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Goodbye Jesus

God's Mighty Plan Of Salvation


TheRedneckProfessor

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2 spotted goats, 1 bull, and 7 birds leftover after I had my christian friend try out the biblical cure for leprosy.

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What verse says God killed Job's children? 

 

 

Do you lack reading comprehension?  Everything that happened to Job happened with God's approval.

 

 

 

We don't seem to be concerned or in outrage about some children today.

 

-19,839,720 abortions worldwide so far this year

 

-3.1 million child deaths by hunger a year

 

-3,000 a day by Malaria in Africa

 

Why are you blaming people with limited resources, rather than blaming your supposed all powerful god?!?

 

I'm not an all knowing, all powerful being.  However if I were then I would save those lives.  That is because I am a better person that your imaginary God.

 

Exactly!!

 

 

So if you were all knowing, you would interact in this world and stop all evil? You would be a God who intervenes in

our daily lives?

 

 

YES!!

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What verse says God killed Job's children? 

 

 

Do you lack reading comprehension?  Everything that happened to Job happened with God's approval.

 

 

 

We don't seem to be concerned or in outrage about some children today.

 

-19,839,720 abortions worldwide so far this year

 

-3.1 million child deaths by hunger a year

 

-3,000 a day by Malaria in Africa

 

Why are you blaming people with limited resources, rather than blaming your supposed all powerful god?!?

 

I'm not an all knowing, all powerful being.  However if I were then I would save those lives.  That is because I am a better person that your imaginary God.

 

Exactly!!

 

 

So if you were all knowing, you would interact in this world and stop all evil? You would be a God who intervenes in

our daily lives?

 

 

YES!!

 

 

So, if I was driving over the speed limit you would slow me down to 55?

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IH you really do sound like god:

 

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Job is one of my favorite books in the Bible. It's the oldest scripture in the Bible and 

is worth reading more than a few times. It tackles, I think, realistically with the problem

of pain and suffering.

 

Oh please... Job is probably one of the worst stories in the Bible. If you like the story, then good for you, but this story doesn't even come close to realistically tackling the problem of evil.

 

 

Job's faith is amazing.

 

Yes, though it is true that Job's faith is incredible, the fact that his trust was horribly misplaced is what we ex-Cs get out of this story. The only reason Job remained faithful to Yahweh is because Yahweh kept the truth from Job. If Job really knew what happened between Yahweh and Lucifer (assuming that this story depicts an actual event), the story would have ended very differently.

 

 

And the ending....

 

Epilogue 

 

7 After the Lord had said these things to Job, he said to Eliphaz the Temanite, “I am angry with you and your two friends, because you have not spoken the truth about me, as my servant Job has. 8 So now take seven bulls and seven rams and go to my servant Job and sacrifice a burnt offering for yourselves. My servant Job will pray for you, and I will accept his prayer and not deal with you according to your folly. You have not spoken the truth about me, as my servant Job has.” 9 So Eliphaz the Temanite, Bildad the Shuhite and Zophar the Naamathite did what the Lord told them; and the Lord accepted Job’s prayer.

 

If we were to assume for the sake of discussion that this story did happen as written, how can it be that Job's friends lied about Yahweh? They would have known just as much as Job did about what was actually happening. If they had known that the reason for all of Job's pain was because Yahweh and Lucifer were making bets with each other about what would happen if Lucifer were to totally screw up his life, instead of because he was punishing Job for something, they'd have said otherwise. Also, based on Yahweh's past behavior in the Bible, I'd say that their guess as to why Job was suffering is about as accurate as it could possibly have been, due to their ignorance of the actual situation.

 

What is also sickening is the fact that Yahweh needed them to sacrifice innocent animals because of the things they said. What kind of a monster demands animal sacrifice? Why would Yahweh need that, if he wasn't a blood-thirsty maniac?

 

 

10 After Job had prayed for his friends, the Lord restored his fortunes and gave him twice as much as he had before. 11 All his brothers and sisters and everyone who had known him before came and ate with him in his house. They comforted and consoled him over all the trouble the Lord had brought on him, and each one gave him a piece of silver[a] and a gold ring.

 

I have a question for you, Ironhorse; if I had a son and then willingly gave a gangster permission to destroy everything I gave him and eventually beat him up, does it make the situation okay if I have my son's health restored and give him new versions of the things he lost? If my son had no idea about my conversation with the gangster beforehand, sure, he'd trust me and think that I'm helping him out, but would you, knowing what is going on behind closed doors, consider me to be a good father? If not, why? If you do, please tell me why, that would be an interesting read!

 

 

12 The Lord blessed the latter part of Job’s life more than the former part. He had fourteen thousand sheep, six thousand camels, a thousand yoke of oxen and a thousand donkeys. 13 And he also had seven sons and three daughters. 14 The first daughter he named Jemimah, the second Keziah and the third Keren-Happuch. 15 Nowhere in all the land were there found women as beautiful as Job’s daughters, and their father granted them an inheritance along with their brothers.

 

16 After this, Job lived a hundred and forty years; he saw his children and their children to the fourth generation. 17 And so Job died, an old man and full of years.

 

~Job 42 (New International Version)

 

Ditto.

 

 

The reason why this story completely fails to tackle the problem of evil is that it fails to answer the simple question of, "Why does evil exist?" If Yahweh (God) is eternal and incapable of doing evil, then when did evil come to exist? Did Lucifer just suddenly invent evil when he decided to rebel? If that is so, then how could that be? For Lucifer to even consider doing evil or creating the concept of evil, wouldn't his thoughts have had to have been evil beforehand? If the existence of evil did not come from Lucifer or any of the other fallen angels, then when did it come into existence?

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“God did not create evil. Just as darkness is the absence of light, evil is the absence of God.”

 

~Albert Einstein

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See what I'm saying Crazyguy?  IH just quotes from someone, not knowing that Einstein was a deist and did not believe in the christian god.

But then taking things out of context is the Christian's MO.

 

EDIT: 

He thought it was an answer to Isaiah 45:7 but no dice, Einstein's god was most certainly not the bible god.

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

 

HfE2m.jpg

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See what I'm saying Crazyguy?  IH just quotes from someone, not knowing that Einstein was a deist and did not believe in the christian god.

But then taking things out of context is the Christian's MO.

 

EDIT: 

He thought it was an answer to Isaiah 45:7 but no dice, Einstein's god was most certainly not the bible god.

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

 

HfE2m.jpg

 

 

What did I take out of context?

 

I posted a quote.

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You thought Einstein was talking about bible god, but no, he wasn't.  His god is not bible god.

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What verse says God killed Job's children? 

 

 

Do you lack reading comprehension?  Everything that happened to Job happened with God's approval.

 

 

 

We don't seem to be concerned or in outrage about some children today.

 

-19,839,720 abortions worldwide so far this year

 

-3.1 million child deaths by hunger a year

 

-3,000 a day by Malaria in Africa

 

Why are you blaming people with limited resources, rather than blaming your supposed all powerful god?!?

 

I'm not an all knowing, all powerful being.  However if I were then I would save those lives.  That is because I am a better person that your imaginary God.

 

Exactly!!

 

 

So if you were all knowing, you would interact in this world and stop all evil? You would be a God who intervenes in

our daily lives?

 

 

YES!!

 

 

So, if I was driving over the speed limit you would slow me down to 55?

 

 

Show some grace and stop countering the questions you've been given with answers, not more questions!

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Which is the more graceful (and therefore more truthful) thing for you to do?

 

To deflect and counter questions with questions?

 

To be honest and own up, saying... I don't know?.

.

.

.

If you refuse to answer, because you don't want to lose face - that's just selfish and the truth (and therefore God's grace) is not in you.

 

If you refuse to answer, because you don't want to let your God down, just ask yourself this question.

If love rejoices in the truth, would your God (who is love) want you to hold out for his sake or would he want you to tell the truth - whatever the outcome?

 

The bottom line is this IH, if you love the God of grace and truth, you MUST show grace and truth in your actions.

So when you're asked a question and you don't know the answer - you MUST answer truthfully and fess up to not knowing.

 

Dodging, deflecting and countering question with question is NOT grace-filled and loving behavior.

 

He who lives in love, loves God!

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Wow!  I post a topic that literally accuses god of creating evil and deceiving humanity into unleashing it and then blaming and cursing humanity for falling victim to his own nefarious plot, and rather than attempting to refute a single point I've made, the best TinPony can do is to say, "I like the story of Job."

 

Hey, TinPony, I was impressed with Gus' efforts on this thread.  He, at least, made an honest effort to interact with his own thoughts and words.  Your copy and paste apologetics are pathetic.  

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“God did not create evil. Just as darkness is the absence of light, evil is the absence of God.”

 

~Albert Einstein

Albert Einstein never said this.  This "quote" is from a fabricated e-mail story about Einstein that first circulated about 15 years ago.  It is fiction, most likely composed by a lying and immoral theist.  Not surprisingly, it has been adopted by numerous Christians and repeated over and over again on Christian websites and blogs.  It remains a fiction yet many believe it to be true.

 

Here's a place you can start your research:

 

http://www.snopes.com/religion/einstein.asp

 

And, for extra credit, here's an analysis of the fictional story from which this falsely attributed quote comes from:

 

http://www.rationalresponders.com/debunking_an_urban_legend_evil_is_a_lack_of_something

 

Again, study hard.

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lmao_99.gif

 

Reading this thread is like witnessing a tank driving over a mouse. brutal_01.gif

 

I was hoping the mouse would get a machine gun or something, but so far, the resistance has been pathetic.  Oh well, par for the course in the Lion's den.

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“God did not create evil. Just as darkness is the absence of light, evil is the absence of God.”

 

~Albert Einstein

Albert Einstein never said this.  This "quote" is from a fabricated e-mail story about Einstein that first circulated about 15 years ago.  It is fiction, most likely composed by a lying and immoral theist.  Not surprisingly, it has been adopted by numerous Christians and repeated over and over again on Christian websites and blogs.  It remains a fiction yet many believe it to be true.

 

Here's a place you can start your research:

 

http://www.snopes.com/religion/einstein.asp

 

And, for extra credit, here's an analysis of the fictional story from which this falsely attributed quote comes from:

 

http://www.rationalresponders.com/debunking_an_urban_legend_evil_is_a_lack_of_something

 

Again, study hard.

 

 

How many different threads is he using this statement in at one time?

 

I can't stand urban legend at all. they really show you in a crowd who is using more of their available intelligence at the moment.

 

How would one even know what he said to some professor decades before he was even really published?

 

My guess is he uses this phrase any chance he gets then pats himself for slipping it in there yet again.

 

Am I allowed to call out his asshattery with anything more than pointing out his obvious inability to form a cogent argument?

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ironhorse: Doesn't it at least concern you a bit that Xtians misrepresent what Einstein's position was on the biblical god? If you really want to know Einstein's position on the biblical god, research it. Not

on material created by apologists to misinform people, but from records of what Einstein really said.

That is, if you really want to know the truth. Do you? Really? Apologists lying about Einstein when it is clear that what they say is untrue tells a thinking person something about apologists, doesn't it? bill

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ironhorse: Doesn't it at least concern you a bit that Xtians misrepresent what Einstein's position was on the biblical god?

 

All that matters is God.

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ironhorse: Doesn't it at least concern you a bit that Xtians misrepresent what Einstein's position was on the biblical god?

 

All that matters is God.

 

 

Not quite, MM.

 

God doesn't matter as much to Ironhorse as what he believes.

 

If God love and grace DID matter to him, he'd behave with God's grace and love towards us.  Since he doesn't, God can't matter that much to him.

 

It's that simple folks.  Don't look at what he writes or what he says he believes... look at how he behaves.

 

You'll know them by their fruit.

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Hi

 

Sorry I have not been able to reply to anything, I just have not had the time.

And as I have said on another post, I simply cannot respond to every question. Please don't take that as me dodging the subjects.

 

TRP, thank you for your responses to my explanation.

 

I don’t really want to get into a battle over your points. I don’t agree with them myself (certainly not about the serpent not be Lucifer), but I wont argue the point further.

 

With regards to the book of Job, again I don’t really want to get pulled into a major battle over this. But this is my very short view, one I have heard but not often said. The point here is not to say that it is true, if you don’t believe the bible then it all nonsense anyway.

 

The book of job isone of the only books in the Old Testament that reveals Satan. The reason he is not mentioned anywhere else until the New Testament, is the people where basically powerless against him. Therefore it does not do much good to fight him.

It wasn’t until Jesus defeated Satan at the cross that believers had authority in Christ to stand against his plans.

Which is why in James we are taught to 'resist the devil and he will flee from you'.

 

But in the Old Testament, people could not do that.

 

The book of job reveals to us the reader, what the cause of jobs suffering was. It was Satan.

Job and his friends however did not have this knowledge so though it was God. His friends thinking it was punishment for sin.

 

We can see it was Satan who picked him out because he was a good man, and he wanted to 'sift him as wheat' (which is also shown again in Luke). Satan was 'roaming the earth, watching everything thats going on' looking for a victim. Again, the same warning is giving in 1 Peter.

 

So the question is, did God let him do it? Or in effect, is Satan Gods Rottweiler? Get right with God or he will ‘sic the devil on you!’

 

The following extract is taken from Andrew wommack who has written quite extensively on the book of Job. This explains better than I could write the reason as to why actually, God could not refuse Satan’s request.

 

You might say, “God could stop Satan if He wanted to. Therefore, the devil only does what God allows Him to do.” That’s not true. That’s a religious tradition that will render you passive and prey to the devil.

When God gave Adam unconditional authority over the earth, He gave him His word (Ps. 89:34). There were no strings attached. He didn’t say, “If you blow it, I’ll take back My power and authority.” No! God had to allow what man allowed. The Lord had given man total control over the earth. It was his to govern as he saw fit. Adam then yielded to Satan the power and authority God intended for man.

God is a good God. If it was only up to Him, we would all be blessed (James 1:17). That can be seen in the life of Job. God blessed Job abundantly. He was the greatest man in wealth and integrity of all the people of his day. But Job didn’t have a covenant with God. The Lord didn’t really have the legal right to be so good to Job. Job was a sinner and therefore under Satan’s control. So Satan pressed his case, and the Lord had to turn Job over to Satan because he legally came under Satan’s jurisdiction.

This is why the Lord started making covenants with people like Abraham and, eventually, the whole nation of Israel. If they would comply, then the Lord could legally bless them. This worked, to a degree. The problem was, no one could live up to God’s standard for very long…..

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When God gave Adam unconditional authority over the earth, He gave him His word (Ps. 89:34). There were no strings attached. He didn’t say, “If you blow it, I’ll take back My power and authority.” No! God had to allow what man allowed. The Lord had given man total control over the earth. It was his to govern as he saw fit. Adam then yielded to Satan the power and authority God intended for man.

 

Gus,

 

If you can provide me with a scripture verse from the Genesis record wherein god explains to Adam that by eating the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, Adam would yield his authority to satan, and bring Original Sin into the nature of humanity, then I am willing to accept this argument in its entirety.

 

If such a verse cannot be found in the book of Genesis, then this entire line of reasoning can be dismissed as unsupported by the text.

 

Take note, Gus; I do not care if some new testament writer explained it all 4,000 years after the fact.  I need to see god explaining it to Adam.  If god did not explain it to Adam personally, then my point that god planned the fall as a set-up from the beginning not only still stands, but is further supported by yet another vital piece of information that god witheld in order to ensure that Adam and Eve took the fall.

 

Again, Gus, we cannot simply read into the scripture what we think it should say.  I look forward to your response.

 

Cheers,

TheRedneckProfessor

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The book of job isone of the only books in the Old Testament that reveals Satan. The reason he is not mentioned anywhere else until the New Testament, is the people where basically powerless against him. Therefore it does not do much good to fight him.

It wasn’t until Jesus defeated Satan at the cross that believers had authority in Christ to stand against his plans.

Which is why in James we are taught to 'resist the devil and he will flee from you'.

 

But in the Old Testament, people could not do that.

Hmm... there is the story of the Egyptian magicians casting down their rods, which become snakes, in mimicry of Moses' rod. But his devoured theirs. From a Christian perspective, wouldn't this be a case of a believer's successful battle, as empowered by God, against Satan? The OT doesn't present every Jew as having this status, but it does present the people of Israel as triumphing over other gods - which, in the eyes of the early Christians, were actually demons.
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The following extract is taken from Andrew wommack who has written quite extensively on the book of Job. This explains better than I could write the reason as to why actually, God could not refuse Satan’s request.

 

You might say, “God could stop Satan if He wanted to. Therefore, the devil only does what God allows Him to do.” That’s not true. That’s a religious tradition that will render you passive and prey to the devil.

When God gave Adam unconditional authority over the earth, He gave him His word (Ps. 89:34). There were no strings attached. He didn’t say, “If you blow it, I’ll take back My power and authority.” No! God had to allow what man allowed. The Lord had given man total control over the earth. It was his to govern as he saw fit. Adam then yielded to Satan the power and authority God intended for man.

God is a good God. If it was only up to Him, we would all be blessed (James 1:17). That can be seen in the life of Job. God blessed Job abundantly. He was the greatest man in wealth and integrity of all the people of his day. But Job didn’t have a covenant with God. The Lord didn’t really have the legal right to be so good to Job. Job was a sinner and therefore under Satan’s control. So Satan pressed his case, and the Lord had to turn Job over to Satan because he legally came under Satan’s jurisdiction.

This is why the Lord started making covenants with people like Abraham and, eventually, the whole nation of Israel. If they would comply, then the Lord could legally bless them. This worked, to a degree. The problem was, no one could live up to God’s standard for very long…..

A few observations on Wommack's apologetic:

God can't stop Satan, even though Satan is his agent.

Job is labeled a sinner even though God said otherwise:

Job 1:8

And the Lord said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?

 

The Lord created evil (Isa 45:7), and if God is only good, then evil must also be good.

The idea that God simply had to turn Job over to his agent Satan for torture is admitting that God isn't all powerful or all good.

It was God that suggested Job to Satan for testing.

It was his idea.

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The following extract is taken from Andrew wommack who has written quite extensively on the book of Job. This explains better than I could write the reason as to why actually, God could not refuse Satan’s request.

 

You might say, “God could stop Satan if He wanted to. Therefore, the devil only does what God allows Him to do.” That’s not true. That’s a religious tradition that will render you passive and prey to the devil.

When God gave Adam unconditional authority over the earth, He gave him His word (Ps. 89:34). There were no strings attached. He didn’t say, “If you blow it, I’ll take back My power and authority.” No! God had to allow what man allowed. The Lord had given man total control over the earth. It was his to govern as he saw fit. Adam then yielded to Satan the power and authority God intended for man.

God is a good God. If it was only up to Him, we would all be blessed (James 1:17). That can be seen in the life of Job. God blessed Job abundantly. He was the greatest man in wealth and integrity of all the people of his day. But Job didn’t have a covenant with God. The Lord didn’t really have the legal right to be so good to Job. Job was a sinner and therefore under Satan’s control. So Satan pressed his case, and the Lord had to turn Job over to Satan because he legally came under Satan’s jurisdiction.

This is why the Lord started making covenants with people like Abraham and, eventually, the whole nation of Israel. If they would comply, then the Lord could legally bless them. This worked, to a degree. The problem was, no one could live up to God’s standard for very long…..

A few observations on Wommack's apologetic:

God can't stop Satan, even though Satan is his agent.

Job is labeled a sinner even though God said otherwise:

Job 1:8

And the Lord said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?

 

The Lord created evil (Isa 45:7), and if God is only good, then evil must also be good.

The idea that God simply had to turn Job over to his agent Satan for torture is admitting that God isn't all powerful or all good.

It was God that suggested Job to Satan for testing.

It was his idea.

 

Satan is not Gods agent.

Ill get back to this when I respond to RNP.

 

Job was as perfect as a man could possibly at the time, but he stil had a sinful nature. Abraham was held in equally high regard and yet his actions show he sinned. It is believed the book Job was very early, and the law had not yet come into place yet, so his sins where not being imputeed to him yet.

 

When God said 'Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?', he wasn't bringing Satans attention to Job and saying, 'here look at this guy you can't pick fault with him!'

God knew what Satan was up to and whom he had chosen to have. God was basicaly saying 'So, you have considered Job have you? And you know that there is no like him, and you think he is only an upright man because I bless him so much?'

Satan was now acussing God himself. That's why he wanted to take away all Job had, and see how he responded.

Even if God let him test Job when he could have stopped it (which I don't personally adhere to but won't competley dismiss either), God knew he could trust Job. And at the end God restored eveything back and twice as much. God was never going to abandon him.

 

As I have already said,the word Evil in Isaiah is only found in maybe two translations incuding the King James.

It is just an old english term that can mean ruin, destruction, bad (not to be mistaken as evil), and such.

As an example, in Jeremiah 24, God has a converation with Jeremiah about figs. In the King James they are reffered to as 'Evil figs'. In fact they where 'very evil and cannot be eaten they are so evil.' Did these figs grow fangs and suck blood? No, there where just bad, rotten, no good to eat.

 

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What rubbish!  There was no Satan in Job.  The Book of Job was written for a completely different religion.  Job worshiped God Most High who was the father of 70 other deities including The Adversary.  God Most High was not a loving god nor all good.  This story was rewritten for Judaism that came later in Ezra's time.  Then the Romans reinterpreted it to fit their new religion.  Now modern Christians spin it again to make it fit their version of Christianity.

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Hi

 

Sorry I have not been able to reply to anything, I just have not had the time.

And as I have said on another post, I simply cannot respond to every question. Please don't take that as me dodging the subjects.

 

TRP, thank you for your responses to my explanation.

 

I don’t really want to get into a battle over your points. I don’t agree with them myself (certainly not about the serpent not be Lucifer), but I wont argue the point further.

 

With regards to the book of Job, again I don’t really want to get pulled into a major battle over this. But this is my very short view, one I have heard but not often said. The point here is not to say that it is true, if you don’t believe the bible then it all nonsense anyway.

 

The book of job isone of the only books in the Old Testament that reveals Satan. The reason he is not mentioned anywhere else until the New Testament, is the people where basically powerless against him. Therefore it does not do much good to fight him.

It wasn’t until Jesus defeated Satan at the cross that believers had authority in Christ to stand against his plans.

Which is why in James we are taught to 'resist the devil and he will flee from you'.

 

But in the Old Testament, people could not do that.

 

The book of job reveals to us the reader, what the cause of jobs suffering was. It was Satan.

Job and his friends however did not have this knowledge so though it was God. His friends thinking it was punishment for sin.

 

We can see it was Satan who picked him out because he was a good man, and he wanted to 'sift him as wheat' (which is also shown again in Luke). Satan was 'roaming the earth, watching everything thats going on' looking for a victim. Again, the same warning is giving in 1 Peter.

 

So the question is, did God let him do it? Or in effect, is Satan Gods Rottweiler? Get right with God or he will ‘sic the devil on you!’

 

The following extract is taken from Andrew wommack who has written quite extensively on the book of Job. This explains better than I could write the reason as to why actually, God could not refuse Satan’s request.

 

You might say, “God could stop Satan if He wanted to. Therefore, the devil only does what God allows Him to do.” That’s not true. That’s a religious tradition that will render you passive and prey to the devil.

When God gave Adam unconditional authority over the earth, He gave him His word (Ps. 89:34). There were no strings attached. He didn’t say, “If you blow it, I’ll take back My power and authority.” No! God had to allow what man allowed. The Lord had given man total control over the earth. It was his to govern as he saw fit. Adam then yielded to Satan the power and authority God intended for man.

God is a good God. If it was only up to Him, we would all be blessed (James 1:17). That can be seen in the life of Job. God blessed Job abundantly. He was the greatest man in wealth and integrity of all the people of his day. But Job didn’t have a covenant with God. The Lord didn’t really have the legal right to be so good to Job. Job was a sinner and therefore under Satan’s control. So Satan pressed his case, and the Lord had to turn Job over to Satan because he legally came under Satan’s jurisdiction.

This is why the Lord started making covenants with people like Abraham and, eventually, the whole nation of Israel. If they would comply, then the Lord could legally bless them. This worked, to a degree. The problem was, no one could live up to God’s standard for very long…..

Using mere assertions within your Christian Apologetics is quite efficient.  Using another's mere assertions within that other's Christian Apologetics is even more efficient.

 

Nevertheless, mere assertions are mere assertions, and nothing more.

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