Guest end3 Posted June 24, 2014 Share Posted June 24, 2014 The question of free will, imo should be asked from the POV of Adam and Eve....hence the question was God warning A&E of death a violation of free will. Try to step up your thinking Roz so I don't have to explain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roz Posted June 24, 2014 Share Posted June 24, 2014 The question of free will, imo should be asked from the POV of Adam and Eve....hence the question was God warning A&E of death a violation of free will. Try to step up your thinking Roz so I don't have to explain. You still can't think outside your christian box, I know this, and the rest of Ex-C knows this as well. I don't know if you're even capable of thinking without your god glasses on, it may be a mental deficiency in your part. So here's a C+ for the effort. You cannot explain why RNP's, X's, and every other Ex-C's point away without twisting the question around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted June 24, 2014 Super Moderator Share Posted June 24, 2014 This is NOT free will. Free will would be allowing him to choose anything, literally anything, he wants without any strings attached or punishments threatened. Narrowing his choices down to "do as I want or suffer" is not free will, even if the boy appears free to make either choice. So you consider warning of death threat of punishment? No. I consider eternal conscious torment to be a punishment which far exceeds the choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roz Posted June 24, 2014 Share Posted June 24, 2014 The question of free will, imo should be asked from the POV of Adam and Eve....hence the question was God warning A&E of death a violation of free will. Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, did god have the power to kill Adam and Eve? He was the very person holding the gun on their heads. He said "don't eat or else you shall surely die." How is this any fucking different than the robber analogy? DM2525 illustrated it perfectly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted June 24, 2014 Share Posted June 24, 2014 The question of free will, imo should be asked from the POV of Adam and Eve....hence the question was God warning A&E of death a violation of free will. Try to step up your thinking Roz so I don't have to explain. Adam and Eve are fictional characters. They exist only in a fictional story. Thinking from their point of view would be like trying to think about it from Harry Potter's point of view or from Luke Skywalker's point of view. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted June 24, 2014 Share Posted June 24, 2014 The question of free will, imo should be asked from the POV of Adam and Eve....hence the question was God warning A&E of death a violation of free will. Try to step up your thinking Roz so I don't have to explain. You still can't think outside your christian box, I know this, and the rest of Ex-C knows this as well. I don't know if you're even capable of thinking without your god glasses on, it may be a mental deficiency in your part. So here's a C+ for the effort. You cannot explain why RNP's, X's, and every other Ex-C's point away without twisting the question around. Certainly I can see outside the box R. It's called discussion or debate. I argue for MY side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted June 24, 2014 Share Posted June 24, 2014 This is NOT free will. Free will would be allowing him to choose anything, literally anything, he wants without any strings attached or punishments threatened. Narrowing his choices down to "do as I want or suffer" is not free will, even if the boy appears free to make either choice. So you consider warning of death threat of punishment? No. I consider eternal conscious torment to be a punishment which far exceeds the choice. Thank you, then the rest of humanity (per the story Roz), is subject to that free will, and unless we can define that it wasn't "perfect", then I rest my case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roz Posted June 24, 2014 Share Posted June 24, 2014 This is NOT free will. Free will would be allowing him to choose anything, literally anything, he wants without any strings attached or punishments threatened. Narrowing his choices down to "do as I want or suffer" is not free will, even if the boy appears free to make either choice. So you consider warning of death threat of punishment? No. I consider eternal conscious torment to be a punishment which far exceeds the choice. Thank you, then the rest of humanity (per the story Roz), is subject to that free will, and unless we can define that it wasn't "perfect", then I rest my case. Thank you for outlining your position: The robber in the story is not guilty of committing murder then, when he shot his victim. The victim made the choice to die, thus committing suicide. ... Thank you for declaring to all the world that you're one immoral bastard. But then again you're a christian, and judging from your previous declarations of "yes I will murder and rape" I can see why you would make this choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted June 24, 2014 Super Moderator Share Posted June 24, 2014 This is NOT free will. Free will would be allowing him to choose anything, literally anything, he wants without any strings attached or punishments threatened. Narrowing his choices down to "do as I want or suffer" is not free will, even if the boy appears free to make either choice. So you consider warning of death threat of punishment? No. I consider eternal conscious torment to be a punishment which far exceeds the choice. Thank you, then the rest of humanity (per the story Roz), is subject to that free will, and unless we can define that it wasn't "perfect", then I rest my case. You still have yet to address the fact that the boy in my analogy does not have free will. As I said, compelling him to choose what I want or face disproportionate punishment is not free will. You can disagree, but it doesn't alter the fact that my son would not be choosing of his own volition. However, since you have rested your case, we will let the jury decide. All who agree with End3 say "aye"; all opposed say "nay". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted June 24, 2014 Super Moderator Share Posted June 24, 2014 For the record: "Nay". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roz Posted June 24, 2014 Share Posted June 24, 2014 "Nay" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagainathiest Posted June 24, 2014 Share Posted June 24, 2014 The question of free will, imo should be asked from the POV of Adam and Eve....hence the question was God warning A&E of death a violation of free will. Try to step up your thinking Roz so I don't have to explain. So where and when did God warn Eve, End? Seeing as the future fate of the entire human race was resting on Adam and Eve's innocent shoulders, why didn't God warn BOTH of them? Try to step up your understanding of scripture, otherwise we'll just have to correct your mistakes. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagainathiest Posted June 24, 2014 Share Posted June 24, 2014 The question of free will, imo should be asked from the POV of Adam and Eve....hence the question was God warning A&E of death a violation of free will. Try to step up your thinking Roz so I don't have to explain. You still can't think outside your christian box, I know this, and the rest of Ex-C knows this as well. I don't know if you're even capable of thinking without your god glasses on, it may be a mental deficiency in your part. So here's a C+ for the effort. You cannot explain why RNP's, X's, and every other Ex-C's point away without twisting the question around. Certainly I can see outside the box R. It's called discussion or debate. I argue for MY side. You cannot seem to see what scripture is saying, End. That doesn't bode well for the strength of your position as a debater. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted June 24, 2014 Share Posted June 24, 2014 This is NOT free will. Free will would be allowing him to choose anything, literally anything, he wants without any strings attached or punishments threatened. Narrowing his choices down to "do as I want or suffer" is not free will, even if the boy appears free to make either choice. So you consider warning of death threat of punishment? No. I consider eternal conscious torment to be a punishment which far exceeds the choice. Thank you, then the rest of humanity (per the story Roz), is subject to that free will, and unless we can define that it wasn't "perfect", then I rest my case. Thank you for outlining your position: The robber in the story is not guilty of committing murder then, when he shot his victim. The victim made the choice to die, thus committing suicide. ... Thank you for declaring to all the world that you're one immoral bastard. But then again you're a christian, and judging from your previous declarations of "yes I will murder and rape" I can see why you would make this choice. Roz, I appreciate your newfound politeness, but you don't know what I would do in any given situation and I'm not even sure what I might do in light of circumstances. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted June 24, 2014 Share Posted June 24, 2014 This is NOT free will. Free will would be allowing him to choose anything, literally anything, he wants without any strings attached or punishments threatened. Narrowing his choices down to "do as I want or suffer" is not free will, even if the boy appears free to make either choice. So you consider warning of death threat of punishment? No. I consider eternal conscious torment to be a punishment which far exceeds the choice. Thank you, then the rest of humanity (per the story Roz), is subject to that free will, and unless we can define that it wasn't "perfect", then I rest my case. You still have yet to address the fact that the boy in my analogy does not have free will. As I said, compelling him to choose what I want or face disproportionate punishment is not free will. You can disagree, but it doesn't alter the fact that my son would not be choosing of his own volition. However, since you have rested your case, we will let the jury decide. All who agree with End3 say "aye"; all opposed say "nay". The only "boy" within the story capable of that free will you describe would be Adam, and you have already said that the warning of death did not impede that will? Anyone post Adam would not share in that same freedom. What am I missing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted June 24, 2014 Share Posted June 24, 2014 The question of free will, imo should be asked from the POV of Adam and Eve....hence the question was God warning A&E of death a violation of free will. Try to step up your thinking Roz so I don't have to explain. So where and when did God warn Eve, End? Seeing as the future fate of the entire human race was resting on Adam and Eve's innocent shoulders, why didn't God warn BOTH of them? Try to step up your understanding of scripture, otherwise we'll just have to correct your mistakes. Did Adam have free will or not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted June 24, 2014 Super Moderator Share Posted June 24, 2014 This is NOT free will. Free will would be allowing him to choose anything, literally anything, he wants without any strings attached or punishments threatened. Narrowing his choices down to "do as I want or suffer" is not free will, even if the boy appears free to make either choice. So you consider warning of death threat of punishment? No. I consider eternal conscious torment to be a punishment which far exceeds the choice. Thank you, then the rest of humanity (per the story Roz), is subject to that free will, and unless we can define that it wasn't "perfect", then I rest my case. You still have yet to address the fact that the boy in my analogy does not have free will. As I said, compelling him to choose what I want or face disproportionate punishment is not free will. You can disagree, but it doesn't alter the fact that my son would not be choosing of his own volition. However, since you have rested your case, we will let the jury decide. All who agree with End3 say "aye"; all opposed say "nay". The only "boy" within the story capable of that free will you describe would be Adam, and you have already said that the warning of death did not impede that will? Anyone post Adam would not share in that same freedom. What am I missing? Point of order. Your case has been rested. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ravenstar Posted June 24, 2014 Share Posted June 24, 2014 The actual points always seem to be sidestepped in these discussions. It's quite annoying and the opposite of DEBATE. In a nutshell: FREE WILL is 'choice without duress or undue influence'. It's plain and simple. There is no getting around it. What many christians fail to see is that there is no FREE WILL in christianity… it's about obedience, not choice. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagainathiest Posted June 24, 2014 Share Posted June 24, 2014 This is NOT free will. Free will would be allowing him to choose anything, literally anything, he wants without any strings attached or punishments threatened. Narrowing his choices down to "do as I want or suffer" is not free will, even if the boy appears free to make either choice. So you consider warning of death threat of punishment? No. I consider eternal conscious torment to be a punishment which far exceeds the choice. Thank you, then the rest of humanity (per the story Roz), is subject to that free will, and unless we can define that it wasn't "perfect", then I rest my case. No End. The rest of the human race may be subject to free will NOW, but neither Adam nor Eve were subject to it, when it mattered most. They couldn't make a free and informed decision about the tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil because they didn't understand what Good and Evil were. And if there had been no physical death up to that time, how could they understand what God meant when he said they'd die if they ate the fruit? A decision made in ignorance is not an informed decision. A decision made without knowing or understanding the terms, benefits and penalties isn't a free choice either. If you don't understand what you're being asked to choose between, that's not a free choice. It's setting a pair of innocents up to fail and then forcing every other human being after them to suffer the consequences of this so-called free choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagainathiest Posted June 24, 2014 Share Posted June 24, 2014 The question of free will, imo should be asked from the POV of Adam and Eve....hence the question was God warning A&E of death a violation of free will. Try to step up your thinking Roz so I don't have to explain. So where and when did God warn Eve, End? Seeing as the future fate of the entire human race was resting on Adam and Eve's innocent shoulders, why didn't God warn BOTH of them? Try to step up your understanding of scripture, otherwise we'll just have to correct your mistakes. Did Adam have free will or not? No. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted June 24, 2014 Share Posted June 24, 2014 This is NOT free will. Free will would be allowing him to choose anything, literally anything, he wants without any strings attached or punishments threatened. Narrowing his choices down to "do as I want or suffer" is not free will, even if the boy appears free to make either choice. So you consider warning of death threat of punishment? No. I consider eternal conscious torment to be a punishment which far exceeds the choice. Thank you, then the rest of humanity (per the story Roz), is subject to that free will, and unless we can define that it wasn't "perfect", then I rest my case. You still have yet to address the fact that the boy in my analogy does not have free will. As I said, compelling him to choose what I want or face disproportionate punishment is not free will. You can disagree, but it doesn't alter the fact that my son would not be choosing of his own volition. However, since you have rested your case, we will let the jury decide. All who agree with End3 say "aye"; all opposed say "nay". The only "boy" within the story capable of that free will you describe would be Adam, and you have already said that the warning of death did not impede that will? Anyone post Adam would not share in that same freedom. What am I missing? Point of order. Your case has been rested. Lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted June 24, 2014 Share Posted June 24, 2014 This is NOT free will. Free will would be allowing him to choose anything, literally anything, he wants without any strings attached or punishments threatened. Narrowing his choices down to "do as I want or suffer" is not free will, even if the boy appears free to make either choice. So you consider warning of death threat of punishment? No. I consider eternal conscious torment to be a punishment which far exceeds the choice. Thank you, then the rest of humanity (per the story Roz), is subject to that free will, and unless we can define that it wasn't "perfect", then I rest my case. No End. The rest of the human race may be subject to free will NOW, but neither Adam nor Eve were subject to it, when it mattered most. They couldn't make a free and informed decision about the tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil because they didn't understand what Good and Evil were. And if there had been no physical death up to that time, how could they understand what God meant when he said they'd die if they ate the fruit? A decision made in ignorance is not an informed decision. A decision made without knowing or understanding the terms, benefits and penalties isn't a free choice either. If you don't understand what you're being asked to choose between, that's not a free choice. It's setting a pair of innocents up to fail and then forcing every other human being after them to suffer the consequences of this so-called free choice. No, no, no, you can't have it both ways.....free means free according to Prof. Any "informed" would bias the freedom. OBJECTION!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted June 24, 2014 Share Posted June 24, 2014 The actual points always seem to be sidestepped in these discussions. It's quite annoying and the opposite of DEBATE. In a nutshell: FREE WILL is 'choice without duress or undue influence'. It's plain and simple. There is no getting around it. What many christians fail to see is that there is no FREE WILL in christianity… it's about obedience, not choice. Then by the story, here's your provisions A&E and here's what will kill you. Where did God violate said freedom? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roz Posted June 24, 2014 Share Posted June 24, 2014 What we have here is one man claiming that the murderer did not in fact murder anyone. The dead victim committed suicide. It's so sad and so hilarious at the same time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted June 24, 2014 Share Posted June 24, 2014 Maybe y'all should recess in order to make a plan....all of your witnesses Prof are losing your case for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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