Cianna200 Posted June 23, 2014 Share Posted June 23, 2014 One person once said Christianity is not immoral it is amoral, as far as I'm concerned Christians seem to be confused about what is good and what is evil. Do you think Christians lack the common sense to know what is really moral and what is really immoral? My example of Christian amorality is the take on witchcraft. Christians believe that dark magic which is used to hurt or control people is evil which is of course true, but Christians also believe magic used for good and blessings is evil and Satan is behind it (I doubt an evil being would ever want to help people, especially not without it putting a dangerous price tag on our heads, they are treacherous ). Regardless of whether or not you believe in magic, you would agree that dark magic used for hexes and manipulation is wrong and light magic used for helping others without any type of harm being involved is good. What is your example of Christian amorality? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leo Posted June 23, 2014 Share Posted June 23, 2014 Probably one of the worst is that we are to celebrate being used and broken. I am beside myself with incredulity that I went along, even if halfhearted many times, with this absurd idea! I personally know what it is like to be both used and broken. To the abuse survivor, the Christian apologetic states, "But God isn't like that one who abused you. His breaking is good for you." ... and so on. I should perhaps have put this in two posts, two replies, but, second to abused and broken? This idea that thought and action are equally evil. So if I consider a woman attractive, or am even curious about something of a sexual nature, I am as guilty as though I had committed the domestic treachery act we call adultery or having an affair. Except, of course, if I did commit such betrayal, the woman who was betrayed might at times wish she were dead instead of betrayed. Betrayal and trust run so deep in homo sapiens and other primates, it's shockingly amoral to contrive that someone who looked at a Sports Illustrated photo, or heard a voice they found sexually attractive, and considered the matter, is as guilty as someone who would decimate an intimate relationship! The New Testament is full of such foolery. Even your most soft-footed doves who talk about some of the more sublime veneer, often overlook some of these damnable passages. Which is that whole "all sin is sin" issue. So, their god is not capable of simple differentiation? We imprison for life he who stole a stick of gum, as we might she who committed murder? And if he asks for pardon in a particular way, agreeing with certain dogmas, then we give him a pass for his rape? But she who was broken by the rape, and could not for any number of reasons, stop hating the rapist and put it behidn her, she is locked away? ... I'll stop now, Leo 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flutters Posted June 23, 2014 Share Posted June 23, 2014 While I mean no offense, I want to say first, that I believe in no type of magic. That said, I can say that there really is no difference between the xtian god performing miracles and others performing magic, with one caveat - god gets to decide, god gets all the credit because you're so unworthy from sin as to be unable to even affect him. He gets the credit for every minute and grand good that happens, but never the blame for the bad - the blame is always on we inferior beings who have no control over the universe. So for good or bad, it's funny that we have no influence on the control of the good in ourselves even, but always the blame for the bad, which is still a kind of influence on the universe by xtian standards of reason. Seems we were only enabled to not do good so that he could get all the glory. In this sense, it seems that other types of "good magic" are less egocentric and self serving. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellinas Posted June 23, 2014 Share Posted June 23, 2014 One person once said Christianity is not immoral it is amoral, as far as I'm concerned Christians seem to be confused about what is good and what is evil. Do you think Christians lack the common sense to know what is really moral and what is really immoral? My example of Christian amorality is the take on witchcraft. Christians believe that dark magic which is used to hurt or control people is evil which is of course true, but Christians also believe magic used for good and blessings is evil and Satan is behind it (I doubt an evil being would ever want to help people, especially not without it putting a dangerous price tag on our heads, they are treacherous ). Regardless of whether or not you believe in magic, you would agree that dark magic used for hexes and manipulation is wrong and light magic used for helping others without any type of harm being involved is good. What is your example of Christian amorality? "Amorality"? Good question. I'm not sure I agree with the quote. To cast your moral compass onto the presumed foibles of a deity as interpreted via centuries old scripts with all their cultural vagiaries, and to deny all other moral rationale, is not, in my view, "amoral". It is squarely "immoral". Any given example of christian morality may be perfectly acceptable of itself ("thou shalt not kill..."), but the whole process for establishing the moral framework is itself wrong. The system cannot survive that as an acceptable moral structure, but can only be condemned. Therefore, I see it as "immoral" from start to finish. As to your example, it's worth you being aware that what appears to be your view of the nature of "magic" and apparent concept of "light" and "dark" is not the only outlook within the pagan camp. However, I don't intend pursuing such issues here as I do not think it will be helpful for the majority of people, may be downright harmful to some and will offend the worldview of many. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gall Posted June 23, 2014 Share Posted June 23, 2014 One person once said Christianity is not immoral it is amoral, as far as I'm concerned Christians seem to be confused about what is good and what is evil. Do you think Christians lack the common sense to know what is really moral and what is really immoral? My example of Christian amorality is the take on witchcraft. Christians believe that dark magic which is used to hurt or control people is evil which is of course true, but Christians also believe magic used for good and blessings is evil and Satan is behind it (I doubt an evil being would ever want to help people, especially not without it putting a dangerous price tag on our heads, they are treacherous ). Regardless of whether or not you believe in magic, you would agree that dark magic used for hexes and manipulation is wrong and light magic used for helping others without any type of harm being involved is good. What is your example of Christian amorality? I think one word sums it up nicely in most cases I have seen. Hypocracy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Castiel233 Posted June 23, 2014 Share Posted June 23, 2014 This has always been something that troubles me about Christianity, good is sucking up to God, and bad is thinking for yourself. The idea that we are born sick and commanded to be well (as Hitchens said), is a very, very sick idea indeed. WLC, I believe, teaches, what ever God commands is good, what ever it may be……..a sort of might is right theology. As for right and wrong, The Lord creates everything, including evil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roz Posted June 23, 2014 Share Posted June 23, 2014 This has always been something that troubles me about Christianity, good is sucking up to God, and bad is thinking for yourself. Well think about it though, it's a very useful tool for controlling people. Who talked to god? The patriarchs: Abraham, Moses, Joshua, etc. Then it was the prophets. Then it was Paul. Then yeshitwa/jesus. Then the popes. Then the reformers. Then the current pastors/reverends/clergy. "god said it, i believe it, that settles it." It's drilled into one's head, over and over again. But since the bible god doesn't exist, who conveys his message? His messengers... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExCBooster Posted June 23, 2014 Share Posted June 23, 2014 I think they're so used to not thinking about morality and ethics that they don't actually have any internal morals, themselves. If all you've ever done in terms of defining right and wrong is "because the Bible told me so" then you don't really have a moral compass of your own. That's how they can ask the ludicrous questions like: "if you're atheist, how do you know what's right?" That's why they believe that non-believers can't be moral, and are utterly shocked to find out otherwise. Relying on being spoon-fed your opinions and morals via faith basically stunts the growth of a healthy conscience. If they ever do ask questions, like "how do we know what's in the Bible is right" then they're told to not think about it. So, in a nut-shell, yeah, I don't think Christianity is good for morality, at all. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tollo Posted June 23, 2014 Share Posted June 23, 2014 I think there's a problem where Christians think your morality is like a ~spiritual state. Like sin or righteousness is all about you rather than who you help or harm. I would definitely say it is amoral because a moral code that is 90% focused on the persons own inner self, rather than the consequences of their actions on other people, is pretty irrelevant. ETA: it case it wasn't clear what I meant by internal morals, I mean like what you guys already said about "sinful thoughts," "taking every thought captive," "thou shalt not covet," "remember the sabbath day," "have no other gods," "faith" as a moral virtue, etc. that's not to say that Christianity does not encourage any good actions, but I think it places an unreasonable amount of emphasis on the persons inner thoughts and too little on helping/not harming others. Especially in Calvinist, predestination, grace-alone theologies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
★ Citsonga ★ Posted June 24, 2014 Share Posted June 24, 2014 One person once said Christianity is not immoral it is amoral, as far as I'm concerned Christians seem to be confused about what is good and what is evil. Do you think Christians lack the common sense to know what is really moral and what is really immoral? My example of Christian amorality is the take on witchcraft. Christians believe that dark magic which is used to hurt or control people is evil which is of course true, but Christians also believe magic used for good and blessings is evil and Satan is behind it (I doubt an evil being would ever want to help people, especially not without it putting a dangerous price tag on our heads, they are treacherous ). Regardless of whether or not you believe in magic, you would agree that dark magic used for hexes and manipulation is wrong and light magic used for helping others without any type of harm being involved is good. What is your example of Christian amorality? To the Christian, any supernatural activity that is not from BibleGod is from Satan. White magic used for good? It's just a trick to deceive you into thinking it's good, so you'll be trapped in Satan's snare. Anyway, generally speaking, Christians approach morality more from the angle of what they can justify from their interpretation of a collection of ancient writings (the Bible) than from the angle of what is good or bad for individuals and society as a whole. Christian "morality" isn't as much actual morality as it is submission to an authority figure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miekko Posted June 24, 2014 Share Posted June 24, 2014 This has always been something that troubles me about Christianity, good is sucking up to God, and bad is thinking for yourself. Well think about it though, it's a very useful tool for controlling people. Who talked to god? The patriarchs: Abraham, Moses, Joshua, etc. Then it was the prophets. Then it was Paul. Then yeshitwa/jesus. Then the popes. Then the reformers. Then the current pastors/reverends/clergy. "god said it, i believe it, that settles it." It's drilled into one's head, over and over again. But since the bible god doesn't exist, who conveys his message? His messengers... An interesting thing that Christianity has missed out with regards to Abraham, Moses and a few other Old Testament characters is that they didn't only suck up to god - there's enough instances of prophets pleading with God and disagreeing with him. Abraham pleads for Sodom and Gomorrah, Moses pleads for the Israelites after the golden calf incident (exodus 32), Jonah's unhappy about God forgiving Nineveh, etc. This is a thing Judaism still at least acknowledged, but Christianity seems to ignore it altogether. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
★ Citsonga ★ Posted June 24, 2014 Share Posted June 24, 2014 An interesting thing that Christianity has missed out with regards to Abraham, Moses and a few other Old Testament characters is that they didn't only suck up to god - there's enough instances of prophets pleading with God and disagreeing with him. Abraham pleads for Sodom and Gomorrah, Moses pleads for the Israelites after the golden calf incident (exodus 32), Jonah's unhappy about God forgiving Nineveh, etc. This is a thing Judaism still at least acknowledged, but Christianity seems to ignore it altogether. That depends on what brand of Christianity you're talking about. I definitely remember the church I was raised in talking about that stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xtify Posted June 24, 2014 Share Posted June 24, 2014 Christians claim that they possess true morality, and everyone that doesn't follow their version of it has a seared conscience. But I can't think of a better way to describe what christian teachings do to one's conscience. Searing would leave an open wound. To me, this is how I felt as a christian when I experienced anything I thought was wrong. As an example, yesterday, I said the word 'shit' at work. It was just an off the cuff expression, and I don't usually swear at work at all. My fundie co-worker cringed. It looked like hearing the word actually caused her pain; as if I had tainted her world and she had to shut down and reject me out of loyalty to her savior. By her reaction, you would have thought I just confessed to the most grotesque crime. This was so unnecessary and her overreaction made me feel so judged. The word shit isn't even that bad of a word, but to her, it caused noticeable psychological pain. At the same time, she teaches a bible study and is completely ok with teaching her own children and others about Abraham's great sacrifice and Noah's ark. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aries256 Posted June 24, 2014 Share Posted June 24, 2014 The buybull condones wrongs, give orders of punishments for rights, and things that are neutral. In fact outside the "golden rule" (which xtians tend to recoil from like the snakes they are{no offence to snakes}) xtianity is very much immoral. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
themonkeyman Posted June 24, 2014 Share Posted June 24, 2014 I find it intresting how Christianity holds firm to the view that If Hitler Died believing Jesus he would end up in heaven. But the Jews who died calling out to Yahweh will end up in hell for not believing in Jesus. Way to Go God! To be honest with all the kiddie fiddlers in the Vatican etc do you really want to goto heaven, At least in hell were there for being hard working / honest people. Heaven is for greedy self richeous bastards who dont really deserve it. If Christians were true to their word they would be crying in pain at each person who dies. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted June 24, 2014 Super Moderator Share Posted June 24, 2014 christianity's view is that they're right and everybody else is wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted June 24, 2014 Share Posted June 24, 2014 One person once said Christianity is not immoral it is amoral, as far as I'm concerned Christians seem to be confused about what is good and what is evil. Do you think Christians lack the common sense to know what is really moral and what is really immoral? My example of Christian amorality is the take on witchcraft. Christians believe that dark magic which is used to hurt or control people is evil which is of course true, but Christians also believe magic used for good and blessings is evil and Satan is behind it (I doubt an evil being would ever want to help people, especially not without it putting a dangerous price tag on our heads, they are treacherous ). Regardless of whether or not you believe in magic, you would agree that dark magic used for hexes and manipulation is wrong and light magic used for helping others without any type of harm being involved is good. What is your example of Christian amorality? Christian morality is just a concept. People's behavior is due to how they have been raised. People behave the way their parents behave. If a Christian lacks common sense about morality it probably is because they havent been raised well. I dont see mass rioting and killing in the streets, and it isnt because someone is or is not a Christian. A Christian's view on magic is a special brand of thinking. A Christian must never research into magic for if he does he will discover that praying to Jesus is a form of magic. If he found this out he would have to create an exception , the Jesus exception so he could still pray without it being considered magic. A Christian must also never allow himself to consider what bad consequences his 'good' prayer may involve. Achieving the great parking spot thru prayer to Jesus may result in an elderly person needing to hobble further thru the lot to get to Walmart, and on the way passing out or collapsing ... :-) Christian's don't like magic because it doesnt involve the word Jesus. Anything that people become engrossed in that doesnt involve the word Jesus is automatically evil (at least if you're a Pentecostal). If someone played ping pong more than they spoke the word Jesus I am sure some Jesus nut would declare them to be under the evil spirit of ping pong. The way around this problem is to play ping pong FOR Jesus. You would need a shirt "Ping pongers for Jesus" and maybe a website detailing how you were spreading the gospel through table tennis. Include a Paypal link for donations. Regarding dark magic for manipulation: I think everyone does some dark deeds of manipulation whether by magic or mundane means. Or attempts to. In either case I doubt there is some karmic debt or payback. People can discover they are being manipulated and redirect their lives. I think life is naturally balancing. Maybe natural balance is just a way of thinking about one's predicament...I digress. Not sure about Christian amorality, but it seems immoral to nurture the idea that someone is a sinner. But of the course the Christian must first convince a person he has a problem so the Christian can then present the solution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted June 24, 2014 Share Posted June 24, 2014 This idea that thought and action are equally evil. So if I consider a woman attractive, or am even curious about something of a sexual nature, I am as guilty as though I had committed the domestic treachery act we call adultery or having an affair. In order to get to that 'Christian institution' known as marriage you invariably will be attracted to (the sin of lust) your mate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ravenstar Posted June 24, 2014 Share Posted June 24, 2014 Morality is ultimately about choices.. and it's apparent that christians have a very weird concept of what choice actually is. (sorry, but when they say one 'chooses' to go to hell I am convinced they don't really get it) We consider those too immature or otherwise mentally/emotionally incapable incompetent of making conscientious choices and we restrict those freedoms/privileges for the good of society at large (i.e.: voting, etc..) Morality is making the choices that adhere to the social standards of ones society… hopefully because one has a developed conscience… or at the very least because to do otherwise is uncomfortable (social ostracization/prison, etc..). Right and wrong are taught differently in every place… and can change from one neighbourhood or even house to the next. Christians have an unsettled view of right and wrong because they cherry pick their own 'guidebook' to fit, sort of, into what is currently acceptable behaviour socially. They want black and white morals… but they really don't comprehend what makes something moral. So, we find 40,000 denominations all with their own set of 'rules'.. and none actually correspond with the Bible, not much anyway. The 'morality' of the Victorian Age or Elizabethan Age, or the Hellenistic Greeks, for example, are quite different from modern times. To the point where if we were plopped down in the middle of a different age we would probably end up in prison or executed in short order, from ignorance. They also don't seem to comprehend doing things just because they are the right thing to do.. this scares me, frankly. It makes me wonder about the maturity and empathic level of religious people. (obviously this is a sliding scale - but still) I remember hearing a lot about 'eternal' values, but I don't see it. I personally think some things are universally moral though… honesty, for one. Just some thoughts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted June 24, 2014 Share Posted June 24, 2014 Christians claim that they possess true morality, and everyone that doesn't follow their version of it has a seared conscience. But I can't think of a better way to describe what christian teachings do to one's conscience. Searing would leave an open wound. To me, this is how I felt as a christian when I experienced anything I thought was wrong. As an example, yesterday, I said the word 'shit' at work. It was just an off the cuff expression, and I don't usually swear at work at all. My fundie co-worker cringed. It looked like hearing the word actually caused her pain; as if I had tainted her world and she had to shut down and reject me out of loyalty to her savior. By her reaction, you would have thought I just confessed to the most grotesque crime. This was so unnecessary and her overreaction made me feel so judged. The word shit isn't even that bad of a word, but to her, it caused noticeable psychological pain. At the same time, she teaches a bible study and is completely ok with teaching her own children and others about Abraham's great sacrifice and Noah's ark. I said, "What the hell" as an offhand remark once to someone I didn't know was Christian. She advised me that Hell should not be used in that way as it was where sinners end up, blah blah blah. Like I took Hell's name in vain. :-) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moanareina Posted June 24, 2014 Share Posted June 24, 2014 If you don't cheat on your spouse just because a book tells you so...if the only reason not to kill someone is a moral code that is put in a book...you clearly have no morals, you just follow morals. Morals of someone else who once thought there where amoral beings out there who needed to be taught or whatever. And as it is in marketing...if there is a product, you need a buyer, so the product found it's target group...or was it the other way round... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Castiel233 Posted June 26, 2014 Share Posted June 26, 2014 Right and wrong? While I think of it, I once read on a Fundie site, where the author wrote that if he didn't make the grade for Heaven, he would love Jesus even harder while he was in Hell or some variant of. Sad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VacuumFlux Posted June 26, 2014 Share Posted June 26, 2014 I could never make sense of morality as a christian. There was this list of rules that seemed to be obvious to everyone else, but not to me. I was told that god's laws were based on eternal principles, on fundamental truths about the nature of reality. But I was always baffled about what those were, or how any of the specific rules connected back to them. So when I deconverted, I really had nothing to start from, and had to build an ethical system from scratch. So I'd call myself as a christian lawful but amoral. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdelsolray Posted June 27, 2014 Share Posted June 27, 2014 christianity's view is that they're right and everybody else is wrong. Well, such behavior is common among many groups of humans. Christians do not have a patent or trademark on this conduct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gall Posted June 27, 2014 Share Posted June 27, 2014 christianity's view is that they're right and everybody else is wrong. Well, such behavior is common among many groups of humans. Christians do not have a patent or trademark on this conduct. The modern neo nazi party probably thinks the same thing and they are like clowns piling into a very tiny car. Christians were not even the first people to do this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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