gall Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 The biggest lie of all is that God loves us. He clearly does not, because: The default position for all humans (including children) is eternal damnation God sends people a strong delusion so they will believe a lie Jesus speaks in parables so He doesn’t have to save us People are born in times and places where they have no chance of hearing the “Good News” Will send us to eternal torture after we die for inheriting a crime committed by some one else God "laughs" at the vain and futile efforts of man to escape from the control of his laws and throw off his dominion God is described in the Bible as: A man of war A being that allows and promotes slavery Asks for and receives animal sacrifices A jealous deity who will devour the world Owns and will use a sword Owns Arrows which he will make red with human blood Thoughts........? To be, possibly the biggest lie of all has been through the Church over history teaching on the concept of hell. There is a possible reason for this, as the Church grew in power, it was taught too keep its congregation in line. I don't see how a Christian can say God is love and then sit at ease with the idea of eternal hell. In fact many don't but still say 'well Gods ways are not our ways', which is a cop out. Does the bible say there is a hell? If you want it too, you could select verses to argue that. But does it really say that? The way I read it, there is either eternal life for the believer, or eternal death (nothing) for the unbeliever. I guess for those who don't believe in God or the afterlife that makes no real difference to them? I do believe that there will be some kind of justice met out though. After all, if a criminal got away scot free in this life, would it not be unjust of God not deal with them after? But if the Zodiac Killer came to faith in Jesus Christ as his Saviour, then he is in heaven according to Christian theology and he was not brought to justice. I wanted to say Jeffery Dahmer who did come to faith but he went to prison so his doesn't work quite as well. I wonder what the punishment for priests (or any Christian really) who cost someone their faith. The actions of the Christian were so vile that this person would never believe and thus are doomed to hell. The Christian would never be brought to justice even though they caused someone eternal torment. Priests and anyone in a position of authority within the Christan body have greater responsibility and greater accountability should they mis-lead or corrupt people and their position. Luke 12:48. This is why it also says not to take on such a position lightly. The gift of salvation and forgiveness of sins cannot be abused to do what you like. We will still be accountable for what we have done. I would say though that if a 'Christians' actions where so vile etc, then they probably never actually knew God. Just because someone wears a hat and robe does not make them believers or have any relationship with Jesus. Just because someone talks about jesus doesn't make him real... The truth is we don’t know if He is real or not. The Bible contains some amazing stuff, such as Daniel 9, which are very hard to explain away, equally it contains stuff we should know are not true, such as believers being able lift up mountains, etc. Christians have faith, yet go to the doctors when ill, how do they explain that, don’t they want to be with Christ as soon as possible. I didn't make any claims. Christians did. They can provide proof... or not I really could care less. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gall Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 This is how Christians inb America, against better military judgment, supported torture during the Bush administration. Their god administrates torture. If you do as I did, and present the logical military arguments against use of torture, they will see you as a worldly person. I may have called myself a Christian at that point in my life, and I even got defensive against their claims of doublemindedness and not knowing the mind of god. In fact, now that I'm out, I agree with them wholeheartedly. Of course, I'm talking the "true Christians," the evangelicals, in the main, the most fundamentalist. For fellow humanists, my only reason for not drawing up humanitarian arguments against torture is I know far better than to use humanitarian arguments with evangelicals. Any American raised in a Christian home around or after the Fallwellian Explosion of the late 70s through the 80s, knows better. As a child you might be more likely to be scolded or spanked for humanism for making such an argument. As an adult, try-to-be-reasonable, Christian, I only thought the argument against the use of torture could be logcially explained to them, without triggering the frantic and shrill responses humanitarian arguments produce. For Christian kiddos on here: Secular humanism is *NOT* communism, certainly not in the gulag or Red Scare sense of the word. You cannot even thank Grandfather Fallwell for that belief. That comes from your great grandfather sir Joseph McCarthy of the Isle of Paranoia. How does this relate? if your great leader, your god tortures people for eternity, then why not torture enemies for a few months yourself? You could be said to have the mind of christ by doing so;. Slightly off topic here, been to the USA a few times, yet never found it to be this huge right wing theocracy some claim it to be, I found it all rather lovely, mind, I’ve only been to New York, Boston and San Fran, I guess I might have a different view if I went to Texas. You surround yourself with what you like. Would you really take a vacation then go to Topeca kansas or to Salt lake city? Most of America is not full of extremist, although the media and those same extremist that cry so damn loud would love for you to believe that. America would not be here if not for forward thinks both during our inception and now to try and keep the extremists and religious crazy groups from dominating our right to choose our own way. ...yes it very lovely and very diverse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leo Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 True, America is a nation of small countries, almost. even in Texas, you might visit Austin and find forward-thinking people. Even in Oregon, where there is forward-thinking people, you will find some fire-breathers. The trouble in America is, for the fundamentalists, it is all tied up in politics, religion, culture, every aspect of life. That by no means diminishes the beauty of this nation, though it is a great blight. Boston, New York, San Francisco, Key West, Minneapolis / St. Paul, Seattle, Portland, and so on, don't have the high demographic ratios of places like Jacksonville, San Antonio, Lynchburg, and so on. Also, next American election, just watch the primaries and notice the Jesus Camp scenarios on the Right. By that I mean next Presidential eledtion. It's there. Americans have to navigate around it. It doesn't always affect all of us, depending on where we're at and local policies, but nonetheless it is very prevalent in our culture. Check out Jeff Charlet's books, in particular, "The Family: The Secret Fundamentalism At the Heart Of American Power." Note to recent deconverts in the U.S. I suggest you maybe wait awhile before reading that. I read it just a bit too soon for my own good, perhaps. If you grew up through the Fallwellian Explosion, it is very instructive, but might bring back some memories. But, the book is extremely instructive. It's journalistic in nature, more along the lines and style of "The World Is Flat," or "Hot, Flat and Crowded," albeit a bit less preachy than the latter. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Castiel233 Posted June 25, 2014 Author Share Posted June 25, 2014 I am not, the first I am sure to be struck the difference religion plays in the USA compared to the UK. USA has the Jefferson wall of separation, etc; Children are not allowed to be lead in prayer at school, well the state ones at least. USA is considered the most religious western country in the world UK, has Christianity infused into the state, Clergy sit as of a right in the upper chamber (House of Lords). Faith based state schools everywhere, Children forced to take part in collective worship. State funded broadcaster (BBC) shows Christian themed shows. Radio has Thought For the Day…..always religious, secular voices are not allowed………UK considered virtually heathen by comparison. Personally I would have The Bible taught in all schools in the US, have collective worship, have state sponsored Christian TV shows…..see how long it all stands up then…….. On a side note, I loved my visits to America….the people were lovely, the culture vibrant. New York is my favourite place in the world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Castiel233 Posted June 28, 2014 Author Share Posted June 28, 2014 I have mentioned this before, but given that perhaps the bare minimum requirement to avoid going to Hell is: Baptism Accepting Jesus is the Son of God Why doesn't the church simply ask for this and leave the rest alone. Why all the complicated add ons. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest afireinside Posted June 28, 2014 Share Posted June 28, 2014 ^Because religious men's delusions are complicated things to get a line on and adhere to. Peter don't agree with Paul, James don't agree with John, Jesus don't agree with Moses, it's all fucked up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Castiel233 Posted June 28, 2014 Author Share Posted June 28, 2014 The Peter versus Paul thing I have commented on before. Peter knew Jesus personally, travelled with Him, watched His miracles and had first hand experience of hearing His preachments. Paul never met an Earthly Jesus. The pair of them meet and have a doctrinal dispute, and Paul wins. How dodgy is that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xtify Posted June 28, 2014 Share Posted June 28, 2014 The rich man in the fire was talking, and the drop of water on his tongue would not solve his problem, why not ask for an ice bath! If i was on fire I would not being having a conversation im sure. Yes, this doesn't make sense. Probably because it wasn't written from the perspective of the tortured person. It was just a typical example of Yeshua, lashing out at people in his cult ramblings. It was a just a vengeful rant about how the rich guys gonna pay, showing little knowledge of actual justice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Castiel233 Posted June 29, 2014 Author Share Posted June 29, 2014 Excellent point: God loves us, but sends someone to Hell, not for the content of his life, but (presumably) the contents of his wallet. Come to think of it, it is a strange parable, not only the ability to talk in Hell, but to be heard from Heaven. The whole Heaven and Hell thing itself is hard to define, are we given new bodies, in which case are we still "us" or copies of us. The Bible makes a claim of a single prophet never dying, but going straight to Heaven, so I guess he is still alive now. Paul says (if memory serves) that the flesh cannot inherit the Kingdom of God, but clearly that prophet did. The whole resurrection thing sounds incredible:What about those vapourized by the dropping of atomic bombs during WW2, Is God really going to recreate children with the single purpose of torturing them in Hell. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Castiel233 Posted June 29, 2014 Author Share Posted June 29, 2014 "Yet, he thinks he's the best thing since sliced bread. So he's delusional as well!" Great Quote, Love it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xtify Posted June 29, 2014 Share Posted June 29, 2014 Yes, lol... he even thinks he IS bread! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leo Posted June 30, 2014 Share Posted June 30, 2014 I have mentioned this before, but given that perhaps the bare minimum requirement to avoid going to Hell is: Baptism Accepting Jesus is the Son of God Why doesn't the church simply ask for this and leave the rest alone. Why all the complicated add ons. Very simple. Having accepted Christ as Savior (that is not found in the Bible directly), cannot be proven. There is no such thing as universalism. All religions and other aspects to humanity are tribal in nature. It's not like a Christian can walk into a room and see who is a Christian and who isn't. It's not like a sporting arena where everyone has their team shirt on. In recent decades, at least in the U.S., the focus has shifted from behavior to doctrinal accuracy. This is true even for the most experiential dancing bear pentecostals with all their glossolalia and floppoflailia. It all comes down to what you believe. You'll frequently see discussions had RE: The true Christian who has REALLY accepted Jesus will believe like x, or understand y. So how do they know? They check, they cross-check, they verify each other all the time. Most instructive read on thoughtcrime analysis is George Orwell's 1984. Fundamentalist Christianity is full of this. And I know you've been to New York. But Arkansas ain't New York. Kansas ain't New York. Oklahoma ain't New York. Some of the moderate Christians, or even backsliders, will say Christians aren't supposed to judge. Except, the New Testaament is full of what the Christians are supposed to do with believers as opposed to nonbelievers, and even ex-believers. And, in a few instances, believers who want to stay believers but are committing some kinds of wrongdoing. How are they supposed to know? Anyone can get dipped and certified. Anyone can say they accepted Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. Many of us apostates have done just that. Jesus himself said in the gospels that many would say 'Lord Lord' (whatever that means), in that day, and would profess their deeds, religious deeds, and he would still reject them. That would give the fundies the credence to their claim that it's not deeds and actions, but belief. Many of these who have done acts in the name of the Lord will be thrown out just like us apostates. So, they have to do this checking, because they are instructed to act one way to a believer and one way to a nonbeliever. It's very elaborate mythology, I'll grant you that, but there is the reasoning. There are no t-shirts or other physical markings or characteristics that guarantee someone is a Christian. It is just that, Christians are no better and no worse than anybody else, that causes them to have to engage in this doctrinal thoughtcrime analysis. I wish I had understood then what I understand now. Then I would not have wasted years trying to bee the defensive 'reasonable' Christian. Or, maybe I would have, on account of cultural constraints and duty to family. No point in looking back, I guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Castiel233 Posted July 1, 2014 Author Share Posted July 1, 2014 Leo, Brilliant analysis and very thought provoking. The very idea that God cares more what we think, rather than what we do has often seemed very suspect to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Castiel233 Posted July 4, 2014 Author Share Posted July 4, 2014 The other thing that gets me about Hell, is how easy it is to get there according to Christian theology. Basically just being born in the first place gets you a front row seat to the pit, while getting into Heaven appears very hard indeed. Ones does wonder then , about God wanting all to be saved Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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