Jump to content

Something For End3 To Resolve.


bornagainathiest
 Share

Recommended Posts

Please resolve these, End.

 

1.

Please explain (without invoking your faith) how the innocent and uninformed Adam and Eve would have understood what good and evil were.

 

2.

Please explain (without invoking your faith) how the innocent and uninformed Adam and Eve would have understood what death was.

 

3.

Please explain (without invoking your faith) how Adam and Eve had free will before they were tempted by the serpent.

 

 

 

  • Like 6
Link to comment
Share on other sites

You know he's had plenty of time to answer this, but yet just keeps spouting nonsense at X's free will thread.  No answers for any of these yet.  Maybe he'll pull a BGT or a Thumby.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Super Moderator

You know he's had plenty of time to answer this, but yet just keeps spouting nonsense at X's free will thread.  No answers for any of these yet.  Maybe he'll pull a BGT or a Thumby.

Nah.  End's been around here to long to pull ghost on us.  He might avoid/ignore/duck certain issues, but ain't nobody leaving. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Why would we need another thread for this???

 

1 and 2, they wouldn't.

 

3. Per the resident argument, if they would have known 1 & 2 it would have violated "free will".

 

 

"the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion."

 

So why does Adam NOT have free will BEFORE he makes the decision?

 

And yes, I believe POST Adam, we do not share that same free will.

 

Fair enough?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Super Moderator

I still don't understand how understanding the difference between two items infringes upon the freedom to make a choice.  It seems perfectly clear to me that understanding what each item is/represents would only enhance one's ability to choose.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Why would we need another thread for this???1 and 2, they wouldn't.3. Per the resident argument, if they would have known 1 & 2 it would have violated "free will"."the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion."So why does Adam NOT have free will BEFORE he makes the decision?And yes, I believe POST Adam, we do not share that same free will.Fair enough?

Did it violate your childrens' free will when you explained to them the difference between good and evil?

 

Dit it violate your childrens' free will when you explained to them what death means?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

.....without the constraint of necessity or fate.

You shoot yourself in the foot. Adam's choices were constrained by fate, the threat of death! Either way, this whole free will argument is a red herring. If god is all-knowing/powerful, then there is no such thing as human free will, only god's will. Therefore, we cannot be justly blamed or praised for anything. It's all god's fault.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

 

.....without the constraint of necessity or fate.

...or the threat of eternal hellfire.
He didn't do that.

I'm always amazed when Christians manage to lie to themselves about this.

 

So if gawd didn't create hell... then who did?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1.

Please explain (without invoking your faith) how the innocent and uninformed Adam and Eve would have understood what good and evil were.

 

2.

Please explain (without invoking your faith) how the innocent and uninformed Adam and Eve would have understood what death was.

 

 

 

As an ex-believer who has a fair amount of Bible education, I'll bite.

 

The story is that they didn't understand, and the knowledge itself - forbidden, God-like knowledge - was the real temptation.

 

That said, I have yet to find a satisfying explanation for what exactly is meant by 'knowledge of good and evil.'  Or how exactly this knowledge equates to some irreversible curse of 'original sin,' which seems to be Paul's idea.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

1.

 

Please explain (without invoking your faith) how the innocent and uninformed Adam and Eve would have understood what good and evil were.

 

2.

Please explain (without invoking your faith) how the innocent and uninformed Adam and Eve would have understood what death was.

 

 

 

 

As an ex-believer who has a fair amount of Bible education, I'll bite.

 

The story is that they didn't understand, and the knowledge itself - forbidden, God-like knowledge - was the real temptation.

 

That said, I have yet to find a satisfying explanation for what exactly is meant by 'knowledge of good and evil.' Or how exactly this knowledge equates to some irreversible curse of 'original sin,' which seems to be Paul's idea.

The idea that it was "the knowledge of good and evil" that was forbidden is one major indicator to me that the story was metaphorical. Even as a Christian, I had a hard time seeing it as a literal account.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

1.

Please explain (without invoking your faith) how the innocent and uninformed Adam and Eve would have understood what good and evil were.

 

2.

Please explain (without invoking your faith) how the innocent and uninformed Adam and Eve would have understood what death was.

 

 

 

As an ex-believer who has a fair amount of Bible education, I'll bite.

 

The story is that they didn't understand, and the knowledge itself - forbidden, God-like knowledge - was the real temptation.

 

That said, I have yet to find a satisfying explanation for what exactly is meant by 'knowledge of good and evil.'  Or how exactly this knowledge equates to some irreversible curse of 'original sin,' which seems to be Paul's idea.

 

 

DoubtingNate, I've also thought about what the scriptures meant 'knowledge of good and evil.'

The following is an explanation that helped me.

 

From:

http://www.biblicaltraining.org/blog/curious-christian/4-3-2012/what-tree-knowledge-good-and-evil

 

In Genesis 2:17 where you have the Garden of Eden story and God’s prohibition he says, “You can eat of any tree you want but you must not eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die.” Now, I have a question. Why wouldn’t he want them to eat of that tree most of all? Wouldn’t God want them to know all about good and evil? Isn’t that just the right tree to eat from? The tree of the knowledge of good and evil—know what is good, know what is bad, be able to choose between them, right?

 

Actually it is misleading. Here is the situation. The knowledge of good and evil is what is called a “merism.” Let me give you some examples very quickly. In the Bible we really have a lot of merisms. A merism is an expression of totality by the mention of polarity. You mention some opposites and it implies everything in between. For example, the west and the east are used as merisms. Heaven and hell, if I ascend to heaven there you are, if I go to Sheol there you are. Does that mean that God is only at the two extremes? No, he is everywhere, that is the point. Near and far are used as merisms. “Peace to the far and peace to the near,” says the Lord. In other words peace to everybody. More examples of merisms— “going out and coming in” is a fairly common merism. “The Lord will keep your going out and your coming in,” meaning the Lord will take care of everything in your life.

 

Then “good and evil” is actually a very common merism. It means “any kind of thing” or it means “everything.” Their idols cannot speak, cannot walk, cannot do evil, cannot do good, meaning they just cannot do anything. The knowledge of good and evil is a way of saying in Hebrew “all knowledge, knowledge of everything” and that is what God does not want people to know.

 

If you read the story, you see that is what Satan says. He says, “Hey, he knows you will become like gods knowing everything. That is what he is trying to keep from you. Don’t you want to know everything?” Knowing everything sounds interesting. And they do and after the fall God says, he is speaking again in heaven as he often does in many places in Scripture not just Genesis, “Look they have become like one of us, they know good and evil, they know everything.” Does that mean that they actually know everything? You say, “Alright, immediately draw me a graph for the following equation.” No, it takes time to know that. The idea is that we now have more knowledge than we can morally handle. That is the point of what is emphasized here in this story.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Super Moderator

Again we are invited to believe that the bible doesn't mean what it says.  How can christians accept that the bible is true when it so often doesn't mean what it says?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Again we are invited to believe that the bible doesn't mean what it says.  How can christians accept that the bible is true when it so often doesn't mean what it says?

 

I posted an explanation on Genesis 2:17, a text being discussed, for you and

others to read. It helped in my understanding, so I shared.

 

I accept the Bible. 

I believe the central message of the Bible is the revelation of God's plan and purpose for the universe.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Super Moderator

 

Again we are invited to believe that the bible doesn't mean what it says.  How can christians accept that the bible is true when it so often doesn't mean what it says?

 

If your questions are comments are directed to me, here is my reply.

 

I posted an explanation on Genesis 2:17, a text being discussed, for you and

others to read. It helped in my understanding, so I shared.

 

I accept the Bible.

I believe the central message of the Bible is the revelation of God's plan and purpose for the universe.

 

The gods said, "Let us make man in our own image" (Gen 1:26).  The serpent told Eve she could become like the gods (gen 3:5).  The gods said, "Man has now become like us" (Gen 3:22).

 

Realizing that this story was originally written from a polytheistic perspective might help you to understand that it is a myth.  That understanding might go a long way in helping you realize that "god" doesn't have a plan or a purpose for the universe.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

The Jews consider the usage of the words, 'we' and 'us' in Genesis to be majestic plurals.  

 

The royal We.  Singular, not plural.  

 

No Trinity in Genesis!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Guidelines.