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Goodbye Jesus

So, You're Going To Hell


Castiel233

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How is it that we don't see His love for us?

 

gates+of+hell+lake+of+fire.jpg

 

It is amusing how Jesus and those that decided to serve him are portrayed as "light" and are all beautiful, while Jesus was the one sadistic enough to build Hell and program us to sin so that we would deserve Hell by default. As for those that are serving him, they only began to do so to avoid being tortured in Hell (because of selfish, cowardly reasons).

 

Though the artwork there is awesome, I do feel like it would be more accurate if all of those people up in Heaven were all wearing dog collars and were on their knees singing worship songs to Jesus while he watched the people in Hell burn with a grin on his face.

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Hank 3's take on the subject:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lPI_WEMcGIQ

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^^^So, you are ok with God burning us, as long as it isn't for eternity?

 

No not really. The concept of hell etc has been a struggle for me. I have prayed about it and pressed God on it.

Did I have an answer? Yes, I believe I did. I started to see more of Gods love. So much so, that the contradiction of hell became stronger, and now I was satrting to lose the shackles of this concept.

 

Does God burn people then? Only today I burnt myself on the bbq. In a split second, it hurt like crazy. Does God the, the God of love throw people into an unbearable hot fire?

 

The holy spirit is also called a fire, so it could be a spiritual fire of some kind.

 

I'll come back to this as getting angry looks from the missus that i'm on the computer still, i'll tidy up my thoughts!

 

 

Gus, you seem like a nice guy.  I'm interested in what you might have to say, but it's very unlikely that I haven't heard it before.  If you are just going to "research" and come back with some cut & paste apologetics, then don't be surprised if members here become frustrated.  

 

We already have a christian here that dumps and runs.

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The biggest lie of all is that God loves us. He clearly does not, because:

 

The default position for all humans (including children) is eternal damnation

 

God sends people a strong delusion so they will believe a lie

 

Jesus speaks in parables so He doesn’t have to save us

 

People are born in times and places where they have no chance of hearing the “Good News”

 

Will send us to eternal torture after we die for inheriting a crime committed by some one else

 

God "laughs" at the vain and futile efforts of man to escape from the control of his laws and throw off his dominion 

 

God is described in the Bible as:

 

A man of war

 

A being that allows and promotes slavery

 

Asks for and receives animal sacrifices

 

A jealous deity who will devour the world

 

Owns and will use a sword

 

Owns Arrows which he will make red with human blood

 

 

Thoughts........?

what kind of god is asking a mere human to be as perfect as an angel?wait, even angels (lucifers and his angels armies) has fallen right? So let me ask again, what kind of god asking a mere mortal human to be as perfect as god (sinless)? 

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The biggest lie of all is that God loves us. He clearly does not, because:

 

The default position for all humans (including children) is eternal damnation

 

God sends people a strong delusion so they will believe a lie

 

Jesus speaks in parables so He doesn’t have to save us

 

People are born in times and places where they have no chance of hearing the “Good News”

 

Will send us to eternal torture after we die for inheriting a crime committed by some one else

 

God "laughs" at the vain and futile efforts of man to escape from the control of his laws and throw off his dominion 

 

God is described in the Bible as:

 

A man of war

 

A being that allows and promotes slavery

 

Asks for and receives animal sacrifices

 

A jealous deity who will devour the world

 

Owns and will use a sword

 

Owns Arrows which he will make red with human blood

 

 

Thoughts........?

To be, possibly the biggest lie of all has been through the Church over history teaching on the concept of hell.

 

There is a possible reason for this, as the Church grew in power, it was taught too keep it's congregation in line.

 

I don't see how a Christian can say God is love and then sit at ease with the idea of eternal hell. In fact many don't but still say 'well Gods ways are not our ways', which is a cop out.

 

Does the bible say there is a hell? If you want it too, you could select verses to argue that.

 

But does it really say that? The way I read it, there is either eternal life for the believer, or eternal death (nothing) for the unbeliever. I guess for those who don't believe in God or the afterlife that makes no real difference to them?

I do believe that there will be some kind of justice met out though. After all, if a criminal  got away scot free in this life, would it not be unjust of God not deal with them after?

 

 

Does the bible say there is a hell? If you want it too, you could select verses to argue that.

 

 

A better question would be to ask.. how did verses about hell get into the Bible in the first place?

 

Short answer: other religions/mythologies.

 

Christianity is not some isolated, unique revelation directly from God to man; it has accrued over millennial and borrowed generously from its contemporaries (usually more advanced socities with older and better literature).

 

There is actually very, very little about OT Judaism or Christianity that is purely original, and that includes hell.

 

Do you believe in the Egyptian, Persian or Greek versions of hell?  

 

So most hell-atheists just go one hell further.

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Does God burn people then? Only today I burnt myself on the bbq. In a split second, it hurt like crazy. Does God the, the God of love throw people into an unbearable hot fire?

!

 

 

Having read a burnt woman's account of her ordeal, I can certify that one minutes' worth of being on fire feels like an eternity.  I have read the bible at face value.  It is clearly, plain as day describing a place of agony and a place of burning.  That cannot be argued away.  You can argue that it will go on for X amount of time rather than eternity.  But IMO it is preferable never to be born than to be on fire for 10 minutes.  The bible describes physical and psychological torture, no matter how you slice it.  Does the "God of love" throw people into unbearable hot fire?  Remember 9/11?

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Bottom line is this (as I understand)

 

Salvation is rarely granted, God prefers damnation for the vast majority of his human creations. (Many are called, few are chosen) We are made to worship, glorify God and obey Him in all matters

 

The Bible makes it very, very clear, He is violent, jealous and extremely murderous.

 

Christians, not likely to find much of the hardcore teachings in both the OT and NT pleasant, naturally ignore them, and if Christianity is true, they are going to burn along with everyone else.

 

A God, who has his own Child put to death on the cross, is hardly likely to be impressed because believers go to church once a week, or stick money in a collection plate.

 

The scheme of salvation to me, appears to be down to luck on our part, you need:

 

            To be born at a time the Bible was finished (around 300Ad, I think)

 

            Have access to it

 

            Believe in it, with all your heart, and have total faith

 

            Be selected by God (Very Important)

 

            Be infused with the inner witness of the Holy Sprit

 

            Obey all 631 commandants 

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A couple of points I'd like to add. The idea that hellfire is not forever seems to defend god, and say that the reason he is merciful is because he put a time limit on someone's torture, when he could EASILY have totally made it longer, therefore mercy.

 

I know there is a verse that says that there shall be no more remembrance of those who were destroyed in mercy, er, I mean hellfire. So all those lucky folks who managed to garner enough frequent xtian miles to make it to heaven may not remember their own children, mothers, fathers, siblings, friends etc? This is mercy because the chosen ones won't have to think about how he torutured them and they're just gone? Like they never mattered? He creates them with a destiy, and then erases them frome existence, but you know, he didn't want to..

 

I was always bothered by the story of Judas. It is made very clear, even by Jesus' own words, that he was born to do what he did. Somehow it's still Judas' fault.

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The problem of Hell is a very uncomfortable one, being burnt alive forever, purely on the basis of what you think, makes the idea of a God of love and mercy an extreme mockery 

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I wonder how many Christians realize this is what drives many of us from the faith? These moral failings, from an alleged "Moral first cause," (popular apologetic argument for God) don't square.

I remember when I had a "coming back to the Lord" in the late 90s, a woman in the Church in an effort, her opinion, to describe God's goodness to me, said Ted Bundy was in heaven because he accepted Jesus. I did possibly the most unholy desecrating thing, in that environment. At very least, I shook her up pretty badly. I asked: "What if his victims hadn't accepted Jesus? What about 12-year-old Leach from Florida? If they failed to accept Jesus, then they are burning in Hell while Ted bundy, their killer, is in heaven?"

... And then a couple years later, I was helping out a little bit in a youth group. A young, very upset girl came up to me, quite terrified. She described how a classmate of hers had declared himself an atheist. And recently died before coming to faith. She believed he is in hell. She was terrified. In fact, before she spoke up and told me what was the matter, I thought we might be dealing with a sexual assault situation or something.

I am ashamed to say, I had no words, and since in this last "coming back to the Lord" effort, I wasn't very convincing to evangelicals, such words as I did have didn't convince her. "You don't understand!" she kept saying. Until I got her help from a more "professional" female youth worker.

Except, I did understand. There was hell right in front of me. I might have been just the sound guy, the backup keyboard player and not all that "spiritual" in the pentecostal sense of the word. No dancing bear here. But I certainly understood. Here was Hell, in all its flames and glory, in the cries and clinging of that desperate little girl.

The Christians claim that yu take your character, your memories, and all that you are, with you into heaven. It could be said, that the state of the Christian friends, in the presence of an egomaniac bronze-aged despot, would be worse than the crazed mental state of the anguished.

It is all well and good for St. Thomas Aquinas to claim that the eternal bliss of the saints is made more complete by the screams of the damned. But is that 15-year-old girl, now 30, going to enjoy heaven more when she gets there and can see her atheist classmate writhing in a lake of fire, flesh crisping and curling, worms eating him alive?

How many of us men on here, raised in the West, taught from boyhood to stand up for the rights of women, could stand in the celestial city and look down on a host of women screaming it out in agony in the fire? Women who were experimented on while giving birth in the Nazi war camps? Single mothers having grown up in drug-affected homes, distrustful of most people, perhaps having been sexually assaulted, now to end it all for eternity in the Lake of Fire? And on one side of us is a flock of soccer moms, perhaps talking about the poor choices those people had made. Worse yet, on the other side, might stand with us Jeffrey Dahmer and Ted Bundy.

The Christians would have it that you bring all your memories, all your character qualities, and all that you are into whichever location after death.

The whole prospect is positively awful, certainly for most humans, either saved or damned. The modern fundamentalist preachers would have us consider Hell. Some of us have.

As part of her grief for my coming out atheist, my wife said she couldn't believe I would be okay with us just dying and nothing afterwards. But, to blink out of existence, and leave behind one's legacy, is far preferable than either the Hell or the Heaven of the Yahweh-centric religions.

That little girl has not left my memory, though I don't remember her name. And it was an assault she suffered, albeit not sexual. The assailant was us, Christianity. Either the die-hards like her youth leaders, or semi-moderate, try-to-be-reasonable types like I was, and were not convincing at all in light of evangelical pride in dogma. We were her assailants.

Fortunately, what she feared will not happen. Unfortunately, she lived as a hell-tortured soul. Quite possibly still does.

And could the great despot in the sky possibly expect her to fall in love with it?

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We learn from the Bible, that God kills children, has pregnant women ripped open, likes the smell of animal sacrifices, kills His own people and creates an endless Hell to torture people forever and the Church has the audacity and the blasphemy to call Him a God of love.

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I wonder how many Christians realize this is what drives many of us from the faith? These moral failings, from an alleged "Moral first cause," (popular apologetic argument for God) don't square.

I remember when I had a "coming back to the Lord" in the late 90s, a woman in the Church in an effort, her opinion, to describe God's goodness to me, said Ted Bundy was in heaven because he accepted Jesus. I did possibly the most unholy desecrating thing, in that environment. At very least, I shook her up pretty badly. I asked: "What if his victims hadn't accepted Jesus? What about 12-year-old Leach from Florida? If they failed to accept Jesus, then they are burning in Hell while Ted bundy, their killer, is in heaven?"

... And then a couple years later, I was helping out a little bit in a youth group. A young, very upset girl came up to me, quite terrified. She described how a classmate of hers had declared himself an atheist. And recently died before coming to faith. She believed he is in hell. She was terrified. In fact, before she spoke up and told me what was the matter, I thought we might be dealing with a sexual assault situation or something.

I am ashamed to say, I had no words, and since in this last "coming back to the Lord" effort, I wasn't very convincing to evangelicals, such words as I did have didn't convince her. "You don't understand!" she kept saying. Until I got her help from a more "professional" female youth worker.

Except, I did understand. There was hell right in front of me. I might have been just the sound guy, the backup keyboard player and not all that "spiritual" in the pentecostal sense of the word. No dancing bear here. But I certainly understood. Here was Hell, in all its flames and glory, in the cries and clinging of that desperate little girl.

The Christians claim that yu take your character, your memories, and all that you are, with you into heaven. It could be said, that the state of the Christian friends, in the presence of an egomaniac bronze-aged despot, would be worse than the crazed mental state of the anguished.

It is all well and good for St. Thomas Aquinas to claim that the eternal bliss of the saints is made more complete by the screams of the damned. But is that 15-year-old girl, now 30, going to enjoy heaven more when she gets there and can see her atheist classmate writhing in a lake of fire, flesh crisping and curling, worms eating him alive?

How many of us men on here, raised in the West, taught from boyhood to stand up for the rights of women, could stand in the celestial city and look down on a host of women screaming it out in agony in the fire? Women who were experimented on while giving birth in the Nazi war camps? Single mothers having grown up in drug-affected homes, distrustful of most people, perhaps having been sexually assaulted, now to end it all for eternity in the Lake of Fire? And on one side of us is a flock of soccer moms, perhaps talking about the poor choices those people had made. Worse yet, on the other side, might stand with us Jeffrey Dahmer and Ted Bundy.

The Christians would have it that you bring all your memories, all your character qualities, and all that you are into whichever location after death.

The whole prospect is positively awful, certainly for most humans, either saved or damned. The modern fundamentalist preachers would have us consider Hell. Some of us have.

As part of her grief for my coming out atheist, my wife said she couldn't believe I would be okay with us just dying and nothing afterwards. But, to blink out of existence, and leave behind one's legacy, is far preferable than either the Hell or the Heaven of the Yahweh-centric religions.

That little girl has not left my memory, though I don't remember her name. And it was an assault she suffered, albeit not sexual. The assailant was us, Christianity. Either the die-hards like her youth leaders, or semi-moderate, try-to-be-reasonable types like I was, and were not convincing at all in light of evangelical pride in dogma. We were her assailants.

Fortunately, what she feared will not happen. Unfortunately, she lived as a hell-tortured soul. Quite possibly still does.

And could the great despot in the sky possibly expect her to fall in love with it?

Beautifully written.

 

Christianity is abusive, highly, highly abusive, that’s even if it’s false. If it’s true, then it’s both abusive on Earth and eternally savage in the hereafter.

 

I do think that Christians, such as WBC, have the stones to proclaim the God as described in the Bible accurately, unlike their more moderate brethren. This is what makes God such a hard sell by moderates, such as Anglicans, to the modern world. They dare not tell the truth about the Bible and the God it portrays, Jealous, Cruel and extremely murderous, throwing nearly ever one into Hell, including children and sweet old ladies.

 

This is a key problem for the Church, the Bible assures us of Gods wrath and hatred of his creations, and the Church dares not pass the message along.

 

Given that the Bible preaches salvation by grace and we have no choice in the matter, one wonders why people bother going to church.

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I wonder how many Christians realize this is what drives many of us from the faith? These moral failings, from an alleged "Moral first cause," (popular apologetic argument for God) don't square.

I remember when I had a "coming back to the Lord" in the late 90s, a woman in the Church in an effort, her opinion, to describe God's goodness to me, said Ted Bundy was in heaven because he accepted Jesus. I did possibly the most unholy desecrating thing, in that environment. At very least, I shook her up pretty badly. I asked: "What if his victims hadn't accepted Jesus? What about 12-year-old Leach from Florida? If they failed to accept Jesus, then they are burning in Hell while Ted bundy, their killer, is in heaven?"

... And then a couple years later, I was helping out a little bit in a youth group. A young, very upset girl came up to me, quite terrified. She described how a classmate of hers had declared himself an atheist. And recently died before coming to faith. She believed he is in hell. She was terrified. In fact, before she spoke up and told me what was the matter, I thought we might be dealing with a sexual assault situation or something.

I am ashamed to say, I had no words, and since in this last "coming back to the Lord" effort, I wasn't very convincing to evangelicals, such words as I did have didn't convince her. "You don't understand!" she kept saying. Until I got her help from a more "professional" female youth worker.

Except, I did understand. There was hell right in front of me. I might have been just the sound guy, the backup keyboard player and not all that "spiritual" in the pentecostal sense of the word. No dancing bear here. But I certainly understood. Here was Hell, in all its flames and glory, in the cries and clinging of that desperate little girl.

The Christians claim that yu take your character, your memories, and all that you are, with you into heaven. It could be said, that the state of the Christian friends, in the presence of an egomaniac bronze-aged despot, would be worse than the crazed mental state of the anguished.

It is all well and good for St. Thomas Aquinas to claim that the eternal bliss of the saints is made more complete by the screams of the damned. But is that 15-year-old girl, now 30, going to enjoy heaven more when she gets there and can see her atheist classmate writhing in a lake of fire, flesh crisping and curling, worms eating him alive?

How many of us men on here, raised in the West, taught from boyhood to stand up for the rights of women, could stand in the celestial city and look down on a host of women screaming it out in agony in the fire? Women who were experimented on while giving birth in the Nazi war camps? Single mothers having grown up in drug-affected homes, distrustful of most people, perhaps having been sexually assaulted, now to end it all for eternity in the Lake of Fire? And on one side of us is a flock of soccer moms, perhaps talking about the poor choices those people had made. Worse yet, on the other side, might stand with us Jeffrey Dahmer and Ted Bundy.

The Christians would have it that you bring all your memories, all your character qualities, and all that you are into whichever location after death.

The whole prospect is positively awful, certainly for most humans, either saved or damned. The modern fundamentalist preachers would have us consider Hell. Some of us have.

As part of her grief for my coming out atheist, my wife said she couldn't believe I would be okay with us just dying and nothing afterwards. But, to blink out of existence, and leave behind one's legacy, is far preferable than either the Hell or the Heaven of the Yahweh-centric religions.

That little girl has not left my memory, though I don't remember her name. And it was an assault she suffered, albeit not sexual. The assailant was us, Christianity. Either the die-hards like her youth leaders, or semi-moderate, try-to-be-reasonable types like I was, and were not convincing at all in light of evangelical pride in dogma. We were her assailants.

Fortunately, what she feared will not happen. Unfortunately, she lived as a hell-tortured soul. Quite possibly still does.

And could the great despot in the sky possibly expect her to fall in love with it?

Beautifully written.

 

Christianity is abusive, highly, highly abusive, that’s even if it’s false. If it’s true, then it’s both abusive on Earth and eternally savage in the hereafter.

 

I do think that Christians, such as WBC, have the stones to proclaim the God as described in the Bible accurately, unlike their more moderate brethren. This is what makes God such a hard sell by moderates, such as Anglicans, to the modern world. They dare not tell the truth about the Bible and the God it portrays, Jealous, Cruel and extremely murderous, throwing nearly ever one into Hell, including children and sweet old ladies.

 

This is a key problem for the Church, the Bible assures us of Gods wrath and hatred of his creations, and the Church dares not pass the message along.

 

Given that the Bible preaches salvation by grace and we have no choice in the matter, one wonders why people bother going to church.

 

That’s the other great point you make, If The Bible is true, than Ted Bundy will go to heaven and his victims will go to Hell, because good works or a loving character seem to mean nothing to the Lord, only our willingness to believe seems to please him.

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This is how Christians inb America, against better military judgment, supported torture during the Bush administration.

Their god administrates torture.

If you do as I did, and present the logical military arguments against use of torture, they will see you as a worldly person. I may have called myself a Christian at that point in my life, and I even got defensive against their claims of doublemindedness and not knowing the mind of god.

In fact, now that I'm out, I agree with them wholeheartedly.

Of course, I'm talking the "true Christians," the evangelicals, in the main, the most fundamentalist. For fellow humanists, my only reason for not drawing up humanitarian arguments against torture is I know far better than to use humanitarian arguments with evangelicals. Any American raised in a Christian home around or after the Fallwellian Explosion of the late 70s through the 80s, knows better. As a child you might be more likely to be scolded or spanked for humanism for making such an argument.

As an adult, try-to-be-reasonable, Christian, I only thought the argument against the use of torture could be logcially explained to them, without triggering the frantic and shrill responses humanitarian arguments produce.

For Christian kiddos on here: Secular humanism is *NOT* communism, certainly not in the gulag or Red Scare sense of the word. You cannot even thank Grandfather Fallwell for that belief. That comes from your great grandfather sir Joseph McCarthy of the Isle of Paranoia.

How does this relate? if your great leader, your god tortures people for eternity, then why not torture enemies for a few months yourself?

You could be said to have the mind of christ by doing so;.

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^^^So, you are ok with God burning us, as long as it isn't for eternity?

 

No not really. The concept of hell etc has been a struggle for me. I have prayed about it and pressed God on it.

Did I have an answer? Yes, I believe I did. I started to see more of Gods love. So much so, that the contradiction of hell became stronger, and now I was satrting to lose the shackles of this concept.

 

Does God burn people then? Only today I burnt myself on the bbq. In a split second, it hurt like crazy. Does God the, the God of love throw people into an unbearable hot fire?

 

The holy spirit is also called a fire, so it could be a spiritual fire of some kind.

 

I'll come back to this as getting angry looks from the missus that i'm on the computer still, i'll tidy up my thoughts!

 

 

Gus, you seem like a nice guy.  I'm interested in what you might have to say, but it's very unlikely that I haven't heard it before.  If you are just going to "research" and come back with some cut & paste apologetics, then don't be surprised if members here become frustrated.  

 

We already have a christian here that dumps and runs.

 

Usually I don't post cut & paste or links to other sites. I figure if anyone wants to research topics such as 'is there a hell' etc, they will do it. There is plenty of interesting reading out there.

 

My honest answer at this point, is that I could not say 100% what is true on this, but I am hopefully working towards it.

I could argue that the Bible does not necessarily say hell is forever or even a place of torture, but I don't want to get into a sricpture battle, it's not something I even do on a Christian forum.

 

If I look at the Bible as a whole, I have to ask, what is it saying? The Bible is Gods plan to bring mankind back to him.

Jesus would have died for just one. So would God swipe the other however many billion into hell? I don't hink so. There is a bigger plan that has been missed by the Church I feel.

 

I would tend to agree with Doubting Nate that religion and mythology is what made some of the writers describe hell as it is. As he says, it is not a new or exclusive concept, with imagery based on pagan and greek traditions prior to the Bible being written.

Im not going to get into Catholic bashing, but i feel that that Church used it as a way of controlling the masses with fear.

 

Part of me even thinks that, whatever happens after death, Gods ultimate plan is the restoration of everyone, which is what verses such as 1 Tim 4:10 could imply, but thats another thought path altogether that I am not on yet.

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Does God burn people then? Only today I burnt myself on the bbq. In a split second, it hurt like crazy. Does God the, the God of love throw people into an unbearable hot fire?

!

 

 

Having read a burnt woman's account of her ordeal, I can certify that one minutes' worth of being on fire feels like an eternity.  I have read the bible at face value.  It is clearly, plain as day describing a place of agony and a place of burning.  That cannot be argued away.  You can argue that it will go on for X amount of time rather than eternity.  But IMO it is preferable never to be born than to be on fire for 10 minutes.  The bible describes physical and psychological torture, no matter how you slice it.  Does the "God of love" throw people into unbearable hot fire?  Remember 9/11?

 

I was thinking about the story of Lazurs and this again is a parable, it is not a literal version of hell.

The story was presumably told to the religious Jews and Pharisees who where rich and  shackling people with religious rule rather than helping those in need and thinking their wealth and false piety gave them favour with God.

The rich man in the fire was talking, and the drop of water on his tongue would not solve his problem, why not ask for an ice bath!

If i was on fire I would not being having a conversation im sure.

The poor mans qualification for not going to hell was simply that he was poor, It doesn't say anything bout him being a believer.

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 If I look at the Bible as a whole, I have to ask, what is it saying? The Bible is Gods plan to bring mankind back to him.

Jeues would have died for just one. So would God swipe the other however many billion into hell? I don't hink so. There is a bigger plan that has been missed by the Church I feel. 

 god would not have needed to bring humanity back to him had he not set humanity up to fail in the garden of eden.  This is one of the main reasons why jesus/yahweh is not a loving god.  Better planning with forethought before creation would have spared us all the trouble of god's piss-poor Plan B.

 

With that said, I don't want to derail this thread with a discussion of god's utter failure in the garden.  We can start another thread if anybody wants to discuss it.

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 If I look at the Bible as a whole, I have to ask, what is it saying? The Bible is Gods plan to bring mankind back to him.

Jeues would have died for just one. So would God swipe the other however many billion into hell? I don't hink so. There is a bigger plan that has been missed by the Church I feel. 

 god would not have needed to bring humanity back to him had he not set humanity up to fail in the garden of eden.  This is one of the main reasons why jesus/yahweh is not a loving god.  Better planning with forethought before creation would have spared us all the trouble of god's piss-poor Plan B.

 

With that said, I don't want to derail this thread with a discussion of god's utter failure in the garden.  We can start another thread if anybody wants to discuss it.

 

Go for it, sounds like a good topic :)

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 If I look at the Bible as a whole, I have to ask, what is it saying? The Bible is Gods plan to bring mankind back to him.

Jeues would have died for just one. So would God swipe the other however many billion into hell? I don't hink so. There is a bigger plan that has been missed by the Church I feel. 

 god would not have needed to bring humanity back to him had he not set humanity up to fail in the garden of eden.  This is one of the main reasons why jesus/yahweh is not a loving god.  Better planning with forethought before creation would have spared us all the trouble of god's piss-poor Plan B.

 

With that said, I don't want to derail this thread with a discussion of god's utter failure in the garden.  We can start another thread if anybody wants to discuss it.

 

Go for it, sounds like a good topic smile.png

 

See you in The Den. 

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The biggest lie of all is that God loves us. He clearly does not, because:

 

The default position for all humans (including children) is eternal damnation

 

God sends people a strong delusion so they will believe a lie

 

Jesus speaks in parables so He doesn’t have to save us

 

People are born in times and places where they have no chance of hearing the “Good News”

 

Will send us to eternal torture after we die for inheriting a crime committed by some one else

 

God "laughs" at the vain and futile efforts of man to escape from the control of his laws and throw off his dominion 

 

God is described in the Bible as:

 

A man of war

 

A being that allows and promotes slavery

 

Asks for and receives animal sacrifices

 

A jealous deity who will devour the world

 

Owns and will use a sword

 

Owns Arrows which he will make red with human blood

 

 

Thoughts........?

To be, possibly the biggest lie of all has been through the Church over history teaching on the concept of hell.

 

There is a possible reason for this, as the Church grew in power, it was taught too keep its congregation in line.

 

I don't see how a Christian can say God is love and then sit at ease with the idea of eternal hell. In fact many don't but still say 'well Gods ways are not our ways', which is a cop out.

 

Does the bible say there is a hell? If you want it too, you could select verses to argue that.

 

But does it really say that? The way I read it, there is either eternal life for the believer, or eternal death (nothing) for the unbeliever. I guess for those who don't believe in God or the afterlife that makes no real difference to them?

I do believe that there will be some kind of justice met out though. After all, if a criminal  got away scot free in this life, would it not be unjust of God not deal with them after?

 

 

 

But if the Zodiac Killer came to faith in Jesus Christ as his Saviour, then he is in heaven according to Christian theology and he was not brought to justice. I wanted to say Jeffery Dahmer who did come to faith but he went to prison so his doesn't work quite as well.

 

I wonder what the punishment for priests (or any Christian really) who cost someone their faith. The actions of the Christian were so vile that this person would never believe and thus are doomed to hell. The Christian would never be brought to justice even though they caused someone eternal torment.

 

Priests and anyone in a position of authority within the Christan body have greater responsibility and greater accountability should they mis-lead or corrupt people and their position. Luke 12:48. This is why it also says not to take on such a position lightly.

The gift of salvation and forgiveness of sins cannot be abused to do what you like. We will still be accountable for what we have done.

I would say though that if a 'Christians' actions where so vile etc, then they probably never actually knew God.

Just because someone wears a hat and robe does not make them believers or have any relationship with Jesus.

 

 

Just because someone talks about jesus doesn't make him real...

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The biggest lie of all is that God loves us. He clearly does not, because:

 

The default position for all humans (including children) is eternal damnation

 

God sends people a strong delusion so they will believe a lie

 

Jesus speaks in parables so He doesn’t have to save us

 

People are born in times and places where they have no chance of hearing the “Good News”

 

Will send us to eternal torture after we die for inheriting a crime committed by some one else

 

God "laughs" at the vain and futile efforts of man to escape from the control of his laws and throw off his dominion 

 

God is described in the Bible as:

 

A man of war

 

A being that allows and promotes slavery

 

Asks for and receives animal sacrifices

 

A jealous deity who will devour the world

 

Owns and will use a sword

 

Owns Arrows which he will make red with human blood

 

 

Thoughts........?

To be, possibly the biggest lie of all has been through the Church over history teaching on the concept of hell.

 

There is a possible reason for this, as the Church grew in power, it was taught too keep its congregation in line.

 

I don't see how a Christian can say God is love and then sit at ease with the idea of eternal hell. In fact many don't but still say 'well Gods ways are not our ways', which is a cop out.

 

Does the bible say there is a hell? If you want it too, you could select verses to argue that.

 

But does it really say that? The way I read it, there is either eternal life for the believer, or eternal death (nothing) for the unbeliever. I guess for those who don't believe in God or the afterlife that makes no real difference to them?

I do believe that there will be some kind of justice met out though. After all, if a criminal  got away scot free in this life, would it not be unjust of God not deal with them after?

 

 

 

But if the Zodiac Killer came to faith in Jesus Christ as his Saviour, then he is in heaven according to Christian theology and he was not brought to justice. I wanted to say Jeffery Dahmer who did come to faith but he went to prison so his doesn't work quite as well.

 

I wonder what the punishment for priests (or any Christian really) who cost someone their faith. The actions of the Christian were so vile that this person would never believe and thus are doomed to hell. The Christian would never be brought to justice even though they caused someone eternal torment.

 

Priests and anyone in a position of authority within the Christan body have greater responsibility and greater accountability should they mis-lead or corrupt people and their position. Luke 12:48. This is why it also says not to take on such a position lightly.

The gift of salvation and forgiveness of sins cannot be abused to do what you like. We will still be accountable for what we have done.

I would say though that if a 'Christians' actions where so vile etc, then they probably never actually knew God.

Just because someone wears a hat and robe does not make them believers or have any relationship with Jesus.

 

 

Just because someone talks about jesus doesn't make him real...

 

The truth is we don’t know if He is real or not.

 

The Bible contains some amazing stuff, such as Daniel 9, which are very hard to explain away, equally it contains stuff we should know are not true, such as believers being able lift up mountains, etc.

 

Christians have faith, yet go to the doctors when ill, how do they explain that, don’t they want to be with Christ as soon as possible.

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This is how Christians inb America, against better military judgment, supported torture during the Bush administration.

Their god administrates torture.

If you do as I did, and present the logical military arguments against use of torture, they will see you as a worldly person. I may have called myself a Christian at that point in my life, and I even got defensive against their claims of doublemindedness and not knowing the mind of god.

In fact, now that I'm out, I agree with them wholeheartedly.

Of course, I'm talking the "true Christians," the evangelicals, in the main, the most fundamentalist. For fellow humanists, my only reason for not drawing up humanitarian arguments against torture is I know far better than to use humanitarian arguments with evangelicals. Any American raised in a Christian home around or after the Fallwellian Explosion of the late 70s through the 80s, knows better. As a child you might be more likely to be scolded or spanked for humanism for making such an argument.

As an adult, try-to-be-reasonable, Christian, I only thought the argument against the use of torture could be logcially explained to them, without triggering the frantic and shrill responses humanitarian arguments produce.

For Christian kiddos on here: Secular humanism is *NOT* communism, certainly not in the gulag or Red Scare sense of the word. You cannot even thank Grandfather Fallwell for that belief. That comes from your great grandfather sir Joseph McCarthy of the Isle of Paranoia.

How does this relate? if your great leader, your god tortures people for eternity, then why not torture enemies for a few months yourself?

You could be said to have the mind of christ by doing so;.

Slightly off topic here, been to the USA a few times, yet never found it to be this huge right wing theocracy some claim it to be, I found it all rather lovely, mind, I’ve only been to New York, Boston and San Fran, I guess I might have a different view if I went to Texas. 

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Gus i think ur wrong if someone in this world is tortured then the torturer dies how is justice dealt.  relying on god is biased in that any christian gets a free pass.  either justice for all or for none. But not just pickand choose

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This is how Christians inb America, against better military judgment, supported torture during the Bush administration.

Their god administrates torture.

If you do as I did, and present the logical military arguments against use of torture, they will see you as a worldly person. I may have called myself a Christian at that point in my life, and I even got defensive against their claims of doublemindedness and not knowing the mind of god.

In fact, now that I'm out, I agree with them wholeheartedly.

Of course, I'm talking the "true Christians," the evangelicals, in the main, the most fundamentalist. For fellow humanists, my only reason for not drawing up humanitarian arguments against torture is I know far better than to use humanitarian arguments with evangelicals. Any American raised in a Christian home around or after the Fallwellian Explosion of the late 70s through the 80s, knows better. As a child you might be more likely to be scolded or spanked for humanism for making such an argument.

As an adult, try-to-be-reasonable, Christian, I only thought the argument against the use of torture could be logcially explained to them, without triggering the frantic and shrill responses humanitarian arguments produce.

For Christian kiddos on here: Secular humanism is *NOT* communism, certainly not in the gulag or Red Scare sense of the word. You cannot even thank Grandfather Fallwell for that belief. That comes from your great grandfather sir Joseph McCarthy of the Isle of Paranoia.

How does this relate? if your great leader, your god tortures people for eternity, then why not torture enemies for a few months yourself?

You could be said to have the mind of christ by doing so;.

Slightly off topic here, been to the USA a few times, yet never found it to be this huge right wing theocracy some claim it to be, I found it all rather lovely, mind, I’ve only been to New York, Boston and San Fran, I guess I might have a different view if I went to Texas. 

 

The USA is a large country composed of a large variety of culture.  I've lived here all my life, lived in five different states, visited about 40 other states and I still have not directly experienced much of what is here.

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