and breathed the 'by His stripes you ARE healed'. I had serious physical and mental illnesses that were just not being treated. Despite my hight levels of faith (I really did believe it with my whole heart)I became sicker and sicker until I had a major breakdown and while sorting through the wreckage I began to seriously question my brand of christianity (pentecostal/charismatic) and then christianity as a whole. I never expected to be proven wrong in regard to my faith in general but that is exactly where the trail of evidence (and destruction) led me. This health and wealth gospel is a particularly insidious form of christianiy. People should be held accountable to claiming to have the power to heal, deceiving people and holding them back from seeking proper treatment. It really makes me so angy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
◊ crazyguy123 ◊ Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 New International Version Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding; New Living Translation Trust in the LORD with all your heart; do not depend on your own understanding. English Standard Version Trust in the LORD with all your heart, and do not lean on your own understanding. New American Standard Bible Trust in the LORD with all your heart And do not lean on your own understanding. King James Bible Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. Holman Christian Standard Bible Trust in the LORD with all your heart, and do not rely on your own understanding; International Standard Version Trust in the LORD with all your heart, and do not depend on your own understanding. NET Bible Trust in the LORD with all your heart, and do not rely on your own understanding. Aramaic Bible in Plain English Hope in Lord Jehovah from your whole heart and do not trust upon the wisdom of your soul. GOD'S WORD® Translation Trust the LORD with all your heart, and do not rely on your own understanding. Jubilee Bible 2000 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart and lean not unto thine own understanding. King James 2000 Bible Trust in the LORD with all your heart; and lean not unto your own understanding. American King James Version Trust in the LORD with all your heart; and lean not to your own understanding. American Standard Version Trust in Jehovah with all thy heart, And lean not upon thine own understanding: Douay-Rheims Bible Have confidence in the Lord with all thy heart, and lean not upon thy own prudence. Darby Bible Translation Confide in Jehovah with all thy heart, and lean not unto thine own intelligence; English Revised Version Trust in the LORD with all thine heart, and lean not upon thine own understanding: Webster's Bible Translation Trust in the LORD with all thy heart; and lean not to thy own understanding. World English Bible Trust in Yahweh with all your heart, and don't lean on your own understanding. Young's Literal Translation Trust unto Jehovah with all thy heart, And unto thine own understanding lean not. I'm not sure I understand what you're saying. I think I know what pratt is trying to tell us. The verses in the Bible that say the above statement, each in a different way, sounds a whole lot like, "Don't think for yourself and draw your own conclusions, just believe and have faith, even if you have no good reason to do so." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironhorse Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 “…and by his stripes, we are healed.” Isaiah 53:5 I believe that is true. We are healed spiritually by Christ's atonement. We will be fully healed at the resurrection. I don't believe that this verse is a magic chant one use to claim physical healing in all things. The Bible does not promise us complete physical healing of every disease or affliction in this life. Paul requested three times to be healed physically and his request was not met. (2 Corinthians 12:1-10) The answer: “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” God said no to Paul’s request for healing. Paul did not keep confessing "by his stripes" I’m healed and struggling in faith to make it happen. Paul accepted the Lord's answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ravenstar Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 "Ask and you shall receive"… "Knock and it shall be opened to you"… "This and more shall you do…" Sounds like unqualified promises to me. Haven't seen an OUNCE of evidence for any of it though.. and I was a very sincere christian for a long, long time. There's always excuses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JadedAtheist Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 As a Christian, I understood this to be spiritual healing - not physical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roz Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 If one christian sect teaches that this bible god used this passage in his book to mean physical healing, and another christian sect teaches that the same bible god used the same passage to mean spiritual healing, who is right? Or could it be they're just bullshitting to have the bible mean what they want it to mean? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted June 19, 2014 Author Super Moderator Share Posted June 19, 2014 “…and by his stripes, we are healed.” Isaiah 53:5 I believe that is true. We are healed spiritually by Christ's atonement. We will be fully healed at the resurrection. I don't believe that this verse is a magic chant one use to claim physical healing in all things. The Bible does not promise us complete physical healing of every disease or affliction in this life. Paul requested three times to be healed physically and his request was not met. (2 Corinthians 12:1-10) The answer: “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” God said no to Paul’s request for healing. Paul did not keep confessing "by his stripes" I’m healed and struggling in faith to make it happen. Paul accepted the Lord's answer. The problem with your interpretation, TinPony, is that you are taking the passage out of its context. If we look at the complete passage (in context) we'll see why your interpretation fails. He was wounded for our transgressions Bruised for our iniquities The chastisement of our peace was upon him And by his stripes we are healed. So we can see that the stripes weren't for the spiritual maladies which plague us; it was the task of the wounds and bruises to shore those up. Furthermore, he was chastised in order that we might have peace. Some versions translate this as "surely he bore our sorrows". This means that our spiritual health was taken care of by the wounds and bruises; and our emotional health was dealt with by the chastisement. The process of elimination leaves only our physical health and the stripes. Given, then, it is only reasonable to conclude that the stripes were meant for physical healing. Further, while paul does complain of what he describes as a "thorn in his side", no where does paul or any other new testament writer describe this "thorn" as a physical ailment. It, as much of the rest of the bible, is simply left for us to wonder about. You would like for it to be a physical sickness because that would fit your interpretation. However, that is not what the bible says. You've taken this passage out of context by simply imposing your own interpretation onto it. And yes, god's answer to paul was "No" because that is god's answer to every prayer for healing. So, as you can see, TinPony, you've fallen into the trap of taking scripture out of context. I wouldn't beat yourself up too much about it, though. Apparently, taking scripture out of context is a pretty common thing that people do. The main complaint we get from christians here is that we take things out of context. In fact, there's a member here by the name of Ironhorse who harps on it constantly. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wanderinstar Posted June 20, 2014 Share Posted June 20, 2014 “…and by his stripes, we are healed.” Isaiah 53:5 I believe that is true. We are healed spiritually by Christ's atonement. We will be fully healed at the resurrection. I don't believe that this verse is a magic chant one use to claim physical healing in all things. The Bible does not promise us complete physical healing of every disease or affliction in this life. Paul requested three times to be healed physically and his request was not met. (2 Corinthians 12:1-10) The answer: “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” God said no to Paul’s request for healing. Paul did not keep confessing "by his stripes" I’m healed and struggling in faith to make it happen. Paul accepted the Lord's answer. Yeh, well his grace wasn't sufficient for me either as I almost died by suicide. In my last few years as a christian I didn't follow the health, wealth doctrine anyway, all I wanted was gods strength and comfort but it never came. I wanted to honor and love god with all my heart and my life just got worse and worse until I ended up in treatment and shook off my christian belief under the weight of evidence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pratt Posted June 20, 2014 Share Posted June 20, 2014 ok,, think i can accept the spiritual healing of his strips,,,, kindly explain the fine print of the terms and conditions,,,,,, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagainathiest Posted June 20, 2014 Share Posted June 20, 2014 ok,, think i can accept the spiritual healing of his strips,,,, kindly explain the fine print of the terms and conditions,,,,,, ...while using the correct context. The Prof will be watching, to keep you honest IH. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Storm Posted June 20, 2014 Share Posted June 20, 2014 “…and by his stripes, we are healed.” Isaiah 53:5 I believe that is true. We are healed spiritually by Christ's atonement. We will be fully healed at the resurrection. I don't believe that this verse is a magic chant one use to claim physical healing in all things. The Bible does not promise us complete physical healing of every disease or affliction in this life. Paul requested three times to be healed physically and his request was not met. (2 Corinthians 12:1-10) The answer: “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” God said no to Paul’s request for healing. Paul did not keep confessing "by his stripes" I’m healed and struggling in faith to make it happen. Paul accepted the Lord's answer. WTF! What does being spiritually healed even mean? My spirit is not hearing impaired. My flesh is. I have to wear hearing aids to be able to function and work and support my family and my life. Who the fuck gives a shit if I am spiritually healed? That might be one of the dumbest explanations I have ever heard. I gain nothing by having my spirit healed. How does that even help me in the now? Am I supposed to take comfort in the fact that my spirit can hear now, but I get to suffer for the rest of my days on earth being hearing impaired? This is why I cant be a Christian anymore. Too much stuff that makes no sense and fucks with people's minds. Who has time for it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thought2Much Posted June 20, 2014 Share Posted June 20, 2014 “…and by his stripes, we are healed.” Isaiah 53:5 I believe that is true. We are healed spiritually by Christ's atonement. We will be fully healed at the resurrection. I don't believe that this verse is a magic chant one use to claim physical healing in all things. The Bible does not promise us complete physical healing of every disease or affliction in this life. Paul requested three times to be healed physically and his request was not met. (2 Corinthians 12:1-10) The answer: “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” God said no to Paul’s request for healing. Paul did not keep confessing "by his stripes" I’m healed and struggling in faith to make it happen. Paul accepted the Lord's answer. WTF! What does being spiritually healed even mean? My spirit is not hearing impaired. My flesh is. I have to wear hearing aids to be able to function and work and support my family and my life. Who the fuck gives a shit if I am spiritually healed? That might be one of the dumbest explanations I have ever heard. I gain nothing by having my spirit healed. How does that even help me in the now? Am I supposed to take comfort in the fact that my spirit can hear now, but I get to suffer for the rest of my days on earth being hearing impaired? This is why I cant be a Christian anymore. Too much stuff that makes no sense and fucks with people's minds. Who has time for it? I've had Christians, in all seriousness, try to tell me that God does heal amputees, just not physically. He just makes them happy about their missing limbs, or something. Yeah, I wasn't buying it, either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisdownunder Posted June 20, 2014 Share Posted June 20, 2014 “…and by his stripes, we are healed.” Isaiah 53:5 I believe that is true. We are healed spiritually by Christ's atonement. We will be fully healed at the resurrection. I don't believe that this verse is a magic chant one use to claim physical healing in all things. The Bible does not promise us complete physical healing of every disease or affliction in this life. Paul requested three times to be healed physically and his request was not met. (2 Corinthians 12:1-10) The answer: “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” God said no to Paul’s request for healing. Paul did not keep confessing "by his stripes" I’m healed and struggling in faith to make it happen. Paul accepted the Lord's answer. WTF!What does being spiritually healed even mean? My spirit is not hearing impaired. My flesh is. I have to wear hearing aids to be able to function and work and support my family and my life. Who the fuck gives a shit if I am spiritually healed? That might be one of the dumbest explanations I have ever heard. I gain nothing by having my spirit healed. How does that even help me in the now? Am I supposed to take comfort in the fact that my spirit can hear now, but I get to suffer for the rest of my days on earth being hearing impaired? This is why I cant be a Christian anymore. Too much stuff that makes no sense and fucks with people's minds. Who has time for it? But rusteddonky is full of shit, because the bible god did heal deaf people. So if he is saying that it's really just spiritual healing, then he knows one thing we do. Miraculous physical healings from god do not occur. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted June 20, 2014 Author Super Moderator Share Posted June 20, 2014 This is why I cant be a Christian anymore. Too much stuff that makes no sense and fucks with people's minds. Who has time for it? 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironhorse Posted June 20, 2014 Share Posted June 20, 2014 “…and by his stripes, we are healed.” Isaiah 53:5 I believe that is true. We are healed spiritually by Christ's atonement. We will be fully healed at the resurrection. I don't believe that this verse is a magic chant one use to claim physical healing in all things. The Bible does not promise us complete physical healing of every disease or affliction in this life. Paul requested three times to be healed physically and his request was not met. (2 Corinthians 12:1-10) The answer: “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” God said no to Paul’s request for healing. Paul did not keep confessing "by his stripes" I’m healed and struggling in faith to make it happen. Paul accepted the Lord's answer. The problem with your interpretation, TinPony, is that you are taking the passage out of its context. If we look at the complete passage (in context) we'll see why your interpretation fails. He was wounded for our transgressions Bruised for our iniquities The chastisement of our peace was upon him And by his stripes we are healed. So we can see that the stripes weren't for the spiritual maladies which plague us; it was the task of the wounds and bruises to shore those up. Furthermore, he was chastised in order that we might have peace. Some versions translate this as "surely he bore our sorrows". This means that our spiritual health was taken care of by the wounds and bruises; and our emotional health was dealt with by the chastisement. The process of elimination leaves only our physical health and the stripes. Given, then, it is only reasonable to conclude that the stripes were meant for physical healing. Further, while paul does complain of what he describes as a "thorn in his side", no where does paul or any other new testament writer describe this "thorn" as a physical ailment. It, as much of the rest of the bible, is simply left for us to wonder about. You would like for it to be a physical sickness because that would fit your interpretation. However, that is not what the bible says. You've taken this passage out of context by simply imposing your own interpretation onto it. And yes, god's answer to paul was "No" because that is god's answer to every prayer for healing. So, as you can see, TinPony, you've fallen into the trap of taking scripture out of context. I wouldn't beat yourself up too much about it, though. Apparently, taking scripture out of context is a pretty common thing that people do. The main complaint we get from christians here is that we take things out of context. In fact, there's a member here by the name of Ironhorse who harps on it constantly. I agree that no one knows for sure what Paul's thorn in the flesh was. There have been various theories offered, such as a chronic sickness and bad eyesight. We just don't know because the Bible does not tell us. I do not think it was a spiritual problem. Paul refers to it as a "thorn" in the flesh. This is why I agree with the interpretation that it was a physical ailment. I disagree with your statement: "The process of elimination leaves only our physical health and the stripes. Given, then, it is only reasonable to conclude that the stripes were meant for physical healing." “But He was wounded (pierced) for our transgressions (Breaking the law), he was bruised (crushed, punished) for our iniquities (sins); the chastisement for our peace was upon Him, and by His stripes we are healed.” To me, since the first part of the passage refers to the spiritual, I conclude the ending phrase is also speaking of the spiritual healing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted June 20, 2014 Share Posted June 20, 2014 I agree that no one knows for sure what Paul's thorn in the flesh was. There have been various theories offered, such as a chronic sickness and bad eyesight. We just don't know because the Bible does not tell us. I do not think it was a spiritual problem. Paul refers to it as a "thorn" in the flesh. This is why I agree with the interpretation that it was a physical ailment. Most likely Paul hated and feared his own homosexuality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisdownunder Posted June 20, 2014 Share Posted June 20, 2014 I agree that no one knows for sure what Paul's thorn in the flesh was. There have been various theories offered, such as a chronic sickness and bad eyesight. We just don't know because the Bible does not tell us. I do not think it was a spiritual problem. Paul refers to it as a "thorn" in the flesh. This is why I agree with the interpretation that it was a physical ailment. Most likely Paul hated and feared his own homosexuality. Who knows? Maybe he feared fucking the sunday roast when all the other disciples were gathered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RipVanWinkle Posted June 20, 2014 Share Posted June 20, 2014 “…and by his stripes, we are healed.” Isaiah 53:5 "I believe that is true. We are healed spiritually by Christ's atonement. We will be fully healed at the resurrection." ironhorse Apparently, according to ironhorse, jesus had a limited vocabulary. Thus, although jesus didn't say we would be healed only spiritually, that is what he meant. Tough luck succors. Too bad that by that lack of specificity thousands have lost their lives or suffered untold aggravated illnesses by relying on jesus' promise to heal. Did jesus know that thousands and thousands of people would be hurt more or die because jesus was not specific enough? If he did know it, he deliberately misled all those unfortunate people causing massive misery. If he didn't, he certainly was not god. Take your pick Xtian. By the way, what the heck is a spiritual injury, anyway? bill 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted June 20, 2014 Author Super Moderator Share Posted June 20, 2014 “…and by his stripes, we are healed.” Isaiah 53:5 I believe that is true. We are healed spiritually by Christ's atonement. We will be fully healed at the resurrection. I don't believe that this verse is a magic chant one use to claim physical healing in all things. The Bible does not promise us complete physical healing of every disease or affliction in this life. Paul requested three times to be healed physically and his request was not met. (2 Corinthians 12:1-10) The answer: “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” God said no to Paul’s request for healing. Paul did not keep confessing "by his stripes" I’m healed and struggling in faith to make it happen. Paul accepted the Lord's answer. The problem with your interpretation, TinPony, is that you are taking the passage out of its context. If we look at the complete passage (in context) we'll see why your interpretation fails. He was wounded for our transgressions Bruised for our iniquities The chastisement of our peace was upon him And by his stripes we are healed. So we can see that the stripes weren't for the spiritual maladies which plague us; it was the task of the wounds and bruises to shore those up. Furthermore, he was chastised in order that we might have peace. Some versions translate this as "surely he bore our sorrows". This means that our spiritual health was taken care of by the wounds and bruises; and our emotional health was dealt with by the chastisement. The process of elimination leaves only our physical health and the stripes. Given, then, it is only reasonable to conclude that the stripes were meant for physical healing. Further, while paul does complain of what he describes as a "thorn in his side", no where does paul or any other new testament writer describe this "thorn" as a physical ailment. It, as much of the rest of the bible, is simply left for us to wonder about. You would like for it to be a physical sickness because that would fit your interpretation. However, that is not what the bible says. You've taken this passage out of context by simply imposing your own interpretation onto it. And yes, god's answer to paul was "No" because that is god's answer to every prayer for healing. So, as you can see, TinPony, you've fallen into the trap of taking scripture out of context. I wouldn't beat yourself up too much about it, though. Apparently, taking scripture out of context is a pretty common thing that people do. The main complaint we get from christians here is that we take things out of context. In fact, there's a member here by the name of Ironhorse who harps on it constantly. I agree that no one knows for sure what Paul's thorn in the flesh was. There have been various theories offered, such as a chronic sickness and bad eyesight. We just don't know because the Bible does not tell us. I do not think it was a spiritual problem. Paul refers to it as a "thorn" in the flesh. This is why I agree with the interpretation that it was a physical ailment. I disagree with your statement: "The process of elimination leaves only our physical health and the stripes. Given, then, it is only reasonable to conclude that the stripes were meant for physical healing." “But He was wounded (pierced) for our transgressions (Breaking the law), he was bruised (crushed, punished) for our iniquities (sins); the chastisement for our peace was upon Him, and by His stripes we are healed.” To me, since the first part of the passage refers to the spiritual, I conclude the ending phrase is also speaking of the spiritual healing. Why would the ending phrase concern spiritual healing simply because the first part referred to it? The first part refers to wounds, the ending refers to healing. This should be a clue to you that somewhere within the passage, the subject has changed. And, as god is supposed to be our "jehovah jireh", the provider of all our needs, it would be more in line with his position to provide for the physical (stripes) along with the emotional (chastisement) and spiritual (wounds and bruises) Your conclusion is based on nothing more than your desire for your interpretation to be correct. Moreover, are you suggesting that the lepers jesus healed only suffered from spiritual leprosy? The woman with the issue of blood, was it only spiritual blood she was leaking? jesus, about whom we are invited to believe this passage refers, physically healed physical people of physical maladies in the physical world. His own behavior supports my analysis over your interpretation. And, if he already had been bruised and wounded for our spiritual well-being, as we both agree, where was the sense in taking on stripes to serve the same purpose? He had already been redundant in being bruised on top of being wounded. Triple redundancy is far too much foresight for a god who could so easily be defeated by iron chariots. No, TinPony, your interpretation simply doesn't line up with what is actually written in the bible. jesus did heal people. Granted, his "mission" here, assuming it ever actually happened, may have been more focused on the spiritual, but he also definitely operating within the physical; and much of that operation was in healing people of physical ailments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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