By His Stripes, Indeed

[TheRedneckProfessor]

What science has to say on the subject:

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/31/health/31pray.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

[Gus]

 

 

 

We have a lot to learn, but the what we have concluded is that it is not God who is holding back, it is either we are doing something wrong, or not doing something. Despite that, I have seen people healed from many sicknesses. On a personal level, a dear friend of mine, her dad was diagnosed with cancer of the spine. He was shown scans, it did not look good. We prayed, and rather than asking for healing, we belief he already had it, and commanded the healing to take place. The next scan the tumour had shrunk so much the doctors thought they got it wrong the first time.

The third scan it had gone completely!

 

Imagine what would have happened if humans had not created the science that gave us medical technology.  Then there would be no doctor and no scan.  Then you wouldn't know to pray.  Then the tumour would have killed you friend's dad.

 

So medical science saved him.

 

While he was at the hospital getting these scans he was also getting the best medical treatment humans have — right?

 

Yes, I agree with you. Jesus told the sick to go and be checked out by the prsiets who where the doctors of their time.

I have nothing against science or medical technology, not sure why you think I may have. Your right, the scan did show what to pray for. 

I go to the doctors, I recently had some moles surgically removed.

I think God has given us a great capacity to learn and care for each other. 

If you read my profile, you will see i work in the fitness profession. I work with hospitals and doctors with clients who suffer a great number of illness. 

That does not stop me from believing in supernatural healing.

 

 

But, if it is medical science that saved your friend's dad, then how can you say that prayer had anything to do with it?

 

Well the scan showed the extent of the condition. He was going to have emergency chemo as it was so severe.

In the end, no chemo was required. The condition went.

[Gus]

 

The op stated that it is not Gods will to heal.

All I am doing is giving an account of my expertness that to me say otherwise. I don't expect many to believe it. Im not here to change anyones views.

If God is going to be discussed, then of course for me, the Bible is true. I realise that many on here don't feel that way.

Many new christians say the same thing:  "I'm not here to change anyone's mind.  I realise most here don't believe as I do.  I know the bible won't be accepted as proof.  Et cetera."

 

Tell me, honestly, what is your motivation for being here?

 

"I just enjoy a good debate."

 

Does this mean you really enjoy an open and honest debate or do you just want to keep pressing your arguments long after they've been refuted?

 

A good and fair question.

I found this site a few months ago whilst looking for a Christian forum.

 

It mad me angry.

 

Why? I was angry with the Church and so called 'Christians' inlficting so much damage and hurting so many people.

if I had been treated the way some people on here have, I would reject it too.

 

Some of the Christian response on here also made me cringe. I wasn't going to come on. i thought you guys don't really want another Christian coming on, thinking I am here to throw grenades in and judge you.

 

But eventually I thought I would give it a try. I may not last, you may give me to much of a hard time ha-ha.

But as someone who was an atheist and became a christian of my own choice, i though maybe i have a different voice, and you can see that not all Christains are the same.

 

and also yeah, a good fair debate

[◊ crazyguy123 ◊]

I found this site a few months ago whilst looking for a Christian forum.

 

It mad me angry.

 

Why? I was angry with the Church and so called 'Christians' inflicting so much damage and hurting so many people.

if I had been treated the way some people on here have, I would reject it too.

 

Some of the Christian response on here also made me cringe. I wasn't going to come on. i thought you guys don't really want another Christian coming on, thinking I am here to throw grenades in and judge you.

 

 

Based on what others and I have posted, I've noticed that quite a few of us rejected Christianity because of barbaric, cruel, and absolutely sickening teachings found in the Bible, not because of how we were treated by Christians. I do think that mistreatment from other believers may have led some ex-Cs to start investigating their beliefs or to leave the church before deconverting, but eventually, it is the Bible itself that will ultimately lead to a deconversion.

 

By the way, we have nothing wrong with Christians coming, we just don't like the ones that actively try to irritate us. If you aren't doing that, you're welcome to hang around as long as you want.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

 

 

The op stated that it is not Gods will to heal.

All I am doing is giving an account of my expertness that to me say otherwise. I don't expect many to believe it. Im not here to change anyones views.

If God is going to be discussed, then of course for me, the Bible is true. I realise that many on here don't feel that way.

Many new christians say the same thing:  "I'm not here to change anyone's mind.  I realise most here don't believe as I do.  I know the bible won't be accepted as proof.  Et cetera."

 

Tell me, honestly, what is your motivation for being here?

 

"I just enjoy a good debate."

 

Does this mean you really enjoy an open and honest debate or do you just want to keep pressing your arguments long after they've been refuted?

 

A good and fair question.

I found this site a few months ago whilst looking for a Christian forum.

 

It mad me angry.

 

Why? I was angry with the Church and so called 'Christians' inlficting so much damage and hurting so many people.

if I had been treated the way some people on here have, I would reject it too.

 

Some of the Christian response on here also made me cringe. I wasn't going to come on. i thought you guys don't really want another Christian coming on, thinking I am here to throw grenades in and judge you.

 

But eventually I thought I would give it a try. I may not last, you may give me to much of a hard time ha-ha.

But as someone who was an atheist and became a christian of my own choice, i though maybe i have a different voice, and you can see that not all Christains are the same.

 

and also yeah, a good fair debate

 

We will see, then, whether your deeds align with your words.  In the meantime, welcome to our house.

[FreeThinkerNZ]

 

 

The op stated that it is not Gods will to heal.

All I am doing is giving an account of my expertness that to me say otherwise. I don't expect many to believe it. Im not here to change anyones views.

If God is going to be discussed, then of course for me, the Bible is true. I realise that many on here don't feel that way.

Many new christians say the same thing:  "I'm not here to change anyone's mind.  I realise most here don't believe as I do.  I know the bible won't be accepted as proof.  Et cetera."

 

Tell me, honestly, what is your motivation for being here?

 

"I just enjoy a good debate."

 

Does this mean you really enjoy an open and honest debate or do you just want to keep pressing your arguments long after they've been refuted?

 

A good and fair question.

I found this site a few months ago whilst looking for a Christian forum.

 

It mad me angry.

 

Why? I was angry with the Church and so called 'Christians' inlficting so much damage and hurting so many people.

if I had been treated the way some people on here have, I would reject it too.

 

Some of the Christian response on here also made me cringe. I wasn't going to come on. i thought you guys don't really want another Christian coming on, thinking I am here to throw grenades in and judge you.

 

But eventually I thought I would give it a try. I may not last, you may give me to much of a hard time ha-ha.

But as someone who was an atheist and became a christian of my own choice, i though maybe i have a different voice, and you can see that not all Christains are the same.

 

and also yeah, a good fair debate

 

Just curious, were you raised by Christian parents?  And, why did you become a Christian?  

[Gus]

 

 

 

The op stated that it is not Gods will to heal.

All I am doing is giving an account of my expertness that to me say otherwise. I don't expect many to believe it. Im not here to change anyones views.

If God is going to be discussed, then of course for me, the Bible is true. I realise that many on here don't feel that way.

Many new christians say the same thing:  "I'm not here to change anyone's mind.  I realise most here don't believe as I do.  I know the bible won't be accepted as proof.  Et cetera."

 

Tell me, honestly, what is your motivation for being here?

 

"I just enjoy a good debate."

 

Does this mean you really enjoy an open and honest debate or do you just want to keep pressing your arguments long after they've been refuted?

 

A good and fair question.

I found this site a few months ago whilst looking for a Christian forum.

 

It mad me angry.

 

Why? I was angry with the Church and so called 'Christians' inlficting so much damage and hurting so many people.

if I had been treated the way some people on here have, I would reject it too.

 

Some of the Christian response on here also made me cringe. I wasn't going to come on. i thought you guys don't really want another Christian coming on, thinking I am here to throw grenades in and judge you.

 

But eventually I thought I would give it a try. I may not last, you may give me to much of a hard time ha-ha.

But as someone who was an atheist and became a christian of my own choice, i though maybe i have a different voice, and you can see that not all Christains are the same.

 

and also yeah, a good fair debate

 

Just curious, were you raised by Christian parents?  And, why did you become a Christian?  

 

Hi,

 

Nope, nobody in my family is Christian. I was not brought up to believe anything. I occasionally went to some traditional church services when I was in boy scouts but that was it.

 

Why did I become a Christian?

 

It started with a girl I met in a bar and fancied her crazy. I got chatting, we swapped numbers, we met up. We started dating, I wanted to get close physically, she said no as she was a Christian.

Great, I thought. I've been lead along and now she tells me this!

 

Anyway, after some shouting on my part and confusion we didn't speak for a while. 

But I was intrigued, I wanted to know why she was a Christian, as I was pretty much anti God.

 

She told me about the usual but I just didn't buy it. I wanted evidence!

 

I had noticed scars on her arm but never asked were they came from. She did tell me that when younger she fell off a horse and fractured her arm so badly it was permentley twisted, of which I saw pictures.

She told me that one night a church someone prayed for her arm to be healed, and a few days later, it was.

 

I scoffed at this, but nonetheless it got me thinking. Either she is A. Lying B.Crazy or C. Telling the truth.

If she lying, she going against the very faith she said she believed in. She did not seem crazy, she was a student studying psychology. So that left me with the possibibtly something happened.

 

Cut along a few months I was still puzzled and visited a few churches. Hated it.

Hated the singing, the sermon, the people.

 

And yet, I went back. 

 

There came a point where I just knew in myself that there was a truth here somewhere. But it felt like I was not getting it all, like something was missing.

 

....Skip along a huge chunk but I became involved in youth group, went to Bible college...and left it all as I became disillusioned with some teaching and the clicks of church.

 

I took a few years out. I studied on my own, with nobody telling me, and discovered some truths about God and the bible I had not heard.

In this whole time I have seen many things that strengthen my faith despite doctrines such as hell being a major block for me. I do now attend  different Church which is very open and supportive.

 

Anyway, hope this was not too long and boring!

[mymistake]

 

 

I scoffed at this, but none the less it got me thinking. Either she is A. Lying B.Crazy or C. Telling the truth.

If she lying, she going againt the very faith she siad she believed in, She ddint seem carzy, she was a student studying pschology. So that left me with the possibibtly soemthing happend.

 

Cut along a few months I

 

 

Unfortunately those are not the only options.  There are a number of ways to trick a perfectly sane human mind.  Perhaps you have seen optical illusions?  They are not really what they appear to be but human perception is built around known flaws.  The same is done in advertising.  It's down to a science how to persuade people into doing what they wouldn't otherwise do.  When the same is done using ideas we call that fallacies.

 

The upshot of it is that normal, healthy, sane people hold many delusions.  That isn't crazy.  It's a natural result of the limits of the human brain.  Just look at all the other religions of the world and how strongly those followers believe.  Most are not crazy.  But having a core belief that is wrong can lead to constructing an entire world view that is distorted.

[xtify]

 

 

 

 

The op stated that it is not Gods will to heal.

All I am doing is giving an account of my expertness that to me say otherwise. I don't expect many to believe it. Im not here to change anyones views.

If God is going to be discussed, then of course for me, the Bible is true. I realise that many on here don't feel that way.

Many new christians say the same thing:  "I'm not here to change anyone's mind.  I realise most here don't believe as I do.  I know the bible won't be accepted as proof.  Et cetera."

 

Tell me, honestly, what is your motivation for being here?

 

"I just enjoy a good debate."

 

Does this mean you really enjoy an open and honest debate or do you just want to keep pressing your arguments long after they've been refuted?

 

A good and fair question.

I found this site a few months ago whilst looking for a Christian forum.

 

It mad me angry.

 

Why? I was angry with the Church and so called 'Christians' inlficting so much damage and hurting so many people.

if I had been treated the way some people on here have, I would reject it too.

 

Some of the Christian response on here also made me cringe. I wasn't going to come on. i thought you guys don't really want another Christian coming on, thinking I am here to throw grenades in and judge you.

 

But eventually I thought I would give it a try. I may not last, you may give me to much of a hard time ha-ha.

But as someone who was an atheist and became a christian of my own choice, i though maybe i have a different voice, and you can see that not all Christains are the same.

 

and also yeah, a good fair debate

 

Just curious, were you raised by Christian parents?  And, why did you become a Christian?  

 

Hi,

 

Nope, nobody in my family is Christian. I was not brought up to believe anything. I ocassonally went to some traditional church services when I was in boy scouts but that was it.

 

Why did I become a Christian?

 

It started with a girl i met in a bar and fancied her carzy. I got chatting, we swapped numbers, we met up. We started dating, I wanted to get close physcaily, she said no as she was a Christian.

Great, I thought. I've ben lead along and now she tells me this!

 

Anyway, after some shouting on my part and confusion we didn't speak for a while. 

But i was intigued, I wanted to knwo why she was a Christian, as I was preety much anti God.

 

She told me about the usall but i just didn't buy it. I wanted eveidence!

 

I had noticed scars on her arm but never asked hwere they came from. She did tell me that when younger she fell off a horse and fractured her arm so badly it was permentley twisted, of which I saw pictures.

She told me that one night a church someone prayed for her arm to be healed, and a few days later, it was.

 

I scoffed at this, but none the less it got me thinking. Either she is A. Lying B.Crazy or C. Telling the truth.

If she lying, she going againt the very faith she siad she believed in, She ddint seem carzy, she was a student studying pschology. So that left me with the possibibtly soemthing happend.

 

Cut along a few months I

 

 

Maybe she wanted to believe she was healed because she attended a service that was about God healing the children that he loved.  

Maybe her arm healed on its own.  A fracture isn't even a break.  She was young and she healed. It happens without the spiritual context too, eh?

[FreeThinkerNZ]

 

I scoffed at this, but nonetheless it got me thinking. Either she is A. Lying B.Crazy or C. Telling the truth.

If she lying, she going against the very faith she said she believed in. She did not seem crazy, she was a student studying psychology. So that left me with the possibibtly something happened.

 

I think are more than those 3 options.  I also think the possibly that she was mistaken or lying can't be discounted.  Just because she had a faith in god, doesn't make her incapable of lying or exaggerating.  She had every reason to interpret events in the way she did, if that's what really happened.  A photo isn't necessarily sufficient proof of anything.  The most likely explanation is that she had surgery (especially since there were scars) and for whatever reason wanted it to appear like a healing.

 

How do you explain all the suffering in the world, if there is a god who heals people?  Why would a loving god only heal the occasional broken arm in the developed world?

[sdelsolray]

 

 

 

 

The op stated that it is not Gods will to heal.

All I am doing is giving an account of my expertness that to me say otherwise. I don't expect many to believe it. Im not here to change anyones views.

If God is going to be discussed, then of course for me, the Bible is true. I realise that many on here don't feel that way.

Many new christians say the same thing:  "I'm not here to change anyone's mind.  I realise most here don't believe as I do.  I know the bible won't be accepted as proof.  Et cetera."

 

Tell me, honestly, what is your motivation for being here?

 

"I just enjoy a good debate."

 

Does this mean you really enjoy an open and honest debate or do you just want to keep pressing your arguments long after they've been refuted?

 

A good and fair question.

I found this site a few months ago whilst looking for a Christian forum.

 

It mad me angry.

 

Why? I was angry with the Church and so called 'Christians' inlficting so much damage and hurting so many people.

if I had been treated the way some people on here have, I would reject it too.

 

Some of the Christian response on here also made me cringe. I wasn't going to come on. i thought you guys don't really want another Christian coming on, thinking I am here to throw grenades in and judge you.

 

But eventually I thought I would give it a try. I may not last, you may give me to much of a hard time ha-ha.

But as someone who was an atheist and became a christian of my own choice, i though maybe i have a different voice, and you can see that not all Christains are the same.

 

and also yeah, a good fair debate

 

Just curious, were you raised by Christian parents?  And, why did you become a Christian?  

 

Hi,

 

Nope, nobody in my family is Christian. I was not brought up to believe anything. I occasionally went to some traditional church services when I was in boy scouts but that was it.

 

Why did I become a Christian?

 

It started with a girl I met in a bar and fancied her crazy. I got chatting, we swapped numbers, we met up. We started dating, I wanted to get close physically, she said no as she was a Christian.

Great, I thought. I've been lead along and now she tells me this!

 

Anyway, after some shouting on my part and confusion we didn't speak for a while. 

But I was intrigued, I wanted to know why she was a Christian, as I was pretty much anti God.

 

She told me about the usual but I just didn't buy it. I wanted evidence!

 

I had noticed scars on her arm but never asked were they came from. She did tell me that when younger she fell off a horse and fractured her arm so badly it was permentley twisted, of which I saw pictures.

She told me that one night a church someone prayed for her arm to be healed, and a few days later, it was.

 

I scoffed at this, but nonetheless it got me thinking. Either she is A. Lying B.Crazy or C. Telling the truth.

If she lying, she going against the very faith she said she believed in. She did not seem crazy, she was a student studying psychology. So that left me with the possibibtly something happened.

 

Cut along a few months I was still puzzled and visited a few churches. Hated it.

Hated the singing, the sermon, the people.

 

And yet, I went back. 

 

There came a point where I just knew in myself that there was a truth here somewhere. But it felt like I was not getting it all, like something was missing.

 

....Skip along a huge chunk but I became involved in youth group, went to Bible college...and left it all as I became disillusioned with some teaching and the clicks of church.

 

I took a few years out. I studied on my own, with nobody telling me, and discovered some truths about God and the bible I had not heard.

In this whole time I have seen many things that strengthen my faith despite doctrines such as hell being a major block for me. I do now attend  different Church which is very open and supportive.

 

Anyway, hope this was not too long and boring!

 

Your underselling of your conversion is quite apparent.  I suspect there is much more to why you chose to believe in imaginary sky fairies and associated religious dogma.  Perhaps some day you will discover why you chose religious faith over rational thinking.  

 

Regardless, you will no doubt make claims and statements with certain assumptions, such as your chosen sky fairies actually exist, the Bible is inerrant, your interpretation of the Bible is correct (and others' is incorrect), etc.  Those sorts of assumptions may be assumed by other posters too, for the sake of discussion, but can just as easily be challenged and labeled mere assertions, a type of informal logical fallacy.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

Why would a loving god only heal the occasional broken arm in the developed world?

Tim Minchin addresses this question:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=74SQ6w6LdU0

[xtify]

"She did tell me that when younger she fell off a horse and fractured her arm so badly it was permentley twisted, of which I saw pictures.

She told me that one night a church someone prayed for her arm to be healed, and a few days later, it was."

 

You said a few days later that her arm was not twisted anymore.  That doesn't sound miraculous to me.  The simpler explanation would be that she was favoring her other arm and she was hesitant to use her fractured arm after her injury.  Then, when she was told it was healed, she began to use it again and a few days later, the muscles began to strengthen.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

As I've said before, there's nothing miraculous about coincidence.  Take note, Gus; you are beginning a journey you may not have planned for.

[RipVanWinkle]

You Xtians crave for some real proof that your faith is solid. Anything that can somehow be seen as a miracle will be a miracle somehow. That's the way Xtians look at it. I've seen it numerous times in my long life. You guys don't care one whit about the truth. You have convinced yourselves that finding any hint of evidence of miracles is what god wants from you and if it's not true He will come down from heaven and personally tell you that you are off track. Otherwise, it must be true. Your whole belief system starts with an unfounded belief that the bible is true and every conclusion you arrive at is based upon that assumption. And yet you criticize us for objecting to your using the bible as unquestionable truth without your having proved it. We can never have a meaningful discussion with your continual insistence upon the truth of the bible without proof. Do us all a favor and quit pussyfooting around the bottom line issue of the validity of your faith.   bill

[wanderinstar]

The belief that it is always gods will to heal so if healing doesn't come the fault lies in the prayer or person being prayed for is dangerous and harmful. You are blaming sick people for still being sick, that is pretty low. The problem you have is that you can't blame a perfect god who apparently wants everyone to be healed, but that is where the blame should be laid. I spent years praying, being prayed for, fasting, declaring the word of god and doing anything I heard of that was biblical to be healed of mental illness but could never find relief. Being aware that it was a problem my end only made my illness harder to bear, it was tormenting, It go so bad for me that I attempted suicide as I could not take the torment anymore and wanted to go home to god. I also wanted to ask him what was I doing wrong and how come he wouldn;t make it clear to me. This was the beginning of my deconversion as I began to question gods word as it didn't fit reality. I was so mad at god at times I wanted him to kill me so I could argue with him about this face to face. 

 

After a few years of being deconverted and secular treatment for what I now know is bipolar, I am feeling much better and able to hold down a job and study. If your god is real why didn't he tell me how to be healed (over 15 years) but instead make my illness worse and let his church treat me terribly?? There must be so many people in my position still in churches and my heart goes out to them. I can just hope they find the 'real' help they need before it is too late.

[bfuddled]

The belief that it is always gods will to heal so if healing doesn't come the fault lies in the prayer or person being prayed for is dangerous and harmful. You are blaming sick people for still being sick, that is pretty low. The problem you have is that you can't blame a perfect god who apparently wants everyone to be healed, but that is where the blame should be laid. I spent years praying, being prayed for, fasting, declaring the word of god and doing anything I heard of that was biblical to be healed of mental illness but could never find relief. Being aware that it was a problem my end only made my illness harder to bear, it was tormenting, It go so bad for me that I attempted suicide as I could not take the torment anymore and wanted to go home to god. I also wanted to ask him what was I doing wrong and how come he wouldn;t make it clear to me. This was the beginning of my deconversion as I began to question gods word as it didn't fit reality. I was so mad at god at times I wanted him to kill me so I could argue with him about this face to face. 

 

After a few years of being deconverted and secular treatment for what I now know is bipolar, I am feeling much better and able to hold down a job and study. If your god is real why didn't he tell me how to be healed (over 15 years) but instead make my illness worse and let his church treat me terribly?? There must be so many people in my position still in churches and my heart goes out to them. I can just hope they find the 'real' help they need before it is too late.

 

You said what I was going to say.

 

To tell a sick person that it's THEIR FAULT that God hasn't healed them is disgusting. Like wanderinstar, I have had mental health issues (extreme anxiety) since I was a child. I was raised Christian and I prayed and prayed and prayed and prayed with all my heart. I had people pray for me and even had a few times that I *thought* I had been healed, and fully believed that it had happened.. only to have crushing anxiety again in a few days. For YEARS I believed the lie that it was something *I* was doing wrong. I wasn't asking in the right way, or in a sincere enough manner, or that I didn't believe enough.

 

I even read the verses about the "thorn" in Paul's side and was terrified that maybe this was MY thorn I had to bear, that God had given me this condition and was refusing to take it away because he wanted to teach me something. I tried to live with that thought for awhile, just accepting that this was what god wanted for me, that somehow it was for my own good.

 

Thank goodness I had parents who, while Christian, were not STUPID and they took me to a psychiatrist and I was able to start medication for my condition. The medication made it possible for me to lead a semi-normal life with moderate levels of anxiety. Even as an adult Christian, I prayed that God would heal me, and a few times I "believed" that he had, and decided to go off my medication, only to have the anxiety/etc come crashing back on me.

 

Years ago I finally accepted that this is something I will have to deal with for the rest of my life, and I quit praying about it.

 

There are millions of people who pray for healing EVERY DAY with honest, sincere hearts, full of belief in God, and they get NOTHING. To answer back that it is their fault is extremely callous and ignorant. I really hope that you don't say those kinds of things to sick people IRL.

[Gus]

 

 

I scoffed at this, but nonetheless it got me thinking. Either she is A. Lying B.Crazy or C. Telling the truth.

If she lying, she going against the very faith she said she believed in. She did not seem crazy, she was a student studying psychology. So that left me with the possibibtly something happened.

 

I think are more than those 3 options.  I also think the possibly that she was mistaken or lying can't be discounted.  Just because she had a faith in god, doesn't make her incapable of lying or exaggerating.  She had every reason to interpret events in the way she did, if that's what really happened.  A photo isn't necessarily sufficient proof of anything.  The most likely explanation is that she had surgery (especially since there were scars) and for whatever reason wanted it to appear like a healing.

 

How do you explain all the suffering in the world, if there is a god who heals people?  Why would a loving god only heal the occasional broken arm in the developed world?

 

Hi

 

Some of you have said similar things here, and yes, I don't doubt they are valid arguments.

Thats why that incident on its own did not change me, but it was the start of looking, I wanted to know if there could be any truth here.

 

Explaining the suffering in the world and God is probably the most brought up subject. And you have probably had the same answer. A fallen world right?

 

Anyway, there is no reason anybody could not receive healing, wherever they are. God will meet us on an indiviua basis. Interesting that you put developed world. In the undeveloped world, sickness and disease is greater surely due to poorer hygiene, education, money, poor government rule etc so by that you will see more suffering anyway.

God really wants us to be the ones to help them and make the difference, and of course many people are doing great work.

[Roz]

 

God really wants us to be the ones to help them and make the difference, and of course many people are doing great work.

 

 

You stated a positive assertion that your god wants people to help other people out.  Do you read your bible?  Or do you gloss over what he did when he was ruling over israel in a theocratic government...

[RipVanWinkle]

"Explaining the suffering in the world and God is probably the most brought up subject. And you have probably had the same answer. A fallen world right?" Gus

 

 

I assume you are joking. Exchristians believe the world is suffering because this is a fallen world?

The world hasn't fallen. It revolves around the sun. bill

[bornagainathiest]

Perhaps Gus could explain to us when in history this world became fallen?  And from what did it fall?  And how?

[Neverlandrut]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I won’t bother to ask why god doesn’t heal people. We already know the answer to that: It just isn’t god’s will. But that is precisely the sticking point I wish to address here.

 

“…And by his stripes, we are healed.” Isaiah 53:5

 

Based upon this scripture (and its reiteration in the writings of paul), we are invited to believe that Jesus was beaten so that he could identify with the pain of sickness, injury, and disease that we all suffer. Further, we are told that those stripes were gladly accepted by Jesus in order to provide for our healing.

 

Yet, it’s never his will to heal anyone.

 

 

Unfortunately many people do feel it is not always God's will to heal but is that true?

However 17 times in the Gospels Jesus healed all of the sick who where present. 47 other times he healed one or two people at a time. Nowhere do we see Jesus refusing to heal anyone.

Jesus said he could do nothing of himself but only what he saw the father do.

In light of this, Jesus' actions are proof enough that is always God's will to heal.

 

It's easy for me to say that of course, but what experience of it have I actually seen?

 

A bit about my personal life. When I started to believe in God, I knew that the bible had to be true, or none of it can be trusted. So to me, healing would have to be true of course.

Now in my family, my mum is currently in a care home for the mentally unwell. I have had deal with some very difficult times in my life through this, and it has driven my sister to alcoholism.

The medical profession have said there is no hope, she will get worse. This drove me to seeking answers in Gods healing.

For my family, I don't yet have those answers, and that has been challenging.

I was also at a healing event one night, and an old lady was asked to stand up from her wheel chair, and the visiting minister proclaimed she could now walk again. He let go of her, and she fell, bashing he head on the chair on the way down. An ambulance was called, and my she was taken away. Nothing was really said of it in that Church again, but that stopped me going as I thought this is wrong, something is not right.

 

However, I still had a desire to see if any of this should be true, so I researched, I brought books on healing, I listened to podcasts , etc. Eventually I realised that if God has already provided the healing, we didn't need to ask for it. We could use what we have been given. This was a revelation for me, and I met some men in a Church who had started to think the same way.

We started a healing prayer group, to see what would happen.

 

We have a lot to learn, but the what we have concluded is that it is not God who is holding back, it is either we are doing something wrong, or not doing something. Despite that, I have seen people healed from many sicknesses. On a personal level, a dear friend of mine, her dad was diagnosed with cancer of the spine. He was shown scans, it did not look good. We prayed, and rather than asking for healing, we belief he already had it, and commanded the healing to take place. The next scan the tumour had shrunk so much the doctors thought they got it wrong the first time.

The third scan it had gone completely!

 

Some of the guys in our group have now started healing on the streets and again have seen many amazing healings, and some failures too. We don't have all the answers yet, but we know it is God's will to heal, and that gives us the strength to keep pushing into it.

I would begin by cautioning you against making unfounded assertions, such as "the bible is true" in this forum. While this thread does not deal with the validity of scripture per se, you will quickly find the company here have no problem tearing holes in truth claims. I would further advise against basing yet more assertions upon an already unsupported claim. I cite your claim that healing must be true, since the bible says it is and the bible is true.

 

Secondly, anecdotes such as yours are nothing new. I heard stories like that myself growing up, even told some myself. The fact is, though, cancer does sometimes go into remission. Tumors do sometimes shrink. There is nothing miraculous about coincidence. Hospitals wouldn't exist if stories like yours were real. However, reality demonstrates that miraculous healings simply aren't what the bible claims them to be.

The op stated that it is not Gods will to heal.

All I am doing is giving an account of my experines that to me say otherwise. I don't expect many to believe it. Im not here to change anyones views.

If God is going to be discussed, then of course for me, the Bible is true. I realise that many on here don't feel that way.

So you just believe the bible on faith, presupposing it's true. We all did at one time. Admiting your ignorance of some of God's ways (why he doesn't heal in some or all cases) then claiming that you still know other things are true (like god exists and the bible is true) just because the bible says so and you have some past experiences the you assume are proof but are really nothing more than confirmation bias does not follow. Of course you are free to believe what you want, but it sounds like you somewhat understand that your beliefs are just subjective wishful thinking.

[Gus]

"Explaining the suffering in the world and God is probably the most brought up subject. And you have probably had the same answer. A fallen world right?" Gus

 

 

I assume you are joking. Exchristians believe the world is suffering because this is a fallen world?

The world hasn't fallen. It revolves around the sun. bill

I didn't mean that is what you think.  I meant that is probably the usual, not very helpful answer most Christians give when pressed with that question.

 

I cant reply to every post, just let me say that I have not said it is anyones fault they are sick or become ill, that is not what I was saying.

Remember that the op said that is it not gods will to heal.

I was saying that is not how I see it. If we are are not seeing 'supernatural' healing, then as Christians, that being myself, I am missing something. I said that I have both seen healing and also at times none. You are right, I don't understand it all, but even the disciples did not always see healing.

In no way do I blame any individual for getting sick, I did not say that. We get sick, it happiness, I get sick.

[Gus]

You Xtians crave for some real proof that your faith is solid. Anything that can somehow be seen as a miracle will be a miracle somehow. That's the way Xtians look at it. I've seen it numerous times in my long life. You guys don't care one whit about the truth. You have convinced yourselves that finding any hint of evidence of miracles is what god wants from you and if it's not true He will come down from heaven and personally tell you that you are off track. Otherwise, it must be true. Your whole belief system starts with an unfounded belief that the bible is true and every conclusion you arrive at is based upon that assumption. And yet you criticize us for objecting to your using the bible as unquestionable truth without your having proved it. We can never have a meaningful discussion with your continual insistence upon the truth of the bible without proof. Do us all a favor and quit pussyfooting around the bottom line issue of the validity of your faith.   bill

On the contrary, I only seek the truth. Correct I believe the Bible to be true, which is why I have such a dissatisfaction with the majority of the church, religion and Christianity as it is commonly experienced.

Also I have not critized anyone here for objecting to me using the Bible as truth. You can't paint everyone with the same brush.I am open for meaningful discussion. Ill be honest, and maybe you don't like what I say, but I would prefer it does not turn to insults and put downs. I wont do it to you.

[bfuddled]

 

You Xtians crave for some real proof that your faith is solid. Anything that can somehow be seen as a miracle will be a miracle somehow. That's the way Xtians look at it. I've seen it numerous times in my long life. You guys don't care one whit about the truth. You have convinced yourselves that finding any hint of evidence of miracles is what god wants from you and if it's not true He will come down from heaven and personally tell you that you are off track. Otherwise, it must be true. Your whole belief system starts with an unfounded belief that the bible is true and every conclusion you arrive at is based upon that assumption. And yet you criticize us for objecting to your using the bible as unquestionable truth without your having proved it. We can never have a meaningful discussion with your continual insistence upon the truth of the bible without proof. Do us all a favor and quit pussyfooting around the bottom line issue of the validity of your faith.   bill

On the contrary, I only seek the truth. Correct I believe the Bible to be true, which is why I have such a dissatisfaction with the majority of the church, religion and Christianity as it is commonly experienced.

Also I have not critized anyone here for objecting to me using the Bible as truth. You can't paint everyone with the same brush.I am open for meaningful discussion. Ill be honest, and maybe you don't like what I say, but I would prefer it does not turn to insults and put downs. I wont do it to you.

 

 

Did you read my or wanderinstar's post? Do you not see how INSULTING it is to tell a sick person that it is their fault that God has not healed them, that they did not have enough faith?

 

My point was that you need to think about how that feels to a person who is sick and desperate for some kind of answer from God.