Neverlandrut Posted June 24, 2014 Share Posted June 24, 2014 You Xtians crave for some real proof that your faith is solid. Anything that can somehow be seen as a miracle will be a miracle somehow. That's the way Xtians look at it. I've seen it numerous times in my long life. You guys don't care one whit about the truth. You have convinced yourselves that finding any hint of evidence of miracles is what god wants from you and if it's not true He will come down from heaven and personally tell you that you are off track. Otherwise, it must be true. Your whole belief system starts with an unfounded belief that the bible is true and every conclusion you arrive at is based upon that assumption. And yet you criticize us for objecting to your using the bible as unquestionable truth without your having proved it. We can never have a meaningful discussion with your continual insistence upon the truth of the bible without proof. Do us all a favor and quit pussyfooting around the bottom line issue of the validity of your faith. bill On the contrary, I only seek the truth. Correct I believe the Bible to be true, which is why I have such a dissatisfaction with the majority of the church, religion and Christianity as it is commonly experienced.Also I have not critized anyone here for objecting to me using the Bible as truth. You can't paint everyone with the same brush.I am open for meaningful discussion. Ill be honest, and maybe you don't like what I say, but I would prefer it does not turn to insults and put downs. I wont do it to you. Careful Gus. Dissatisfaction with the majority of the church, as you put it, is the first step to deconversion. Maybe that's why you're drawn here. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wanderinstar Posted June 24, 2014 Share Posted June 24, 2014 I was saying that is not how I see it. If we are are not seeing 'supernatural' healing, then as Christians, that being myself, I am missing something. I said that I have both seen healing and also at times none. You are right, I don't understand it all, but even the disciples did not always see healing. In no way do I blame any individual for getting sick, I did not say that. We get sick, it happiness, I get sick. You are blaming both the person who is sick and/or the people who are praying by saying they are missing something. If they only did xyz then god would heal. This is a dangerous and damaging belief and practice. I do understand where you are coming from as I used to believe it with all my heart so I don't think you are a bad person or anything, I can see your heart is in the right place. I am just writing for all who read this and may be confused as to why god won't heal them to make sure they don't leave feeling like it is their fault. The fact is god just doesn't heal. It can be hard to accept but it is true. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RipVanWinkle Posted June 24, 2014 Share Posted June 24, 2014 Gus: I am not intending to personally attack you. But I have to tell you the truth as I see it.It is very difficult to put your preferences and prejudices aside to look objectively at some issue and asses whether it is true. Most people know that in the abstract. I was a Xtian for about 40 years or so. During that time, off and on, I had issues about things that didn't add up in Xtianity. My mind set was such that I would try to push away those questions because of two things. First,I felt guilty for even thinking of the possibility that anything the bible said was true was, in fact, not true. Second, I was afraid that if I followed through and researched these questions so as to determine the reasons for all sides of an issue, that I would find out that the probable answer was not what I wanted. I would discover serious doubts about Xtianity. But finally I realized that god would never want me to avoid testing anything he said. That would be ridiculous.It would be an admission by god that his word could not survive an honest challenge. Jesus said "I am the way the truth and the life". Okay, is that position sustainable? In order to test this I had to make no assumptions about the bible,neither that it is true nor untrue. That assumption was not forever, but long enough to check the facts as best they could be determined.I did that. I spent years reading history of the church, bible criticism, apologetic books, science, the adoption of the OT and NT as the CANON of xtianity, etc. I am satisfied that I did as thorough a job as I was capable of doing. But I don't make any such decision absolute. I am persuaded that Xtianity is a myth, like all religions. But my opinion is always subject to change, although a change is highly unlikely.Evidence would dictate a change if there ever is to be one. You say you believe the bible is true and you also seek the truth. Those positions can't be held simultaneously or else your search for truth is bogus.You can make no such assumption about the truth of the bible if you are seeking the truth. If you do, a major part of your search for the truth has been decided before the search has begun.Your work would be in vain. If you make the assumption of the truth of the bible,and then do your search, it is finished before you start and your conclusion will be a illusion. That's why it takes courage to search for the truth objectively: You don't have control of its outcome. And it is that control that Xtians don't want to give up. I haven't spent this much time on this point for a long time because I have yet to find a Xtian here who really wants to do an objective search for the truth.I can only hope that you are the exception. bill 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdelsolray Posted June 24, 2014 Share Posted June 24, 2014 ... Anyway, there is no reason anybody could not receive healing, wherever they are. God will meet us on an indiviua basis. ... God really wants us to be the ones to help them and make the difference…. And so it starts. Mere assertions. You apparently believe them, and perhaps would claim them to be true. If the former, I have little interest in what you simply believe. If the latter, please present your empirical evidence supporting these merely asserted truth claims. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neverlandrut Posted June 24, 2014 Share Posted June 24, 2014 Gus: I am not intending to personally attack you. But I have to tell you the truth as I see it.It is very difficult to put your preferences and prejudices aside to look objectively at some issue and asses whether it is true. Most people know that in the abstract. I was a Xtian for about 40 years or so. During that time, off and on, I had issues about things that didn't add up in Xtianity. My mind set was such that I would try to push away those questions because of two things. First,I felt guilty for even thinking of the possibility that anything the bible said was true was, in fact, not true. Second, I was afraid that if I followed through and researched these questions so as to determine the reasons for all sides of an issue, that I would find out that the probable answer was not what I wanted. I would discover serious doubts about Xtianity. But finally I realized that god would never want me to avoid testing anything he said. That would be ridiculous.It would be an admission by god that his word could not survive an honest challenge. Jesus said "I am the way the truth and the life". Okay, is that position sustainable? In order to test this I had to make no assumptions about the bible,neither that it is true nor untrue. That assumption was not forever, but long enough to check the facts as best they could be determined.I did that. I spent years reading history of the church, bible criticism, apologetic books, science, the adoption of the OT and NT as the CANON of xtianity, etc. I am satisfied that I did as thorough a job as I was capable of doing. But I don't make any such decision absolute. I am persuaded that Xtianity is a myth, like all religions. But my opinion is always subject to change, although a change is highly unlikely.Evidence would dictate a change if there ever is to be one. You say you believe the bible is true and you also seek the truth. Those positions can't be held simultaneously or else your search for truth is bogus.You can make no such assumption about the truth of the bible if you are seeking the truth. If you do, a major part of your search for the truth has been decided before the search has begun.Your work would be in vain. If you make the assumption of the truth of the bible,and then do your search, it is finished before you start and your conclusion will be a illusion. That's why it takes courage to search for the truth objectively: You don't have control of its outcome. And it is that control that Xtians don't want to give up. I haven't spent this much time on this point for a long time because I have yet to find a Xtian here who really wants to do an objective search for the truth.I can only hope that you are the exception. bill Well said Bill! Thank you for that. It is absolutely true. Looking back now, I realize that I held on to the "bible is true" because I was afraid of uncertainty. And it is scary! At first, that is. I sympathize with Christians. I understand that longing for certainty, peace, and comfort. All human beings want that. We all want comforting, symplistic answers that make us feel safe deep down in side. We don't really even care if they are true or not so long as they work for us. But once I realized there was no way the bible could be the word of god and that there was no rational reason to believe there was a god, I began to realize that all of the feelings of comfort, peace, and security that I had before ultimately came from myself. My fundamental focus shifted from "what makes me feel good?" to "what is actually true?" I am no longer afraid. I am more at peace, more comforted, and more self assured than I have ever been in my life. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RipVanWinkle Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 Gus: See by his stripes, indeed. #78. I'd like to know your response to this. Do you think you can hold on to absolute biblical truth and also search for the truth in all honesty simultaneously? bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thought2Much Posted June 29, 2014 Share Posted June 29, 2014 "Ask the Father whatever you will in my name, and he will give it you." -Jesus Jesus is not saying you can ask anything and He will do it. He is saying ask anything, in my name and He will do it. Thinking that “in my name” simply means using the name of Jesus as a magic word to gain out heart's desires is not what he meant. It means our request must be in accordance to his will and purpose. COPOUT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
◊ crazyguy123 ◊ Posted June 29, 2014 Share Posted June 29, 2014 "Ask the Father whatever you will in my name, and he will give it you." -Jesus Jesus is not saying you can ask anything and He will do it. He is saying ask anything, in my name and He will do it. Thinking that “in my name” simply means using the name of Jesus as a magic word to gain out heart's desires is not what he meant. It means our request must be in accordance to his will and purpose. This is what you apologists always do. When the Bible says X, but is clearly wrong, you make up some excuse about how the Bible doesn't mean what it says. How convenient! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thought2Much Posted June 29, 2014 Share Posted June 29, 2014 I scoffed at this, but nonetheless it got me thinking. Either she is A. Lying B.Crazy or C. Telling the truth. If she lying, she going against the very faith she said she believed in. She did not seem crazy, she was a student studying psychology. So that left me with the possibibtly something happened. I think are more than those 3 options. I also think the possibly that she was mistaken or lying can't be discounted. Just because she had a faith in god, doesn't make her incapable of lying or exaggerating. She had every reason to interpret events in the way she did, if that's what really happened. A photo isn't necessarily sufficient proof of anything. The most likely explanation is that she had surgery (especially since there were scars) and for whatever reason wanted it to appear like a healing. How do you explain all the suffering in the world, if there is a god who heals people? Why would a loving god only heal the occasional broken arm in the developed world? Hi Some of you have said similar things here, and yes, I don't doubt they are valid arguments. Thats why that incident on its own did not change me, but it was the start of looking, I wanted to know if there could be any truth here. Explaining the suffering in the world and God is probably the most brought up subject. And you have probably had the same answer. A fallen world right? Anyway, there is no reason anybody could not receive healing, wherever they are. God will meet us on an indiviua basis. Interesting that you put developed world. In the undeveloped world, sickness and disease is greater surely due to poorer hygiene, education, money, poor government rule etc so by that you will see more suffering anyway. God really wants us to be the ones to help them and make the difference, and of course many people are doing great work. Gus, please explain the portion of your statement that I have highlighted. God is both omnipotent and omniscient, is he not? Then it would require less relative effort for him to heal everyone that is sick, everywhere in the world, permanently, than it took me to type this post. Why the fuck would God rely on human beings to do this? Is he all-powerful, but just stupid, or something? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neverlandrut Posted June 29, 2014 Share Posted June 29, 2014 I scoffed at this, but nonetheless it got me thinking. Either she is A. Lying B.Crazy or C. Telling the truth. If she lying, she going against the very faith she said she believed in. She did not seem crazy, she was a student studying psychology. So that left me with the possibibtly something happened. I think are more than those 3 options. I also think the possibly that she was mistaken or lying can't be discounted. Just because she had a faith in god, doesn't make her incapable of lying or exaggerating. She had every reason to interpret events in the way she did, if that's what really happened. A photo isn't necessarily sufficient proof of anything. The most likely explanation is that she had surgery (especially since there were scars) and for whatever reason wanted it to appear like a healing. How do you explain all the suffering in the world, if there is a god who heals people? Why would a loving god only heal the occasional broken arm in the developed world? Hi Some of you have said similar things here, and yes, I don't doubt they are valid arguments. Thats why that incident on its own did not change me, but it was the start of looking, I wanted to know if there could be any truth here. Explaining the suffering in the world and God is probably the most brought up subject. And you have probably had the same answer. A fallen world right? Anyway, there is no reason anybody could not receive healing, wherever they are. God will meet us on an indiviua basis. Interesting that you put developed world. In the undeveloped world, sickness and disease is greater surely due to poorer hygiene, education, money, poor government rule etc so by that you will see more suffering anyway. God really wants us to be the ones to help them and make the difference, and of course many people are doing great work. Gus, please explain the portion of your statement that I have highlighted. God is both omnipotent and omniscient, is he not? Then it would require less relative effort for him to heal everyone that is sick, everywhere in the world, permanently, than it took me to type this post. Why the fuck would God rely on human beings to do this? Is he all-powerful, but just stupid, or something? To take it further, if god is omnipotent and omniscient, then he cannot rely on humans because everything is under his direct control. There can be no human free will if god is all-powerful/knowing. Notice also that omnipotence and omniscience create a paradox; god CANNOT rely on humans (but he could if he were all powerful, right?). But if he were all powerful/knowing then everything is under his direct control thus it would never be accurate to say that he is RELYING on anyone but himself. This makes omniscience and omnipotence logically incoherent concepts. What's more, they make everything in life arbitrary, products of nothing more than a supreme being's whim. Therefore omniscience and omnipotence renders our free will an illusion and renders life ultimately meaningless (funny that Christians assert the contrary). We also can never be justly praised or blamed for anything because god is directly responsible for everything that has ever happened and everything everyone has ever done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironhorse Posted June 30, 2014 Share Posted June 30, 2014 I scoffed at this, but nonetheless it got me thinking. Either she is A. Lying B.Crazy or C. Telling the truth. If she lying, she going against the very faith she said she believed in. She did not seem crazy, she was a student studying psychology. So that left me with the possibibtly something happened. I think are more than those 3 options. I also think the possibly that she was mistaken or lying can't be discounted. Just because she had a faith in god, doesn't make her incapable of lying or exaggerating. She had every reason to interpret events in the way she did, if that's what really happened. A photo isn't necessarily sufficient proof of anything. The most likely explanation is that she had surgery (especially since there were scars) and for whatever reason wanted it to appear like a healing. How do you explain all the suffering in the world, if there is a god who heals people? Why would a loving god only heal the occasional broken arm in the developed world? Hi Some of you have said similar things here, and yes, I don't doubt they are valid arguments. Thats why that incident on its own did not change me, but it was the start of looking, I wanted to know if there could be any truth here. Explaining the suffering in the world and God is probably the most brought up subject. And you have probably had the same answer. A fallen world right? Anyway, there is no reason anybody could not receive healing, wherever they are. God will meet us on an indiviua basis. Interesting that you put developed world. In the undeveloped world, sickness and disease is greater surely due to poorer hygiene, education, money, poor government rule etc so by that you will see more suffering anyway. God really wants us to be the ones to help them and make the difference, and of course many people are doing great work. Gus, please explain the portion of your statement that I have highlighted. God is both omnipotent and omniscient, is he not? Then it would require less relative effort for him to heal everyone that is sick, everywhere in the world, permanently, than it took me to type this post. Why the fuck would God rely on human beings to do this? Is he all-powerful, but just stupid, or something? To take it further, if god is omnipotent and omniscient, then he cannot rely on humans because everything is under his direct control. There can be no human free will if god is all-powerful/knowing. Notice also that omnipotence and omniscience create a paradox; god CANNOT rely on humans (but he could if he were all powerful, right?). But if he were all powerful/knowing then everything is under his direct control thus it would never be accurate to say that he is RELYING on anyone but himself. This makes omniscience and omnipotence logically incoherent concepts. What's more, they make everything in life arbitrary, products of nothing more than a supreme being's whim. Therefore omniscience and omnipotence renders our free will an illusion and renders life ultimately meaningless (funny that Christians assert the contrary). We also can never be justly praised or blamed for anything because god is directly responsible for everything that has ever happened and everything everyone has ever done. "To take it further, if god is omnipotent and omniscient, then he cannot rely on humans because everything is under his direct control. There can be no human free will if god is all-powerful/knowing." Because God is everywhere and all knowing..... why do you think everything is under his direct control? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xtify Posted June 30, 2014 Share Posted June 30, 2014 I scoffed at this, but nonetheless it got me thinking. Either she is A. Lying B.Crazy or C. Telling the truth. If she lying, she going against the very faith she said she believed in. She did not seem crazy, she was a student studying psychology. So that left me with the possibibtly something happened. I think are more than those 3 options. I also think the possibly that she was mistaken or lying can't be discounted. Just because she had a faith in god, doesn't make her incapable of lying or exaggerating. She had every reason to interpret events in the way she did, if that's what really happened. A photo isn't necessarily sufficient proof of anything. The most likely explanation is that she had surgery (especially since there were scars) and for whatever reason wanted it to appear like a healing. How do you explain all the suffering in the world, if there is a god who heals people? Why would a loving god only heal the occasional broken arm in the developed world? Hi Some of you have said similar things here, and yes, I don't doubt they are valid arguments. Thats why that incident on its own did not change me, but it was the start of looking, I wanted to know if there could be any truth here. Explaining the suffering in the world and God is probably the most brought up subject. And you have probably had the same answer. A fallen world right? Anyway, there is no reason anybody could not receive healing, wherever they are. God will meet us on an indiviua basis. Interesting that you put developed world. In the undeveloped world, sickness and disease is greater surely due to poorer hygiene, education, money, poor government rule etc so by that you will see more suffering anyway. God really wants us to be the ones to help them and make the difference, and of course many people are doing great work. Gus, please explain the portion of your statement that I have highlighted. God is both omnipotent and omniscient, is he not? Then it would require less relative effort for him to heal everyone that is sick, everywhere in the world, permanently, than it took me to type this post. Why the fuck would God rely on human beings to do this? Is he all-powerful, but just stupid, or something? To take it further, if god is omnipotent and omniscient, then he cannot rely on humans because everything is under his direct control. There can be no human free will if god is all-powerful/knowing. Notice also that omnipotence and omniscience create a paradox; god CANNOT rely on humans (but he could if he were all powerful, right?). But if he were all powerful/knowing then everything is under his direct control thus it would never be accurate to say that he is RELYING on anyone but himself. This makes omniscience and omnipotence logically incoherent concepts. What's more, they make everything in life arbitrary, products of nothing more than a supreme being's whim. Therefore omniscience and omnipotence renders our free will an illusion and renders life ultimately meaningless (funny that Christians assert the contrary). We also can never be justly praised or blamed for anything because god is directly responsible for everything that has ever happened and everything everyone has ever done. "To take it further, if god is omnipotent and omniscient, then he cannot rely on humans because everything is under his direct control. There can be no human free will if god is all-powerful/knowing." Because God is everywhere and all knowing..... why do you think everything is under his direct control? Because he is omnipotent, just as Neverland mentioned. You left that part out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironhorse Posted June 30, 2014 Share Posted June 30, 2014 I scoffed at this, but nonetheless it got me thinking. Either she is A. Lying B.Crazy or C. Telling the truth. If she lying, she going against the very faith she said she believed in. She did not seem crazy, she was a student studying psychology. So that left me with the possibibtly something happened. I think are more than those 3 options. I also think the possibly that she was mistaken or lying can't be discounted. Just because she had a faith in god, doesn't make her incapable of lying or exaggerating. She had every reason to interpret events in the way she did, if that's what really happened. A photo isn't necessarily sufficient proof of anything. The most likely explanation is that she had surgery (especially since there were scars) and for whatever reason wanted it to appear like a healing. How do you explain all the suffering in the world, if there is a god who heals people? Why would a loving god only heal the occasional broken arm in the developed world? Hi Some of you have said similar things here, and yes, I don't doubt they are valid arguments. Thats why that incident on its own did not change me, but it was the start of looking, I wanted to know if there could be any truth here. Explaining the suffering in the world and God is probably the most brought up subject. And you have probably had the same answer. A fallen world right? Anyway, there is no reason anybody could not receive healing, wherever they are. God will meet us on an indiviua basis. Interesting that you put developed world. In the undeveloped world, sickness and disease is greater surely due to poorer hygiene, education, money, poor government rule etc so by that you will see more suffering anyway. God really wants us to be the ones to help them and make the difference, and of course many people are doing great work. Gus, please explain the portion of your statement that I have highlighted. God is both omnipotent and omniscient, is he not? Then it would require less relative effort for him to heal everyone that is sick, everywhere in the world, permanently, than it took me to type this post. Why the fuck would God rely on human beings to do this? Is he all-powerful, but just stupid, or something? To take it further, if god is omnipotent and omniscient, then he cannot rely on humans because everything is under his direct control. There can be no human free will if god is all-powerful/knowing. Notice also that omnipotence and omniscience create a paradox; god CANNOT rely on humans (but he could if he were all powerful, right?). But if he were all powerful/knowing then everything is under his direct control thus it would never be accurate to say that he is RELYING on anyone but himself. This makes omniscience and omnipotence logically incoherent concepts. What's more, they make everything in life arbitrary, products of nothing more than a supreme being's whim. Therefore omniscience and omnipotence renders our free will an illusion and renders life ultimately meaningless (funny that Christians assert the contrary). We also can never be justly praised or blamed for anything because god is directly responsible for everything that has ever happened and everything everyone has ever done. "To take it further, if god is omnipotent and omniscient, then he cannot rely on humans because everything is under his direct control. There can be no human free will if god is all-powerful/knowing." Because God is everywhere and all knowing..... why do you think everything is under his direct control? Because he is omnipotent, just as Neverland mentioned. You left that part out. Having unlimited power does not mean it is used for all things. That does not change the point I was making. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted June 30, 2014 Share Posted June 30, 2014 Having unlimited power does not mean it is used for all things. That does not change the point I was making. Even Spiderman can figure this out. Why is Spiderman superior to your God? With great power comes great responsibility. God is everywhere. So every crime that happened happened right in front of God. God is all knowing. So God knew every crime would happen before God create our universe. God has unlimited power. So God is responsible for all the evil that happened everywhere. God is evil. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neverlandrut Posted June 30, 2014 Share Posted June 30, 2014 I scoffed at this, but nonetheless it got me thinking. Either she is A. Lying B.Crazy or C. Telling the truth. If she lying, she going against the very faith she said she believed in. She did not seem crazy, she was a student studying psychology. So that left me with the possibibtly something happened. I think are more than those 3 options. I also think the possibly that she was mistaken or lying can't be discounted. Just because she had a faith in god, doesn't make her incapable of lying or exaggerating. She had every reason to interpret events in the way she did, if that's what really happened. A photo isn't necessarily sufficient proof of anything. The most likely explanation is that she had surgery (especially since there were scars) and for whatever reason wanted it to appear like a healing. How do you explain all the suffering in the world, if there is a god who heals people? Why would a loving god only heal the occasional broken arm in the developed world? Hi Some of you have said similar things here, and yes, I don't doubt they are valid arguments. Thats why that incident on its own did not change me, but it was the start of looking, I wanted to know if there could be any truth here. Explaining the suffering in the world and God is probably the most brought up subject. And you have probably had the same answer. A fallen world right? Anyway, there is no reason anybody could not receive healing, wherever they are. God will meet us on an indiviua basis. Interesting that you put developed world. In the undeveloped world, sickness and disease is greater surely due to poorer hygiene, education, money, poor government rule etc so by that you will see more suffering anyway. God really wants us to be the ones to help them and make the difference, and of course many people are doing great work. Gus, please explain the portion of your statement that I have highlighted. God is both omnipotent and omniscient, is he not? Then it would require less relative effort for him to heal everyone that is sick, everywhere in the world, permanently, than it took me to type this post. Why the fuck would God rely on human beings to do this? Is he all-powerful, but just stupid, or something? To take it further, if god is omnipotent and omniscient, then he cannot rely on humans because everything is under his direct control. There can be no human free will if god is all-powerful/knowing. Notice also that omnipotence and omniscience create a paradox; god CANNOT rely on humans (but he could if he were all powerful, right?). But if he were all powerful/knowing then everything is under his direct control thus it would never be accurate to say that he is RELYING on anyone but himself. This makes omniscience and omnipotence logically incoherent concepts. What's more, they make everything in life arbitrary, products of nothing more than a supreme being's whim. Therefore omniscience and omnipotence renders our free will an illusion and renders life ultimately meaningless (funny that Christians assert the contrary). We also can never be justly praised or blamed for anything because god is directly responsible for everything that has ever happened and everything everyone has ever done. "To take it further, if god is omnipotent and omniscient, then he cannot rely on humans because everything is under his direct control. There can be no human free will if god is all-powerful/knowing." Because God is everywhere and all knowing..... why do you think everything is under his direct control? If god is all knowing and all powerful then everything must necessarily be under his direct control. It would be impossible that anything could happen that is not his direct will and intention. If he is all powerful then he controls everything. Even if he sets certain things in lotion and does not "directly" intervene," it is still his direct plan that caused it to happen. Therefore, there is nothing anyone can do that god did not directly plan and intend. Therefore, we can not be justly blamed for anything because it was god's doing. Let me ask you something. How can you think everything is not under his direct control if he is all powerful and knowing? Can god build a mountain so big that he cannot move it? Omnipotence in one being is logically incoherent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neverlandrut Posted June 30, 2014 Share Posted June 30, 2014 I scoffed at this, but nonetheless it got me thinking. Either she is A. Lying B.Crazy or C. Telling the truth. If she lying, she going against the very faith she said she believed in. She did not seem crazy, she was a student studying psychology. So that left me with the possibibtly something happened. I think are more than those 3 options. I also think the possibly that she was mistaken or lying can't be discounted. Just because she had a faith in god, doesn't make her incapable of lying or exaggerating. She had every reason to interpret events in the way she did, if that's what really happened. A photo isn't necessarily sufficient proof of anything. The most likely explanation is that she had surgery (especially since there were scars) and for whatever reason wanted it to appear like a healing. How do you explain all the suffering in the world, if there is a god who heals people? Why would a loving god only heal the occasional broken arm in the developed world? Hi Some of you have said similar things here, and yes, I don't doubt they are valid arguments. Thats why that incident on its own did not change me, but it was the start of looking, I wanted to know if there could be any truth here. Explaining the suffering in the world and God is probably the most brought up subject. And you have probably had the same answer. A fallen world right? Anyway, there is no reason anybody could not receive healing, wherever they are. God will meet us on an indiviua basis. Interesting that you put developed world. In the undeveloped world, sickness and disease is greater surely due to poorer hygiene, education, money, poor government rule etc so by that you will see more suffering anyway. God really wants us to be the ones to help them and make the difference, and of course many people are doing great work. Gus, please explain the portion of your statement that I have highlighted. God is both omnipotent and omniscient, is he not? Then it would require less relative effort for him to heal everyone that is sick, everywhere in the world, permanently, than it took me to type this post. Why the fuck would God rely on human beings to do this? Is he all-powerful, but just stupid, or something? To take it further, if god is omnipotent and omniscient, then he cannot rely on humans because everything is under his direct control. There can be no human free will if god is all-powerful/knowing. Notice also that omnipotence and omniscience create a paradox; god CANNOT rely on humans (but he could if he were all powerful, right?). But if he were all powerful/knowing then everything is under his direct control thus it would never be accurate to say that he is RELYING on anyone but himself. This makes omniscience and omnipotence logically incoherent concepts. What's more, they make everything in life arbitrary, products of nothing more than a supreme being's whim. Therefore omniscience and omnipotence renders our free will an illusion and renders life ultimately meaningless (funny that Christians assert the contrary). We also can never be justly praised or blamed for anything because god is directly responsible for everything that has ever happened and everything everyone has ever done. "To take it further, if god is omnipotent and omniscient, then he cannot rely on humans because everything is under his direct control. There can be no human free will if god is all-powerful/knowing." Because God is everywhere and all knowing..... why do you think everything is under his direct control? Because he is omnipotent, just as Neverland mentioned. You left that part out. Having unlimited power does not mean it is used for all things. That does not change the point I was making. It doesn't matter if his power is used or not. If he is all powerful, all knowing, and the creator of all, then he is responsible for absolutely everything that happens in the world. Everything that happens must be his direct will and intention, including all the evil in the world and every thought and action of every person. It is all his plan and doing. The real problem is that omnipotence, omniscience, and omnibenevolence are in direct conflict with the god described in the bible. God said he had to go down to Sodom to see for himself that Sodom was as evil as reported. If he were all knowing, he would have already known. It would have been pointless for this scripture to have been intended in any metaphorical sense. God made Adam and Eve, knowing ahead of time they would sin, and since he is all powerful as well, then that means he deliberately designed it to happen that way, knowing he would have to send billions of people to hell for not believing the right thing. He had the power and knowledge to make it otherwise and did not, so god is responsible for sin, period. It can be no other way if he is all knowing and powerful. Believing bible god to be all knowing, all powerful, and all loving leads to nothing but logical contradictions. What's worse, is that this also means that everything in life is arbitrary. There can be no true justice and no true morality because it's all just stuff god made up according to his whim. This means that we are just god's play things for his amusement, which makes the notion that he could rightfully judge us for our actions and levy just rewards and punishments patently absurd. Do you honestly believe, as most Christians do, that the only way for all powerful god to forgive us our sins was to come as a man and sacrifice himself to himself to appease his own wrath against sin? The sin he is responsible for? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted June 30, 2014 Author Super Moderator Share Posted June 30, 2014 Whether god uses his omnipotence, omniscience, or omnipresence to interfere in the minutiae of our daily lives is somewhat beside the point. Whether he is all powerful but only uses his power on a limited scope is irrelevant. "god" doesn't actually DO anything in any demonstrable way. That is what matters; and that is the only thing that matters. Why do people pray to god? Because they trust he will DO something. Sure, after the fact, they may come to terms with the idea that it just wasn't god's will or that he did answer the prayer. But NOT because god actually DID anything; only because they have to reconcile their faith with the disappointment that god did nothing for them. Why, Ironhorse, do you think "Sorrow" prayed for healing? I know why, because I was one of the people who annointed her with oil and laid hands on her. She prayed because she trusted god to heal her; she trusted god to DO something, not for her, but rather for her husband and her small daughter. god betrayed her trust. god let her die. god let her daughter grow up without a mother. Is it more logical to believe that god would do nothing; or is it more logical to conclude that there is no god and that is why nothing happens when people pray? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironhorse Posted July 10, 2014 Share Posted July 10, 2014 Whether god uses his omnipotence, omniscience, or omnipresence to interfere in the minutiae of our daily lives is somewhat beside the point. Whether he is all powerful but only uses his power on a limited scope is irrelevant. "god" doesn't actually DO anything in any demonstrable way. That is what matters; and that is the only thing that matters. Why do people pray to god? Because they trust he will DO something. Sure, after the fact, they may come to terms with the idea that it just wasn't god's will or that he did answer the prayer. But NOT because god actually DID anything; only because they have to reconcile their faith with the disappointment that god did nothing for them. Why, Ironhorse, do you think "Sorrow" prayed for healing? I know why, because I was one of the people who annointed her with oil and laid hands on her. She prayed because she trusted god to heal her; she trusted god to DO something, not for her, but rather for her husband and her small daughter. god betrayed her trust. god let her die. god let her daughter grow up without a mother. Is it more logical to believe that god would do nothing; or is it more logical to conclude that there is no god and that is why nothing happens when people pray? "Is it more logical to believe that god would do nothing; or is it more logical to conclude that there is no god and that is why nothing happens when people pray?" I also have several experiences in life where prayers for healing were unanswered. I have events in my life where tragedy struck and killed. One was a friend of mine who was diagnosed with cancer. I prayed and prayed for his healing. He passed away at the age of 24. I'm not God. I don't know why some of us live many years and some of us are struck by disease or accidents early in our lives. I don't know why. I still believe in God. I still pray. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RipVanWinkle Posted July 10, 2014 Share Posted July 10, 2014 "I'm not God. I don't know why some of us live many years and some of us are struck by disease or accidents early in our lives. I don't know why. I still believe in God. I still pray." ironhorse That's just the point ironhorse. Facts staring you in the face makes no difference to you or to anyone hooked on a myth.Many of us here did the same thing until we finally, after being fooled for years, forced ourselves to look truth squarely in the eyes. It's not easy to do because of the fear drilled into us. But we still prefer the truth about Santa Claus and god, rather than lies. bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironhorse Posted July 10, 2014 Share Posted July 10, 2014 "I'm not God. I don't know why some of us live many years and some of us are struck by disease or accidents early in our lives. I don't know why. I still believe in God. I still pray." ironhorse That's just the point ironhorse. Facts staring you in the face makes no difference to you or to anyone hooked on a myth.Many of us here did the same thing until we finally, after being fooled for years, forced ourselves to look truth squarely in the eyes. It's not easy to do because of the fear drilled into us. But we still prefer the truth about Santa Claus and god, rather than lies. bill It is the point and it is where we disagree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pawn Posted July 10, 2014 Share Posted July 10, 2014 "I'm not Santa clause. I don't know why some of us live many years and get lots of presents on Christmas Day, and some of us are struck by disease or accidents early in our lives, and get nothing for Christmas, because they are impoverished children. I still believe in Santa Clause.. I still make a list every year for Christmas." ironhorsefucker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagainathiest Posted July 10, 2014 Share Posted July 10, 2014 Whether god uses his omnipotence, omniscience, or omnipresence to interfere in the minutiae of our daily lives is somewhat beside the point. Whether he is all powerful but only uses his power on a limited scope is irrelevant. "god" doesn't actually DO anything in any demonstrable way. That is what matters; and that is the only thing that matters. Why do people pray to god? Because they trust he will DO something. Sure, after the fact, they may come to terms with the idea that it just wasn't god's will or that he did answer the prayer. But NOT because god actually DID anything; only because they have to reconcile their faith with the disappointment that god did nothing for them. Why, Ironhorse, do you think "Sorrow" prayed for healing? I know why, because I was one of the people who annointed her with oil and laid hands on her. She prayed because she trusted god to heal her; she trusted god to DO something, not for her, but rather for her husband and her small daughter. god betrayed her trust. god let her die. god let her daughter grow up without a mother. Is it more logical to believe that god would do nothing; or is it more logical to conclude that there is no god and that is why nothing happens when people pray? "Is it more logical to believe that god would do nothing; or is it more logical to conclude that there is no god and that is why nothing happens when people pray?" ONE AT A TIME, IRONHORSE! Practice what you preach and stop asking new questions when you've got outstanding ones to deal with! I also have several experiences in life where prayers for healing were unanswered. I have events in my life where tragedy struck and killed. One was a friend of mine who was diagnosed with cancer. I prayed and prayed for his healing. He passed away at the age of 24. I'm not God. I don't know why some of us live many years and some of us are struck by disease or accidents early in our lives. I don't know why. I still believe in God. I still pray. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironhorse Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 Whether god uses his omnipotence, omniscience, or omnipresence to interfere in the minutiae of our daily lives is somewhat beside the point. Whether he is all powerful but only uses his power on a limited scope is irrelevant. "god" doesn't actually DO anything in any demonstrable way. That is what matters; and that is the only thing that matters. Why do people pray to god? Because they trust he will DO something. Sure, after the fact, they may come to terms with the idea that it just wasn't god's will or that he did answer the prayer. But NOT because god actually DID anything; only because they have to reconcile their faith with the disappointment that god did nothing for them. Why, Ironhorse, do you think "Sorrow" prayed for healing? I know why, because I was one of the people who annointed her with oil and laid hands on her. She prayed because she trusted god to heal her; she trusted god to DO something, not for her, but rather for her husband and her small daughter. god betrayed her trust. god let her die. god let her daughter grow up without a mother. Is it more logical to believe that god would do nothing; or is it more logical to conclude that there is no god and that is why nothing happens when people pray? "Is it more logical to believe that god would do nothing; or is it more logical to conclude that there is no god and that is why nothing happens when people pray?" ONE AT A TIME, IRONHORSE! Practice what you preach and stop asking new questions when you've got outstanding ones to deal with! I also have several experiences in life where prayers for healing were unanswered. I have events in my life where tragedy struck and killed. One was a friend of mine who was diagnosed with cancer. I prayed and prayed for his healing. He passed away at the age of 24. I'm not God. I don't know why some of us live many years and some of us are struck by disease or accidents early in our lives. I don't know why. I still believe in God. I still pray. What question did I not answer? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Marty Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 Whether god uses his omnipotence, omniscience, or omnipresence to interfere in the minutiae of our daily lives is somewhat beside the point. Whether he is all powerful but only uses his power on a limited scope is irrelevant. "god" doesn't actually DO anything in any demonstrable way. That is what matters; and that is the only thing that matters. Why do people pray to god? Because they trust he will DO something. Sure, after the fact, they may come to terms with the idea that it just wasn't god's will or that he did answer the prayer. But NOT because god actually DID anything; only because they have to reconcile their faith with the disappointment that god did nothing for them. Why, Ironhorse, do you think "Sorrow" prayed for healing? I know why, because I was one of the people who annointed her with oil and laid hands on her. She prayed because she trusted god to heal her; she trusted god to DO something, not for her, but rather for her husband and her small daughter. god betrayed her trust. god let her die. god let her daughter grow up without a mother. Is it more logical to believe that god would do nothing; or is it more logical to conclude that there is no god and that is why nothing happens when people pray? "Is it more logical to believe that god would do nothing; or is it more logical to conclude that there is no god and that is why nothing happens when people pray?" ONE AT A TIME, IRONHORSE! Practice what you preach and stop asking new questions when you've got outstanding ones to deal with! I also have several experiences in life where prayers for healing were unanswered. I have events in my life where tragedy struck and killed. One was a friend of mine who was diagnosed with cancer. I prayed and prayed for his healing. He passed away at the age of 24. I'm not God. I don't know why some of us live many years and some of us are struck by disease or accidents early in our lives. I don't know why. I still believe in God. I still pray. What question did I not answer? Every fucking question that has been asked to you by BAA, and many, other people. You obviously have not been paying attention. Why don't you just shut the fuck up and go fuck yourself? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted July 14, 2014 Author Super Moderator Share Posted July 14, 2014 Whether god uses his omnipotence, omniscience, or omnipresence to interfere in the minutiae of our daily lives is somewhat beside the point. Whether he is all powerful but only uses his power on a limited scope is irrelevant. "god" doesn't actually DO anything in any demonstrable way. That is what matters; and that is the only thing that matters. Why do people pray to god? Because they trust he will DO something. Sure, after the fact, they may come to terms with the idea that it just wasn't god's will or that he did answer the prayer. But NOT because god actually DID anything; only because they have to reconcile their faith with the disappointment that god did nothing for them. Why, Ironhorse, do you think "Sorrow" prayed for healing? I know why, because I was one of the people who annointed her with oil and laid hands on her. She prayed because she trusted god to heal her; she trusted god to DO something, not for her, but rather for her husband and her small daughter. god betrayed her trust. god let her die. god let her daughter grow up without a mother. Is it more logical to believe that god would do nothing; or is it more logical to conclude that there is no god and that is why nothing happens when people pray? "Is it more logical to believe that god would do nothing; or is it more logical to conclude that there is no god and that is why nothing happens when people pray?" ONE AT A TIME, IRONHORSE! Practice what you preach and stop asking new questions when you've got outstanding ones to deal with! I also have several experiences in life where prayers for healing were unanswered. I have events in my life where tragedy struck and killed. One was a friend of mine who was diagnosed with cancer. I prayed and prayed for his healing. He passed away at the age of 24. I'm not God. I don't know why some of us live many years and some of us are struck by disease or accidents early in our lives. I don't know why. I still believe in God. I still pray. What question did I not answer? The question highlighted in red. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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