Our Apostasy: How Does It Square With Your Understanding Of The Bible?

[Leo]

For fellow ex-Christians:

Have you looked at the texts the Bible claims to say about us? How do they square with what is really going on in your life? They talk about returning to wicked ways. Have you done any returning at all? What wicked ways? They talk about our state being worse than if we had not tasted at all. Does that square with you?

 

To Christians:

Do you see a bunch of reprobates on this site? How does what you see here square with the verses in Peter and the other epistles talking about us apostates? If you have read any of our personal accounts, how does that square with what you read in your bible?

 

One more thing to fellow exChristians:

Did you ever hear testimony of exChristians dying, falling into disaster, or something similar?

 

I'll put my thoughts as an ex in my next post.I do h

ope to hear some thoughtful answers from Christians on this, too.

[florduh]

I think our "wicked ways" must consist of not enduring weekly indoctrination sessions or paying our weekly protection money. I personally don't know anyone who was, either pre-Christian or post-Christian, a robber, murderer, or Pagan priest.

[mymistake]

My life is basically the same except no church and a lot less guilt.

[Leo]

For fellow ex-Christians:

Have you looked at the texts the Bible claims to say about us? How do they square with what is really going on in your life? They talk about returning to wicked ways. Have you done any returning at all? What wicked ways? They talk about our state being worse than if we had not tasted at all. Does that square with you?

"They went out from us, but they were not of us, " ... I believe it says. The No True Scottsman fallacy. I'm not offended if Christians think that.

I know personally at one time, I was the firebreathing kind, for a couple years, but for most of it, I have secretly harbored a lot of doubt.

 

Then there's the returning to the vomit, in a worse state now than we ever had been, and so on. Even got told some of that as a teengagerby some family after a summer spent away from home.

Except, in this case, I have been waking up to realization, escaping the awful sleep paralysis where you know something is terribly wrong but not able to do anything about it. Or perhaps not willing. And that is all over.

There has been no returning to anything.

There are so many verses that seem to illustrate an absurd state, and are clearly meant as intimidation to keep people in line.

[Leo]

I think our "wicked ways" must consist of not enduring weekly indoctrination sessions or paying our weekly protection money. I personally don't know anyone who was, either pre-Christian or post-Christian, a robber, murderer, or Pagan priest.

Not even Mike Warranke? Wait. evan that pre-Christian story was found out to be made up ...

[Leo]

We heard about Artheleen Rippy, the ex-wife of a preacher who found a secretary and left Christianity. That was one realylygauche story laid out as an example for the rest of us slaves. Complete with her having walked into his apartment and having found he'd hung himself. I wonder if a later occurrence of the tale will include him falling open and his bowels bursting out.

Actually, that's kind of mean. The poor chick really did suffer. I saw her in a church, don't remember a thing about her message except that the word secular humanist kept coming up, apparently his infidelity was due to humanism? She was clearly traumatized by the experience, who wouldn't be? But, maybe someday someone will introduce her to Bertrand Russell and David Hume, for a couple of very moral honorable humanists.

But the heart strings pulling was obvious. Not by her. She was a older woman used as a prop, in my opinion. Fift

een years later, during my own deconversion, I'm sometimes besought with the irrational fear that I've done the same thing to my wife as having had an affair, by leaving Christianity. Replete with the Judasian imagery of a corpse hanging for her to find. No, that corpse is never mine, I am not considering such things.

But the intent is obviously clear. And that poor Rippy chick was clearly used. Someone obviously found her, told her to spill her guts to the churches, and so on. It's as though they 'd picked her up by her feet, held her upside down, and shook her a few times to shake out everything that was loose in there.

I admit, i know nothing else about her. But if I was less stalwart, younger, and in different circumstances, that garish imagery would have kept me in the fold.

The whole event I'd forgotten for near 15 years: lost in the endless sea of magic shows you see in churches. Until my deconversion, and the images, and finally putting 2 and 2 together to remember who that was.

[TrueFreedom]

I might be a bit of an exception, since my deconversion coincided with a mid-life crisis.  The changes came after losing my faith, rather than serving to motivate some type of rebellion.  I'm not sure how much I should share about that, but I'm getting better.

[◊ crazyguy123 ◊]

Well, since I deconverted, I've committed thought crimes hundreds of times without feeling guilty about it. I guess, according to what the Bible states is "evil" I have definitely become a very evil person.

[bfuddled]

Good question!

 

Like mymistake, my life looks almost exactly the same. I haven't eaten any babies or killed any defenseless people (yet), and no calamities have befallen me to date. I'm slowly adjusting beliefs/views, but so far I haven't made any radical shifts.

 

On second thought, we have been battling a pretty nasty influx of earwigs in our basement lately.. maybe it's a plague from God designed to punish my apostasy?! If I repent will he get rid of the nasty buggers? I despise earwigs.

[Roz]

Well let's see:

 

From Romans 1:

 

21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 

---uh oh Shaggy, apostates apparently knew god, but didn't glorify him.  My thinking apparently became futile.  The clarity that I now have in applying reason to every aspect of my life apparently made my thinking futile.  Check.

 

22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.

---According to the bible I apparently became a fool, and started to place god-like qualities into mortal man, birds, animals, and reptiles.     Whatever.  Check.

 

24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.

---While it is true that I no longer equate anything as sinful, I still haven't been to any public orgies nor have I worshiped created things.  Wait... does rooting for Team USA to win the world cup (gasp, a created thing!) count?  Yeshitwa, can you please clarify?

 

26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.

---Contrary to these verses, I have not magically turned gay.  I still prefer gals over guys.  Although, I do also like gals with gals...  

 

28 Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done. 29 They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30 slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 

---I apparently have a depraved mind and can't think of what ought not to be done.  I envy, I murder, I'm deceitful.  Hmmm.  Well, part of what I do for work relies on finding out the truth.  I haven't murdered anyone yet.  It's true that I envy, but then again doesn't everyone envy at some level?  It's what drives out capitalist system.

---Hmmm I also don't hate my parents now.  I love them as much as I did before I turned apostate.

 

31 they have no understanding, no fidelity, no love, no mercy. 32 Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.

---I still possess understanding, I'm as loyal to the ones precious to me, I still love, and I'm still merciful (although to be honest I don't have an ounce of mercy for the lion's den christians.)

[TheRedneckProfessor]

I was told I would never find peace or happiness outside of the will of gawd.  Precisely the opposite is true, in my experience anyway.

[sdelsolray]

Most Christian sects, among many other groups, promote and teach various flavors of xenophobia.  It is a primitive emotion which (unfortunately) has had evolutionary legs over time.  There is evidence that is is dissipating (or has the potential to dissipate) among homo sapien sapiens.

[Leo]

Great responses, guys.

Yes, ironically, the verses warning against what apostates are, tended to demonstrate for me also just how absurd the whole thing is. How backhanded, bullying, and ganglord-ish.

"Your new family loves you. Now don't leave, or we'll beat you up."

 

Love what was said about the peace. Peace = lack of cognitive dissonance plus a clear conscience ... both of which I have now. No more siding with terrorist deities. And no more shame for humanist tendencies.

[Guest end3]

For fellow ex-Christians:

Have you looked at the texts the Bible claims to say about us? How do they square with what is really going on in your life? They talk about returning to wicked ways. Have you done any returning at all? What wicked ways? They talk about our state being worse than if we had not tasted at all. Does that square with you?

 

To Christians:

Do you see a bunch of reprobates on this site? How does what you see here square with the verses in Peter and the other epistles talking about us apostates? If you have read any of our personal accounts, how does that square with what you read in your bible?

 

One more thing to fellow exChristians:

Did you ever hear testimony of exChristians dying, falling into disaster, or something similar?

 

I'll put my thoughts as an ex in my next post.I do h

ope to hear some thoughtful answers from Christians on this, too.

I see people here that for various reasons are trying to sell themselves on their decisions. My feeling is there is a lack of translation between what the Bible says and how we perceive it with our language. Just my opinion. Many good people here.

[florduh]

I see people here that for various reasons are trying to sell themselves on their decisions.

 

That is so ironic coming from a Christian apologist.

[Guest end3]

 

I see people here that for various reasons are trying to sell themselves on their decisions.

That is so ironic coming from a Christian apologist.

 

I'm not trying to sell myself on my belief as I'm sure some here are not. But my opinion is that many are.

[Guest end3]

For fellow ex-Christians:

Have you looked at the texts the Bible claims to say about us? How do they square with what is really going on in your life? They talk about returning to wicked ways. Have you done any returning at all? What wicked ways? They talk about our state being worse than if we had not tasted at all. Does that square with you?

 

To Christians:

Do you see a bunch of reprobates on this site? How does what you see here square with the verses in Peter and the other epistles talking about us apostates? If you have read any of our personal accounts, how does that square with what you read in your bible?

 

One more thing to fellow exChristians:

Did you ever hear testimony of exChristians dying, falling into disaster, or something similar?

 

I'll put my thoughts as an ex in my next post.I do h

ope to hear some thoughtful answers from Christians on this, too.

Sorry, will try to be more specific to your request of how it squares with the Bible....my first comment was just off the cuff from personal experience here. Thanks,

 

Edit: Looks like many verses.....pretty scary ones... any ones specifically?

[Ravenstar]

The way I live has much more to do with my age than it ever did with religion. The only apostasy I see in myself is that I am no longer able to believe in the unbelievable.

 

I made more 'mistakes' when younger… questionable choices I guess  LOL .  I'm probably more 'moral' now, in the christian sense, but that's because I'm wiser and less apt to take stupid risks or crave experiences I haven't had. However… I no longer feel guilty when I do choose to do anything because I accept the consequences before I act.

 

From what I remember it is better to have never believed than to have been a believer and then not… but that's fear-mongering and I will have none of it!  

[mymistake]

 

 

I see people here that for various reasons are trying to sell themselves on their decisions.

That is so ironic coming from a Christian apologist.

 

I'm not trying to sell myself on my belief as I'm sure some here are not. But my opinion is that many are.

 

 

 

Perhaps your opinion is wrong.

[Leo]

 

For fellow ex-Christians:

Have you looked at the texts the Bible claims to say about us? How do they square with what is really going on in your life? They talk about returning to wicked ways. Have you done any returning at all? What wicked ways? They talk about our state being worse than if we had not tasted at all. Does that square with you?

 

To Christians:

Do you see a bunch of reprobates on this site? How does what you see here square with the verses in Peter and the other epistles talking about us apostates? If you have read any of our personal accounts, how does that square with what you read in your bible?

 

One more thing to fellow exChristians:

Did you ever hear testimony of exChristians dying, falling into disaster, or something similar?

 

I'll put my thoughts as an ex in my next post.I do h

ope to hear some thoughtful answers from Christians on this, too.

I see people here that for various reasons are trying to sell themselves on their decisions. My feeling is there is a lack of translation between what the Bible says and how we perceive it with our language. Just my opinion. Many good people here.

 

I think what's happening is that we are taking a look at what's actually going on, as opposed to what Scripture says would be going on.

I don't know about selling ourselves on anything, but I personally would have expected certain things to be true, if Scripture was correct about apostates. I hold as tightly as ever to the three virtues of love, honor and fidelity. More openly so, now that I am not a Christian.

This is a far cry from a dog returning to its vomit. Or the story of Artheleen Rippy. And I to this day believe what she claimed. She appeared to me to be a very distressed human being, and no wonder. But not all deconverts do so, as Dinesh D'Souza claims, so that we might be unfaithful.

In fact, Christians talk mainly about sexual and relationship fidelity but part of fidelity runs far deeper.

The problem is, the verses used to talk about apostates create an entirely different picture of us than what really happens. I would venture to guess that in a higher-profile case like Arthelene Rippy's husband, he was a semi-famous preacher, apparently. Perhaps an alpha male, I don't know. But had an affair with a secretary or someone, the details elude me. Betrayal and domestic treachery like this is very corosive. I have personally never seen a relationship survive it, though I know the Christians used to try to convince me such things were possible. He certainly was not embodying any kind of secular humanist tendencies. Only the tendencies of an executive who couldn't keep it in his pants.

The subsequent suicide? Who knows? Men on Wall Street after the 1929 crash jumped out of windows. He'd presumably lost a lot. I have not done a whole lot of research to verify her story. I suspect county records from down there might be open by now, could prove whether or not any of that actually happened. A coroner's report would be public record.

But even that rather ghoulish incident doesn't square with Romans 1. He didn't turn gay, he went with a female secretary.

In my own case, as I said, the freedom was from cognitive dissonance. Even as a Christian, my thought processes have tended toward the rationally objective in the past ten years or so. And there would be no rational basis to somehow, demonstrably, alter my behavior and become less moral.

I understand that to the Christian, where personal experience and Scripture meet, Scripture wins out. At least in theory. But if the Ex-Christian does rational analysis on themselves regarding passages about apostates, I imagine it's one more nail in the coffin against Scripture's reliability at all.

We should all be quite different people, based on what it says. Sure, you have seen some very emotional responses on this site, from people struggling with very difficult issues. But I think you find some very together, rational people here.

Naturally you, as a Christian couldn't cross-check us individually, know our character in daily life, or anything else of that nature for fact finding.

However, most of us have had to come out to family and friends. If the Scriptures were right, our family and friends who are Christians would have seen some depraved activity, experienced betrayal, and a whole host of other things you find in Scripture about apostates. In short, we would never come out: we would be out and noticed, because there would be a pattern match that even a 1980s-style piece of software could detect.

Returning briefly to the case of Artheleen Rippy, her husband was outed by an affair he was having. At that point, he apparently confessed himself a nonChristian. Of course, some of it is fuzzy to me, it's been fifteen years. Most of what remains are the ghoulish images of a hanging man and a traumatized woman being allowed inside to find him there.

Even those images don't describe what should be us, according to Scripture. We go on a lot on this site, as to how best to help family, whether or not to out ourselves to aging parents who would not benefit from this, and much more. Many of us are humanists, yes. But the Christians, and their text, are the ones misguided about us.

I wonder if that is part of what could be so troubling to some about us. It might be easier for some of them if, after deconversion, we all abandoned human kindness, shucked our personal honor, sabotaged relationships, and any number of other things. But remaining as we

are, in many ways as we were, we are perhaps a testament to the errant nature of their texts.

Feel free to point out where you believe I'm wrong here.

[amateur]

I rate "Very Dull" on the Apostate's Evil in Thought, Word, and Deed Scale^TM.

 

When I was a xian, I rated "Very Dull" on the Xian's Evil in Thought, Word and Deed Scale^TM.

 

I may have to rename myself "sub-amateur."

[zuker12]

I don't know, but currently I'm depressed. Maybe I've become worse in that way? Maybe I am given in to my bad side and thusly I am depressed? Or does it say anything about being depressed?

[Leo]

I don't know, but currently I'm depressed. Maybe I've become worse in that way? Maybe I am given in to my bad side and thusly I am depressed? Or does it say anything about being depressed?

I don't think it does.

However, depression is a pretty common occurrence through the deconversion process. Through any huge, life-altering process in humans.

If it starts affecting your life, your work, your ability to sleep, you may want to get it checked out. If you're a deconverting Christian you might have some baggage about mental health but try and tell yourself that isn't relevant anymore.

I took your post seriously, outside this discussion, because depression is very real and a lot of people suffer, to varying degrees with it.

I think all of us deconverts are also prone to it, because we've had to do so much self-examination and examination of our beliefs as a part of deconverting and deprogramming. I think it's normal for us.

But, don't take that as me minimizing yours: if it's really bothering you, see someone about it.

[amateur]

 

I don't know, but currently I'm depressed. Maybe I've become worse in that way? Maybe I am given in to my bad side and thusly I am depressed? Or does it say anything about being depressed?

I don't think it does.

However, depression is a pretty common occurrence through the deconversion process. Through any huge, life-altering process in humans.

If it starts affecting your life, your work, your ability to sleep, you may want to get it checked out. If you're a deconverting Christian you might have some baggage about mental health but try and tell yourself that isn't relevant anymore.

I took your post seriously, outside this discussion, because depression is very real and a lot of people suffer, to varying degrees with it.

I think all of us deconverts are also prone to it, because we've had to do so much self-examination and examination of our beliefs as a part of deconverting and deprogramming. I think it's normal for us.

But, don't take that as me minimizing yours: if it's really bothering you, see someone about it.

 

I'm seconding what Leo said.  Anyone here suffering from depression could be experiencing real depression with their brain chemicals firing wrong, or it could be from feeling a loss of what you had been used to when a xian.  But in either case, it is NOT related to apostasy or the devil or punishment from god.  The same if anybody here has suffered any tragedy or loss since losing their faith.  It's not a punishment from god, it's just the way life goes with its ups and downs.  I also second what Leo said about seeking help if you are having a real problem dealing with your mood.  Please be good to yourself and take care of yourself, and that goes for anybody here.

[Neverlandrut]

For a long time, my understanding was that apostasy was the only way to "lose your salvation." It is essentially willfully giving up your salvation. In my doubts and questioning as a Christian, I came to see that the doctrine of hell, as taught today by most, is not well supported by the bible and even contradicts certain biblical concepts (god's never ending love, punishment for correction). This made me question what was actually meant by "salvation." Eventually, of course, I quit ignoring all the biblical contradictions and was left with no other conclusion other than the the bible is not an inerrant book, and thus not the word of an all mighty god.