Anyone Else Frustrated By Secular Skeptics Who Don't Understand Theology But Criticize It Anyway?

[Aggie]

I see more liberal Christians use the OT law argument as part of their argument for Christianity too.  Basically, OT is invalid now so don't argue from that.  NT talks of love, Paul was not referring to gay marriage, but gay predatory sex, etc.

 

Of course, you still have the problem of (1) all the people supposedly filled with the Holy Spirit didn't know what they were talking about for centuries upon centuries (2) at one time it was in fact completely OK to stone homosexuals to death-- that's only bad NOW you see...

 

The comments after this article are really interesting... 

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/johnshore/2012/04/the-best-case-for-the-bible-not-condemning-homosexuality/

[Blood]

 

Tyler, I'm going to call you out on this one.  If you say that Rom. 1 is the primary reason why christians disapprove of gays, then you, along with the rest of christianity, take the passage out of context.

 

1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,

² (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,)

³ Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

⁴ And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

⁵ By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:

⁶ Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ:

⁷ To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

⁸ First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.

⁹ For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of his Son, that without ceasing I make mention of you always in my prayers;

¹⁰ Making request, if by any means now at length I might have a prosperous journey by the will of God to come unto you.

¹¹ For I long to see you, that I may impart unto you some spiritual gift, to the end ye may be established;

¹² That is, that I may be comforted together with you by the mutual faith both of you and me.

¹³ Now I would not have you ignorant, brethren, that oftentimes I purposed to come unto you, (but was let hitherto,) that I might have some fruit among you also, even as among other Gentiles.

¹⁴ I am debtor both to the Greeks, and to the Barbarians; both to the wise, and to the unwise.

¹⁵ So, as much as in me is, I am ready to preach the gospel to you that are at Rome also.

¹⁶ For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

---blah blah blah fuckity fuck fuck fuckness... Paul takes his time getting into it.

 

¹⁷ For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

---the just shall live by what faith?  oh right, faith in Yeshitwa.

 

¹⁸ For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

¹⁹ Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

 

²⁰ For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

²¹ Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

---Take these verses.  Here we see the bible stating that god showed men 'the truth' about himself.  But evidently some folks, even though everyone knows the bible god, did not glorify him.  So their hearts were darkened.

²² Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

²³ And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

---22 and 23 clearly states that the foolish folks changed the glory of god into an image -biblical idolatry 101

 

²⁴ Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

²⁵ Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

---because of their idolatry in 22 and 23, bible god gave them up to lust, to dishonor their bodies between themselves.

What?  Yes, that's correct.  Because of their idol worship, god gave them up to orgies.

 

²⁶ For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

²⁷ And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

---Please note that 26 and 27 has the same reason and justification as 24 and 25.  Because of idolatry, god gave those idol worshipers to become lesbians and gays.

 

²⁸ And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

²⁹ Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

³⁰ Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,

³¹ Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:

³² Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

---The same reason is still used to justify 28-32.  Because some folks turned to idols, they were given up to be murderers, liers, unmerciful, and without natural affection. 

 

Idolatry was the reason that god gave people up to homosexuality, and those homosexuals were apparently also murderers and without mercy.

 

Now... Think about this.  Does this really make any damn sense?

 

 

As I've argued before, Romans 1 is not a real letter written about real contemporary events. It's a cento of various OT/LXX injunctions, in which something new is created that nonetheless sounds old and "Biblical." Contrary to all Biblical scholarship, Romans 1 is a slander against Jews, not "Pagans" -- but not contemporary Jews. Rather, the "Jews" that are the subject of the Pauline writers' hate speech in this and other polemics are the historical Jews/Israelites of the OT. 

 

 

 

¹⁸ For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men [Jews], who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

 

¹⁹ Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. [God's revelation was to the Jews.]

 

²⁰ For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they [Jews] are without excuse: [They are without excuse because, unlike 'pagans,' they have known God's revelation. cf. Wisdom of Solomon 13:8-9 'not even they are to be excused']

 

²¹ Because that, when they knew God [Adam & Eve in the Garden of Eden], they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. [ref. endless OT passages about the Israelites hearts becoming "hardened" or "darkened" against God.]

 

²² Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, [Garden of Eden pericope, Genesis 3:1-7]

 

²³ And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

[Jeremiah 2:11 "But my people [israelites] have exchanged their glorious God for worthless idols."Psalm 106:20 "They [israelites] exchanged their glorious God for an image of a bull, which eats grass." cf. Deuteronomy 4:15-18.]

 

 

²⁴ Wherefore God also gave them [Adam & Eve] up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

 

²⁵ Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature [the snake in the Garden of Eden] more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

 

²⁶ For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: [Psalm 106:39 "They defiled themselves by what they did; by their deeds they prostituted themselves."]

 

²⁷ And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. 

 

²⁸ And even as they [Jews] did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

 

[Psalm 106:35 "they mingled with the nations and adopted their customs."]

 

²⁹ Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

 

³⁰ Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,

 

³¹ Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:

 

³² Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

[all echoes of Wisdom of Solomon 14:22-31. Note especially "covenant breakers."]

[Roz]

(snip)

 

Tell that to the christians who say that it's real, their god's real, so their laws must be obeyed.

[DoubtingNate]

The funny thing about that verse in Timothy is that is unclear what is meant by 'Scripture,' since there were all kinds of 'Scripture' floating around and it would not be canonized for another 200 years or so.

 

If the church had accepted the gospel of Thomas or Judas but discarded Matthew or John, would this verse still apply to those books instead?

[★ Citsonga ★]

The funny thing about that verse in Timothy is that is unclear what is meant by 'Scripture,' since there were all kinds of 'Scripture' floating around and it would not be canonized for another 200 years or so.

 

If the church had accepted the gospel of Thomas or Judas but discarded Matthew or John, would this verse still apply to those books instead?

 

Exactly. I think we can safely say that the canonized Hebrew scriptures were definitely being referred to here, but whatever else (if anything else) may have been intended, we simply cannot know. It definitely can't mean the entire Bible as we have it today, though, since some of it hadn't been written yet and there wasn't any New Testament canon yet. It seems that a lot of Christians can't grasp that (some probably don't even realize that the Bible didn't drop out of heaven as one complete volume). It's mind-boggling how many times I've heard the "scripture" reference in Timothy erroneously applied to our modern Bible as a whole.

[DoubtingNate]

It really is bizarre; in fact the whole concept of 'inerrency' is bizarre and did not even exist before the 18th century.. when people started figuring out that some things in the Bible are actually impossible.

[pratt]

 

The funny thing about that verse in Timothy is that is unclear what is meant by 'Scripture,' since there were all kinds of 'Scripture' floating around and it would not be canonized for another 200 years or so.

 

If the church had accepted the gospel of Thomas or Judas but discarded Matthew or John, would this verse still apply to those books instead?

 

 

Exactly. I think we can safely say that the canonized Hebrew scriptures were definitely being referred to here, but whatever else (if anything else) may have been intended, we simply cannot know. It definitely can't mean the entire Bible as we have it today, though, since some of it hadn't been written yet and there wasn't any New Testament canon yet. It seems that a lot of Christians can't grasp that (some probably don't even realize that the Bible didn't drop out of heaven as one complete volume). It's mind-boggling how many times I've heard the "scripture" reference in Timothy erroneously applied to our modern Bible as a whole.

god forsaw the need of getting the church in the 3rd/4th century churches to come out with the criteria for the canonisation of the bible, and led by the holy ghost to give the world 66 books as the complete word of god,,,, if you don't believe, you can go to hell,,,,,,

 

oooooos sorry, if you dont believe jesus as prescribed in the final compilation of the books, you can go to hell,,,,

[★ Citsonga ★]

^^^