ironhorse Posted July 13, 2014 Posted July 13, 2014 But would you take it literally? Some I do and some I take as figurative language. For example, I hold to the Old Earth Creation view that the six days of creation were not literal 24 hour days. I have friends who hold to the Young Earth Creation view that they were indeed six 24 hour days. Problem with your view tho is it says there was morning and night, the first day, second, ect. Also without sun and moon :/ Here's a good explanation: http://www.oldearth.org/genesis1.htm There are points on both sides and like I said I have friends who have counter views. It's very interesting think read and study but none of us will know all the truth on this side of eternity.
SpaceWrangler Posted July 13, 2014 Posted July 13, 2014 But would you take it literally? Some I do and some I take as figurative language. For example, I hold to the Old Earth Creation view that the six days of creation were not literal 24 hour days. I have friends who hold to the Young Earth Creation view that they were indeed six 24 hour days. Problem with your view tho is it says there was morning and night, the first day, second, ect. Also without sun and moon :/ Here's a good explanation: http://www.oldearth.org/genesis1.htm There are points on both sides and like I said I have friends who have counter views. It's very interesting think read and study but none of us will know all the truth on this side of eternity. Again, it doesn't matter what yom means in this instance or if it was used. It clearly states...there was evening and morning, the first day. And repeats after every day. Meaning a literal 24 hr period.
SpaceWrangler Posted July 13, 2014 Posted July 13, 2014 Also I need to add that ha-satan means accuser as well as adversary. God was an adversary at times in OT as in seen in the 2 accounts of David's census where once ha-satan tells him to take it then god does. Same story with contradictions. Then god punishes everyone but David :0
duderonomy Posted July 13, 2014 Posted July 13, 2014 But would you take it literally? Some I do and some I take as figurative language. For example, I hold to the Old Earth Creation view that the six days of creation were not literal 24 hour days. I have friends who hold to the Young Earth Creation view that they were indeed six 24 hour days. Ironhorse, how long were each of the days of creation in the Old Earth Creation, then? It's important to us seekers, because we need to know how long God rested on the seventh day, so we can follow that example and be perfect as our Father in Heaven is perfect. More importantly, which parts are literal and which parts are figurative? I'm dying to believe, but I'm not sure which is which. Can you help me? I mean, to me, if God is who He says He is, then if I believe in Jesus, I'm OK. I'll assume it's the Jesus of the Bible and not any one of the baseball players named Jesus, although how can I know that for sure? My eternal life is based on what I believe, isn't it? Really, Ironhorse, if it's left to people like you and me to figure all of this out, then the Bible, with some of it being literal and some of it being not literal, and we being of deceitful hearts, or maybe just regular hearts and the brains God gave us, how do we know what to believe? You may as well write your own Bible. If one can't take it all as literal, then which parts are figurative fiction?
midniterider Posted July 13, 2014 Posted July 13, 2014 The parts of the bible that say, "We are all sinners" and "Jesus died for our sins" is figurative, for sure. The parts that talk about Jesus being born and later hanging from a cross are of course, figurative. The part where Jesus rises from the dead...figurative. John 3:16...figurative. The part about tithing...figurative. The Ten Commandments...figurative.
bornagainathiest Posted July 13, 2014 Posted July 13, 2014 You ever consider the multiverse being levels of Heaven? That's a new question. There's unfinished business between us.
Gus Posted July 13, 2014 Posted July 13, 2014 Look, if you really want an answer to your question I'll give you one. I know what the bible says thanks. But i'll give one only if you are prepared to drop the attitude. Deal? There is another positive claim. You know what the bible says. 1 Sam 15: 15 Samuel said to Saul, “I am the one the Lord sent to anoint you king over his people Israel; so listen now to the message from the Lord. 2 This is what the Lord Almighty says: ‘I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt. 3 Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy[a] all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.’” So you claim that you know of this verse. You still claim that your god is the one true god (being a christian) and you claim that your god is all good. My question is then (as I have said before) WOULD YOU OBEY HIS ORDERS if you lived during that time. So you cant drop the attitude then? I'll pass on responding with an answer to your question.
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted July 13, 2014 Author Super Moderator Posted July 13, 2014 Why is it so hard for non-believers to be ok with not knowing? I don't know. 4
Roz Posted July 13, 2014 Posted July 13, 2014 Look, if you really want an answer to your question I'll give you one. I know what the bible says thanks. But i'll give one only if you are prepared to drop the attitude. Deal? There is another positive claim. You know what the bible says. 1 Sam 15: 15 Samuel said to Saul, “I am the one the Lord sent to anoint you king over his people Israel; so listen now to the message from the Lord. 2 This is what the Lord Almighty says: ‘I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt. 3 Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy[a] all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.’” So you claim that you know of this verse. You still claim that your god is the one true god (being a christian) and you claim that your god is all good. My question is then (as I have said before) WOULD YOU OBEY HIS ORDERS if you lived during that time. So you cant drop the attitude then? I'll pass on responding with an answer to your question. I think I know your answer anyways, murderer.
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted July 13, 2014 Author Super Moderator Posted July 13, 2014 When God gave Adam unconditional authority over the earth, He gave him His word (Ps. 89:34). There were no strings attached. He didn’t say, “If you blow it, I’ll take back My power and authority.” No! God had to allow what man allowed. The Lord had given man total control over the earth. It was his to govern as he saw fit. Adam then yielded to Satan the power and authority God intended for man. Gus, If you can provide me with a scripture verse from the Genesis record wherein god explains to Adam that by eating the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, Adam would yield his authority to satan, and bring Original Sin into the nature of humanity, then I am willing to accept this argument in its entirety. If such a verse cannot be found in the book of Genesis, then this entire line of reasoning can be dismissed as unsupported by the text. Take note, Gus; I do not care if some new testament writer explained it all 4,000 years after the fact. I need to see god explaining it to Adam. If god did not explain it to Adam personally, then my point that god planned the fall as a set-up from the beginning not only still stands, but is further supported by yet another vital piece of information that god witheld in order to ensure that Adam and Eve took the fall. Again, Gus, we cannot simply read into the scripture what we think it should say. I look forward to your response. Cheers, TheRedneckProfessor HI RNP and sorry for late reply, I am busy (lots of people to train in the gym!) and can't be on this site that often. I cannot provide you with a specific scripture from Genesis that says what you want it to, so if that is what you are looking for, sorry I cannot help and you are free to dismiss my theory. However, I don’t think you need to have one as there is evidence through the bible that this is the case. On numerous occasions Satan is credited with having some authority and power over the earth. His biggest claim was to Jesus himself that he could give him authority as it had been given to him. Of course, this claim itself may not be true as Satan is called 'the father of lies', but what is interesting is that Jesus did not discredited it. More like, his claim was a truth, but giving it up was the lie. There are also references to him as God of this earth, prince of this world and the prince of the power of the air. Satan does not own the earth, which is Gods. But he has authority to wield huge influence (on people, government and any man made systems) and has some power to affect it physically. Another suggestion I gave only just had proposed to me is that Satan already had power on the earth before Adam and Eve fell from relationship with God, and when cast out of Eden, they effectively entered Satan’s domain. And this is what God is now rescuing us from. The bible is not clear on when Satan was cast from heaven and onto the earth, it could have happened pre-genesis. Personally, I don't quit buy into this as it would not make sense for God put man on earth with the devil already lingering around. I still think he changed in the garden, and was originally sent there to minister to Adam and Eve. Gus, In the beginning, god said this to Adam and Eve: 28 God blessed them and said to them, “Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky and over every living creature that moves on the ground.” 29 Then God said, “I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food. 30 And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds in the sky and all the creatures that move along the ground—everything that has the breath of life in it—I give every green plant for food.” And it was so. Genesis chapter 1 Then, according to your position, Adam gave the authority to Satan by eating the fruit. Leaving aside that the serpent wasn't actually Satan (as has been demonstrated by myself and others), Adam did not actually give anything. If we examine the text, we see that the serpent merely discussed the fruit with Eve, who then ate it and gave some to Adam. If authority changed hands during the course of that activity, then at best, the authority was usurped by duplicitous means. Adam is never seen in the text having a formal dialogue with the serpent; he therefore could not render the authority to Satan. Eve did have a dialogue with the serpent; however the topic of authority didn't come up. Nevertheless, long after these events, god said this to Noah: 1Then God blessed Noah and his sons, saying to them, “Be fruitful and increase in number and fill the earth. 2 The fear and dread of you will fall on all the beasts of the earth, and on all the birds in the sky, on every creature that moves along the ground, and on all the fish in the sea; they are given into your hands. 3 Everything that lives and moves about will be food for you. Just as I gave you the green plants, I now give you everything. 4 “But you must not eat meat that has its lifeblood still in it. 5 And for your lifeblood I will surely demand an accounting. I will demand an accounting from every animal. And from each human being, too, I will demand an accounting for the life of another human being. 6 “Whoever sheds human blood, by humans shall their blood be shed; for in the image of God has God made mankind. 7 As for you, be fruitful and increase in number; multiply on the earth and increase upon it.” But... Wait a minute... I'm confused! Isn't this the exact same speech he made to Adam whenever he gave the exact same authority to him? How was god able to give the exact same authority to Noah if that authority belonged to Satan? Perhaps you should reconsider your position. *Texts pulled from https://www.biblegateway.com/
Guest end3 Posted July 13, 2014 Posted July 13, 2014 Why is it so hard for non-believers to be ok with not knowing?I don't know. Have noticed over the years here that some have seemingly placed a religious-like emphasis on knowing......I expect for their own security. I don't condemn those, rather feel a little empathetic. I don't think it brings real peace....it can't.
Roz Posted July 13, 2014 Posted July 13, 2014 Why is it so hard for non-believers to be ok with not knowing?I don't know. Have noticed over the years here that some have seemingly placed a religious-like emphasis on knowing......I expect for their own security. I don't condemn those, rather feel a little empathetic. I don't think it brings real peace....it can't. Time to dissect another unsubstantiated christian assertion. This is like those other christian assertions "oh, the atheists just heard the gospel from the wrong church, they hate god, they just want to sin, etc." There is a difference between being comfortable in the default position (I don't know) and criticizing a claim (Christianity). I am comfortable being an agnostic atheist while still testing out the different positive claims for god. Since I have a christian background and since this is Ex-C it's only natural that the critiques of the christian god be here. This is the honest stance. You begin with "I don't know" and test out the different claims of people claiming they "know" that their god is THE god. In order to critique the positive claim of Christianity, we must naturally know the subject matter. I personally would like to know the clear, unambiguous answer as to why the christian god ordered slavery, rape, child molestation, murder, and wholescale genocide. Remember what the christian god, yeshitwa, claimed about praying to him? "If you ask anything in my name, it will be given to you." So far, the answers to why it is morally just to kill a child falls short. More importantly, since there is precedent of the christian god ordering humans to commit these acts, I would like to know from the christians themselves if they would ever follow such orders. In another matter, I would like to know why End3 has different theologies than IH, and IH has different theologies than Gus, and so on and so forth. End3 even entertains the notion that there's multiple levels of heaven, which the Mormons endorse but no one else. Get your stories straight in the whole of christendom first, before presenting your "truths."
Guest end3 Posted July 13, 2014 Posted July 13, 2014 2Co 12:2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know—God knows. And reasonably sure the word heaven here translates to "universe".
Roz Posted July 13, 2014 Posted July 13, 2014 2Co 12:2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know—God knows. And reasonably sure the word heaven here translates to "universe". And no citation or proof that the word even translates to "Universe." Using the bible to prove the bible is circular reasoning. What's worse, 40k+ denominations (all filled with people just as fervent in their christian faith as End3 is in his own version of it) disagree with multiple heavens. Is this another one of those christian theories? Like the one where genetic predisposition gave god the moral high ground in ordering male children to be killed by his chosen people?
Guest end3 Posted July 13, 2014 Posted July 13, 2014 ouranos Outline of Biblical Usage I.the vaulted expanse of the sky with all things visible in it A.the universe, the world B.the aerial heavens or sky, the region where the clouds and the tempests gather, and where thunder and lightning are produced C.the sidereal or starry heavens II.the region above the sidereal heavens, the seat of order of things eternal and consummately perfect where God dwells and other heavenly beings Blue Letter Bible "tools". I am no language scholar
◊ crazyguy123 ◊ Posted July 13, 2014 Posted July 13, 2014 Look, if you really want an answer to your question I'll give you one. I know what the bible says thanks. But i'll give one only if you are prepared to drop the attitude. Deal? There is another positive claim. You know what the bible says. 1 Sam 15: 15 Samuel said to Saul, “I am the one the Lord sent to anoint you king over his people Israel; so listen now to the message from the Lord. 2 This is what the Lord Almighty says: ‘I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt. 3 Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy[a] all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.’” So you claim that you know of this verse. You still claim that your god is the one true god (being a christian) and you claim that your god is all good. My question is then (as I have said before) WOULD YOU OBEY HIS ORDERS if you lived during that time. So you cant drop the attitude then? I'll pass on responding with an answer to your question. I think I know your answer anyways, murderer. How can you expect to have a discussion with the believers here in the Den if you're just going to act like an asshole? You must realize that the reason why believers are going to try to come up with reasons for why their god was justified in commanding the deaths of innocent children is because, according to their dogma, he MUST be totally good and they are desperate to believe that is the case. You're dealing with sheep, who are trying to excuse their "totally good" shepherd for his extremely abusive behavior because, on some level, I imagine that they are terrified of what would happen if they were to see that abuse for what it actually is, not members of the Taliban.
◊ crazyguy123 ◊ Posted July 13, 2014 Posted July 13, 2014 Look, if you really want an answer to your question I'll give you one. I know what the bible says thanks. But i'll give one only if you are prepared to drop the attitude. Deal? There is another positive claim. You know what the bible says. 1 Sam 15: 15 Samuel said to Saul, “I am the one the Lord sent to anoint you king over his people Israel; so listen now to the message from the Lord. 2 This is what the Lord Almighty says: ‘I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt. 3 Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy[a] all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.’” So you claim that you know of this verse. You still claim that your god is the one true god (being a christian) and you claim that your god is all good. My question is then (as I have said before) WOULD YOU OBEY HIS ORDERS if you lived during that time. So you cant drop the attitude then? I'll pass on responding with an answer to your question. Perhaps you could answer the question for everyone else. I'm sure that Roz isn't the only one who is curious to see how you would respond if your god were to say to you, "Go to Community X and kill the people of that community. Do not spare them! Put to death men, women, children and infants, and all of the animals they own."
Thackerie Posted July 13, 2014 Posted July 13, 2014 Gus, why do you feel the need to make sense of what is so clearly absurd? To christians in general: why is it so hard to say, "I don't know?" Because they're afraid of the chasm that we step over. They must make some sense of all the absurdities of the bible, or else they kiss their eternal party boat with yeshitwa goodbye. No eternal life, no eternal happiness, no nothing. They cannot understand that the default position is "I don't know." We all don't know if there really are more powerful beings out there, much less if they're interested in our lives. They just know that if they don't kiss hank's ass, then that's it for them. Another intelligent and well thought out reply that I guess i have to expect on this forum ho hum Yes, it is intelligent and well-thought-out because it describes precisely not only what we've seen but also what we've been. If you just don't "get it," it's your intelligence that should be in question.
Roz Posted July 13, 2014 Posted July 13, 2014 Wow... you're now claiming that the first level of heaven (A) is the world (or the universe? heh). The 2nd level B is our atmosphere? C, outer space? And also it could be another matter entirely, which is where your god (you claim it as christian, remember?) dwells? And this is all pointing back where? Oh of course, the bible. You use the blue letter bible to substantiate your claim again. Just like a muslim validates his claims through the koran. Damn, you've reverted to IH levels.
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted July 13, 2014 Author Super Moderator Posted July 13, 2014 Why is it so hard for non-believers to be ok with not knowing?I don't know. Have noticed over the years here that some have seemingly placed a religious-like emphasis on knowing......I expect for their own security. I don't condemn those, rather feel a little empathetic. I don't think it brings real peace....it can't. I don't know about that.
sdelsolray Posted July 13, 2014 Posted July 13, 2014 Why is it so hard for non-believers to be ok with not knowing?I don't know. Have noticed over the years here that some have seemingly placed a religious-like emphasis on knowing......I expect for their own security. I don't condemn those, rather feel a little empathetic. I don't think it brings real peace....it can't. I don't know about that. I don't know about that either. But I do know I don't know, at least I think I know that I don't know. Does that count? 1
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted July 13, 2014 Author Super Moderator Posted July 13, 2014 2Co 12:2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know—God knows. And reasonably sure the word heaven here translates to "universe". heav·en/ˈhevən/ noun a place regarded in various religions as the abode of God (or the gods) and the angels, and of the good after death, often traditionally depicted as being above the sky. the sky, especially perceived as a vault in which the sun, moon, stars, and planets are situated. u·ni·verse/ˈyo͞onəˌvərs/ noun all existing matter and space considered as a whole; the cosmos. The universe is believed to be at least 10 billion light years in diameter and contains a vast number of galaxies; it has been expanding since its creation in the Big Bang about 13 billion years ago. No it doesn't.
Guest end3 Posted July 13, 2014 Posted July 13, 2014 Wow... you're now claiming that the first level of heaven (A) is the world (or the universe? heh). The 2nd level B is our atmosphere? C, outer space? And also it could be another matter entirely, which is where your god (you claim it as christian, remember?) dwells? And this is all pointing back where? Oh of course, the bible. You use the blue letter bible to substantiate your claim again. Just like a muslim validates his claims through the koran. Damn, you've reverted to IH levels. Roz, I have no idea what "third heaven" would be other than taking it somewhat literal. One heaven, two heavens, three heavens. My mind speculates this might mean more than one universe or sky that we see. Is this what theoretical physics/math is speculating? Good question.
sdelsolray Posted July 13, 2014 Posted July 13, 2014 Here's a good explanation: http://www.oldearth.org/genesis1.htm … An attempt to show that Old Earth Creationism (OEC) is less fanciful than Young Earth Creationism (YEC). At this it succeeds. In terms of demonstrating the truth of what it asserts, it fails.
Guest end3 Posted July 13, 2014 Posted July 13, 2014 2Co 12:2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know—God knows. And reasonably sure the word heaven here translates to "universe". heav·en/ˈhevən/ noun a place regarded in various religions as the abode of God (or the gods) and the angels, and of the good after death, often traditionally depicted as being above the sky. the sky, especially perceived as a vault in which the sun, moon, stars, and planets are situated. u·ni·verse/ˈyo͞onəˌvərs/ noun all existing matter and space considered as a whole; the cosmos. The universe is believed to be at least 10 billion light years in diameter and contains a vast number of galaxies; it has been expanding since its creation in the Big Bang about 13 billion years ago. No it doesn't. Our definitions now vs. previous definitions? ha.
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