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Kids, Husband & Family - Help :(


Murkywater

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Murkywater, I was curious if communion bothers you. I assume you must take communion otherwise others will wonder what's wrong.

 

I know that is a problem for me when I've thought about going to church to please other family members. It's irrational for this to bother me, but it does.

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I truly to feel for you. I hope that you find a lot of encouragement here at this site. There are a lot of people that are in your exact situation, myself included. Reading through your post, was almost like going back and reading my own posts. I have 2 kids, a devout Christian wife. I was raised in a Christian family and went to Christian schools my whole life. Then around 30, my doubts became too strong to ignore. I picked up every apologetic or atheist book I could find. Podcasts. Radio shows. Everything. And, around 33 realized I'm an atheist. I hid my atheism for about three years. Exchristian and a few other fourms were my only connection to others that felt like I did. I finally did tell my wife and for about a year she wanted to divorce, for no other reason than me not sharing her faith. She eventually realized what she was destroying, and changed her mind (she tells me God talked to her). In two weeks we're celebrating our 10 year anniversary. And, our marriage couldn't be stronger.

 

My compromises were that the kids will go to church and Christian school. When we were married it was understood that we were raising our kids in a Christian home. Taking that away from her, in her eyes, would be the equivalent to saying I want the kids to go to Hell. She would resent me and view me as a monster. I only go to church for special occasions. My kids are still a little young, but when the questions do come up I will be honest that their mom and I don't believe the same things about the Bible and God. I feel that if they see that it's ok to have different beliefs, even in a marriage, they will begin to explore what they believe and why. I've also come to terms with the idea that my kids might never see things my way. I know my wife won't. I'm fine with that. I just want them to be happy. I told my wife that the only line I'll draw with religion is if I feel that there's a true danger to the kids. Such as not vaccinating or taking them to a doctor ... things like that. My son's very curious and I'm always talking to him about science. The other day, I was telling him how before our current sun existed there was another sun that exploded and made our sun and all the planets. He was so fascinated by that. I want to encourage his curiosity. That curiosity is what caused me to have a love for science.

 

My wife also wanted me to talk to her pastor. Previously, I would have said our pastor. Now, I don't consider myself a member of the church. He's only a few years older than me and personality wise we are a lot alike. I told him that I would discuss anything he wanted, but it had to be online. I created a closed Facebook group and sent invites to anyone I know that would be interested. There's about 20 in the group, although only about 5 of us actually discuss anything. The discussions have ranged from the Flood event to morality. We've been on for over a year. It was a good way for me to have these discussions with others that want to talk to me about this but get too emotional over these topics in person. Online you can sort your thoughts out a head of time, and people can't talk over each other. Even with that separation, the discussions have gotten a little heated from time to time. 

 

Like you, I developed anxiety and OCD tendencies. Through my insurance, I found a therapist to talk to. Twice a month was what I could afford, but it was helpful just talking to someone about it. I still have no people in my real life to talk to about this. All my friends are Christians. There's only one other atheist on the Facebook group, and I barely know him. I've tried finding a therapist from the Therapist Program that Recovering from Religion has. Unfortunately, they've never had anyone in my area, you might have better luck. I would suggest you look into it.  

 

I'm glad that you've found this site. It was very helpful for me. You might consider blogging on here where you're free to be open and honest. This site was my only outlet for a long time. In my marriage, we've come to realize that there are just some topics that we can't discuss. Although, when certain topics are too hard to talk about in person we've learned to email each other to get our thoughts in order and hopefully have a beneficial discussion. Maybe that could be useful to you as well.

 

At the very least, I'd like to extend a virtual hug, and let you know that we're here for you.      

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This hits the nail on the head. I have every possible emotional motivation NOT to question and pretend all is well. This isolates me from everyone I know and love and has the potential to hurt them as well. A huge part of me wants to go back for obvious emotional reasons, but EVEN IF I COULD, I would end up having the exact same questions and going through this same painful process.

 

 

 

A lot of relationship advice says that both persons should be respectful and neither should be pushy or try to convert the other. Yet, this ends up equating to silence on my part and pretending everything is all right. That works out much better for my husband than it does for me. Unfortunately, our present circumstances seem to require this to live our day-to-day life in any sort of practical way. I feel like the conversation needs to continue, but these conversations end up being EXTREMELY painful for both of us.  I really have no idea if it's better to avoid these potential landmines or not. 

 

I've read all of the convincing arguments a million times over, so what I really want & need right now is to make this relationship work for my kids and my marriage.  He has just as many emotional reasons as I do -- along with more practical ones like his job -- not to change his mind. And I have been there, so I really do understand his position. I imagine for people or those with spouses who are more "casually" religious, this hurdle is not as large. 

 

I think a counselor could help us navigate these waters, but I'm really not sure where to start to find a secular/non-biased therapist. What I would really love is someone who is experienced in this exact issue. 

 

 

Hello again. I can speak to this as someone who has both lived through what you are going through, has successfully completed therapy with my (still believing) wife, and is also a therapist. It sounds like you feel frustrated, like you need to stay silent in order to maintain peace, or speak up and risk destabilizing the marriage. I'll talk about what I have seen work for us and why I think it has been successful. I should mention that my wife is VERY devout, as was I before I started seriously questioning things. We are in Year 2 of my deconversion, and we are probably more solid today than we ever have been. We accept each other completely, though we don't agree with everything the other person believes.

 

I guess some clarifications are in order. The idea that you should not try to convert your spouse does not necessarily mean you cannot ever talk about science, logic, philosophy, etc. It means that when you discuss those things, you are not trying to win a debate. Debates are naturally adversarial, and can end up doing a lot of damage, particularly when  your relationship has already been strained more than it ever has been before. Maybe if the relationship were on more solid footing, you two could debate an issue without questioning the security of the relationship, but now is not that time. The issue then becomes, how do we talk about these things without starting a debate for now. First, we had to ask ourselves honestly what we were trying to accomplish when we brought these things up. I know that at first for me, if I was really honest, part of my motivation was hoping that she would "see the light." I realized that I hated it when she would subtly try to interject some religious argument, and I needed to stop doing that to her. If she was ever ready to start asking the questions I was asking, it would need to come from her.

 

So we did some meta-communicating. That is, we talked about the conversations we were having; the tone and the feelings that the conversations brought up, not the content per se. We acknowledged that there was a part of us that hoped the other person would change in these conversations, and also acknowledged that this heightened the other's defenses. We both agreed that neither of us liked the idea of having certain topics off the table (though some couples can do this rather successfully), but neither did we like feeling like we were being proselytized. So we agreed that we could talk about anything, so long as it was borne out of a sense of legitimately wanting to share something with the other. We also both agreed to treat the other person with respect and interest, even if we did not necessarily agree with their views. So if she wants to talk about something the pastor said, I won't take it as her trying to convert me, she just really thought it was interesting. If I want to talk about the latest findings on Neanderthals or Denosovians, she knows it is not meant to convince her to leave religion, but just something I'm excited by. Sometimes all it takes is acknowledging that the other person finds the topic interesting, and then the other person doesn't feel the need to keep talking about it. Sometimes there is a follow-up question or two, but it's just to make sure that we genuinely understand the other person's position, not to start a debate.

 

We found the book Hold Me Tight by Susan Johnson to be very helpful for us to heal the damage we had done and keep the focus on the relationship as opposed to the particular beliefs. The book is not specifically about different belief systems, but just about how couples achieve emotional intimacy. There are conversations and exercises that the book asks you to do before moving on, and these are often quite challenging. But worth it. We also sought for and found a therapist certified in the Emotionally Focused Therapy approach (you can also do a broader search for people trained in EFT though not certified by filtering your search at the Psychology Today website). As a therapist myself, I knew that this is an approach that is extremely well backed by research (this is also the approach that Susan Johnson takes). Our therapist was great and never tried to get either one of us to change our beliefs, but focused on helping each of us understand where the other was at emotionally and what we could do differently to get past the hurt.

 

I believe someone has already suggested the Secular Therapist Project This is a great resource, but any ethical therapist who happens to be a Christian won't impose their views on you. If they do, report them to their licensing board. So don't be discouraged if you don't see a secular therapist in your area right away.

 

So if my experience has taught me anything, it's to NOT be silent, but speak up about the right things. Speak up about your own emotional experience, and let him speak about his. Keep in mind too that he is grieving the loss of the image of the relationship he had, and maybe he will just need some time before he can fully engage you on these things.

 

I highly recommend that you engage with a local community of non-believers. This could be a local atheist group, a Freedom From Religion group, some people even find Unitarian churches to be useful for this purpose, a science discussion group, etc. Many people who go will understand what you are going through and will usually respect your need for confidentiality, especially considering your husband's position. The point is, if you need to talk to someone about this stuff, your husband might not always be the best person for that, especially if he's grieving right now. And that's OK. But you still have a legitimate need to get this need met. Search meetup.com if you are not sure where to start and search for the types of groups I mentioned and see what pops up. I visited mine whenever my schedule allowed (not that often), so I don't get to go to a lot of the events, but I did meet some interesting people there and we started hanging out outside of the group. We have even hung out with my wife and no one burst into flame!

 

Anyway, if you have more specific questions, I am happy to answer as best as I can.

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I truly to feel for you. I hope that you find a lot of encouragement here at this site. There are a lot of people that are in your exact situation, myself included. Reading through your post, was almost like going back and reading my own posts. I have 2 kids, a devout Christian wife. I was raised in a Christian family and went to Christian schools my whole life. Then around 30, my doubts became too strong to ignore. I picked up every apologetic or atheist book I could find. Podcasts. Radio shows. Everything. And, around 33 realized I'm an atheist. I hid my atheism for about three years. Exchristian and a few other fourms were my only connection to others that felt like I did. I finally did tell my wife and for about a year she wanted to divorce, for no other reason than me not sharing her faith. She eventually realized what she was destroying, and changed her mind (she tells me God talked to her). In two weeks we're celebrating our 10 year anniversary. And, our marriage couldn't be stronger.

 

My compromises were that the kids will go to church and Christian school. When we were married it was understood that we were raising our kids in a Christian home. Taking that away from her, in her eyes, would be the equivalent to saying I want the kids to go to Hell. She would resent me and view me as a monster. I only go to church for special occasions. My kids are still a little young, but when the questions do come up I will be honest that their mom and I don't believe the same things about the Bible and God. I feel that if they see that it's ok to have different beliefs, even in a marriage, they will begin to explore what they believe and why. I've also come to terms with the idea that my kids might never see things my way. I know my wife won't. I'm fine with that. I just want them to be happy. I told my wife that the only line I'll draw with religion is if I feel that there's a true danger to the kids. Such as not vaccinating or taking them to a doctor ... things like that. My son's very curious and I'm always talking to him about science. The other day, I was telling him how before our current sun existed there was another sun that exploded and made our sun and all the planets. He was so fascinated by that. I want to encourage his curiosity. That curiosity is what caused me to have a love for science.

 

My wife also wanted me to talk to her pastor. Previously, I would have said our pastor. Now, I don't consider myself a member of the church. He's only a few years older than me and personality wise we are a lot alike. I told him that I would discuss anything he wanted, but it had to be online. I created a closed Facebook group and sent invites to anyone I know that would be interested. There's about 20 in the group, although only about 5 of us actually discuss anything. The discussions have ranged from the Flood event to morality. We've been on for over a year. It was a good way for me to have these discussions with others that want to talk to me about this but get too emotional over these topics in person. Online you can sort your thoughts out a head of time, and people can't talk over each other. Even with that separation, the discussions have gotten a little heated from time to time. 

 

Like you, I developed anxiety and OCD tendencies. Through my insurance, I found a therapist to talk to. Twice a month was what I could afford, but it was helpful just talking to someone about it. I still have no people in my real life to talk to about this. All my friends are Christians. There's only one other atheist on the Facebook group, and I barely know him. I've tried finding a therapist from the Therapist Program that Recovering from Religion has. Unfortunately, they've never had anyone in my area, you might have better luck. I would suggest you look into it.  

 

I'm glad that you've found this site. It was very helpful for me. You might consider blogging on here where you're free to be open and honest. This site was my only outlet for a long time. In my marriage, we've come to realize that there are just some topics that we can't discuss. Although, when certain topics are too hard to talk about in person we've learned to email each other to get our thoughts in order and hopefully have a beneficial discussion. Maybe that could be useful to you as well.

 

At the very least, I'd like to extend a virtual hug, and let you know that we're here for you.      

 

Are you me? Our deconversion stories are eerily similar. One quick thing I thought I would add was in regards to the kids. Thankfully mine don't go to a Christian school, but I also agreed to let the kids go to church. But I also made it clear that I would not hide my beliefs from them and I would answer any questions they had for me. Also, my wife agreed that if they decide that they don't believe in God at any point, she won't make them go to church. This was a delicate issue to say the least, and took us nearly a year and a half to get to this point. We had to learn how to talk to each other about our different beliefs before we could get anywhere with this one.

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Hello again. I can speak to this as someone who has both lived through what you are going through, has successfully completed therapy with my (still believing) wife, and is also a therapist. It sounds like you feel frustrated, like you need to stay silent in order to maintain peace, or speak up and risk destabilizing the marriage. I'll talk about what I have seen work for us and why I think it has been successful. I should mention that my wife is VERY devout, as was I before I started seriously questioning things. We are in Year 2 of my deconversion, and we are probably more solid today than we ever have been. We accept each other completely, though we don't agree with everything the other person believes.

 

I guess some clarifications are in order. The idea that you should not try to convert your spouse does not necessarily mean you cannot ever talk about science, logic, philosophy, etc. It means that when you discuss those things, you are not trying to win a debate. Debates are naturally adversarial, and can end up doing a lot of damage, particularly when  your relationship has already been strained more than it ever has been before. Maybe if the relationship were on more solid footing, you two could debate an issue without questioning the security of the relationship, but now is not that time. The issue then becomes, how do we talk about these things without starting a debate for now. First, we had to ask ourselves honestly what we were trying to accomplish when we brought these things up. I know that at first for me, if I was really honest, part of my motivation was hoping that she would "see the light." I realized that I hated it when she would subtly try to interject some religious argument, and I needed to stop doing that to her. If she was ever ready to start asking the questions I was asking, it would need to come from her.

 

So we did some meta-communicating. That is, we talked about the conversations we were having; the tone and the feelings that the conversations brought up, not the content per se. We acknowledged that there was a part of us that hoped the other person would change in these conversations, and also acknowledged that this heightened the other's defenses. We both agreed that neither of us liked the idea of having certain topics off the table (though some couples can do this rather successfully), but neither did we like feeling like we were being proselytized. So we agreed that we could talk about anything, so long as it was borne out of a sense of legitimately wanting to share something with the other. We also both agreed to treat the other person with respect and interest, even if we did not necessarily agree with their views. So if she wants to talk about something the pastor said, I won't take it as her trying to convert me, she just really thought it was interesting. If I want to talk about the latest findings on Neanderthals or Denosovians, she knows it is not meant to convince her to leave religion, but just something I'm excited by. Sometimes all it takes is acknowledging that the other person finds the topic interesting, and then the other person doesn't feel the need to keep talking about it. Sometimes there is a follow-up question or two, but it's just to make sure that we genuinely understand the other person's position, not to start a debate.

 

We found the book Hold Me Tight by Susan Johnson to be very helpful for us to heal the damage we had done and keep the focus on the relationship as opposed to the particular beliefs. The book is not specifically about different belief systems, but just about how couples achieve emotional intimacy. There are conversations and exercises that the book asks you to do before moving on, and these are often quite challenging. But worth it. We also sought for and found a therapist certified in the Emotionally Focused Therapy approach (you can also do a broader search for people trained in EFT though not certified by filtering your search at the Psychology Today website). As a therapist myself, I knew that this is an approach that is extremely well backed by research (this is also the approach that Susan Johnson takes). Our therapist was great and never tried to get either one of us to change our beliefs, but focused on helping each of us understand where the other was at emotionally and what we could do differently to get past the hurt.

 

I believe someone has already suggested the Secular Therapist Project This is a great resource, but any ethical therapist who happens to be a Christian won't impose their views on you. If they do, report them to their licensing board. So don't be discouraged if you don't see a secular therapist in your area right away.

 

So if my experience has taught me anything, it's to NOT be silent, but speak up about the right things. Speak up about your own emotional experience, and let him speak about his. Keep in mind too that he is grieving the loss of the image of the relationship he had, and maybe he will just need some time before he can fully engage you on these things.

 

I highly recommend that you engage with a local community of non-believers. This could be a local atheist group, a Freedom From Religion group, some people even find Unitarian churches to be useful for this purpose, a science discussion group, etc. Many people who go will understand what you are going through and will usually respect your need for confidentiality, especially considering your husband's position. The point is, if you need to talk to someone about this stuff, your husband might not always be the best person for that, especially if he's grieving right now. And that's OK. But you still have a legitimate need to get this need met. Search meetup.com if you are not sure where to start and search for the types of groups I mentioned and see what pops up. I visited mine whenever my schedule allowed (not that often), so I don't get to go to a lot of the events, but I did meet some interesting people there and we started hanging out outside of the group. We have even hung out with my wife and no one burst into flame!

 

Anyway, if you have more specific questions, I am happy to answer as best as I can.

 

 

This is monumentally helpful. I did start looking at the Secular Therapist Project, but also really appreciate your other recommendations. Thank you so much. 

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This is monumentally helpful. I did start looking at the Secular Therapist Project, but also really appreciate your other recommendations. Thank you so much. 

 

 

:)

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You must feel very torn between your family's feelings and how you personally feel about religion. sad.png

 

Your husband seems to have taken it very lovingly, which is graceful of him. But you both seem to acknowledge this new thing between the both of you that makes your relationship different than before. That acknowledgement is healthy, for ignoring it would be even worse.

 

I would second finding a neutral marriage therapist for both of you. This may help you to continue to grow in empathy for each other--something you definitely want. They can also facilitate communication about the pertinent issues of religion, perhaps reducing the pain of the conversation.

 

I know there's a book or two out there about couples in interfaith marriages. Maybe you could both look into reading that?

 

I remember when my boyfriend and I were an interfaith couple. I remember wanting him to convert back to Christianity more than anything, but I also remember I didn't want to push him away by pestering him about it and he felt the same. We made sure to be open about our beliefs, but we often had to agree to disagree when talking about certain subjects. I saw him as more than an agnostic. I saw him as the man I love. When I think on it, we stayed together because we loved each other more than our religions. It took my own personal journey into atheism a year later before I realized that I had been duped by Christianity. Granted, we are younger and have no kids, so this situation is not nearly as complex and sensitive as your own. 

 

I like what Margee said best. Be the you that you've always been. Religion/lack of religion does not have to define you. Be as pleasant and humorous and nurturing as you were before the deconversion. Your personality has not changed. Grow in confidence with who you are. You don't have to give your kids atheist books per se, but instill in them the ability to be inquisitive and curious. And don't let this stop you from talking with your husband. 

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Are you me? Our deconversion stories are eerily similar. One quick thing I thought I would add was in regards to the kids. Thankfully mine don't go to a Christian school, but I also agreed to let the kids go to church. But I also made it clear that I would not hide my beliefs from them and I would answer any questions they had for me. Also, my wife agreed that if they decide that they don't believe in God at any point, she won't make them go to church. This was a delicate issue to say the least, and took us nearly a year and a half to get to this point. We had to learn how to talk to each other about our different beliefs before we could get anywhere with this one.

 

TX, huh. I have family in TX that I've never meet. Maybe we're related :D

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My compromises were that the kids will go to church and Christian school. When we were married it was understood that we were raising our kids in a Christian home. Taking that away from her, in her eyes, would be the equivalent to saying I want the kids to go to Hell. 

 

Thanks for sharing your experience, illusion. This was also helpful as your thoughts and story mirror much of mine. I'm interested to hear how things have gone for you having your kids in Christian school. (Does it happen to be YEC curriculum...?)

 

My husband asked me why it's hard for me to go along with it or why I can't just accept his beliefs and that he wants to teach them to our kids. (i.e., what harm is it to me if they believe in Creationism?) 

 

I told him it's difficult for me for a few reasons. I first stress that's there's a lot of good about our church, faith, community, religion, but I also see a few things that are detrimental from my point of view:

 

  • The psychological affects of belief in hell

    - Sheer terror for self, others (including persons one knows personally or humanity for all of history), fear for unbelieving parent or family member

    - Self-loathing and self-destructive thoughts, guilt, mental anguish that especially plague those predisposed to anxiety or mental illness

  • Discouraging questioning and exploration of the universe we live in; promoting fear of uncertainty

    - Misrepresenting science and praising scientific methods that require from a literal-historical reading of the Bible

On this point, he says that just because we don't like the idea of something, doesn't mean it's not real. It's not a contradiction to God's love because God is also just. He also loves us enough to give us free will and didn't make robots. He at least conceded to my point that maybe we would be better off robots (progress...?) Again, I know this sounds too much like we are debating and trying to win the other over, but the conversation really stems from my desire to do what's best for my kids.

 

I know that my husband isn't asking or concerned with all of the same questions I have had, but it sucks feeling like I'm on this journey alone and I so wish he was on it with me. I am totally able to see how selfish that is and how he feels the same way from the other side. But I just can't keep from bringing up some of my thoughts! I want to keep talking through things because as long as we are talking, then I feel like this isn't just me resigning to something. We are exploring the possibilities together and there is a chance he may come to understand or empathize with a sliver of my viewpoints. 

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Murkywater, I was curious if communion bothers you. I assume you must take communion otherwise others will wonder what's wrong.

 

I know that is a problem for me when I've thought about going to church to please other family members. It's irrational for this to bother me, but it does.

Well, from my religious background, I still see how the church views it as a symbolic/significant/meaningful tradition...focusing on self-sacrifice, humility, humanistic values, if you will. If I didn't go, yes, there would be annoying questions. 

 

Ironically, I have less issue with it than I might have before. Back in the day I had this OCD issue of thinking blaspheming thoughts during communion which became like the "don't think of a pink elephant" and all you can think of is a pink elephant kind of thing. (It's interesting how mental issues latch on so deeply to religion.) I always knew this was just a psychological phenomenon, but now that's definitely not an issue. 

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Thanks for sharing your experience, illusion. This was also helpful as your thoughts and story mirror much of mine. I'm interested to hear how things have gone for you having your kids in Christian school. (Does it happen to be YEC curriculum...?)

 

My husband asked me why it's hard for me to go along with it or why I can't just accept his beliefs and that he wants to teach them to our kids. (i.e., what harm is it to me if they believe in Creationism?) 

 

I told him it's difficult for me for a few reasons. I first stress that's there's a lot of good about our church, faith, community, religion, but I also see a few things that are detrimental from my point of view:

 

  • The psychological affects of belief in hell

    - Sheer terror for self, others (including persons one knows personally or humanity for all of history), fear for unbelieving parent or family member

    - Self-loathing and self-destructive thoughts, guilt, mental anguish that especially plague those predisposed to anxiety or mental illness

  • Discouraging questioning and exploration of the universe we live in; promoting fear of uncertainty

    - Misrepresenting science and praising scientific methods that require from a literal-historical reading of the Bible

On this point, he says that just because we don't like the idea of something, doesn't mean it's not real. It's not a contradiction to God's love because God is also just. He also loves us enough to give us free will and didn't make robots. He at least conceded to my point that maybe we would be better off robots (progress...?) Again, I know this sounds too much like we are debating and trying to win the other over, but the conversation really stems from my desire to do what's best for my kids.

 

I know that my husband isn't asking or concerned with all of the same questions I have had, but it sucks feeling like I'm on this journey alone and I so wish he was on it with me. I am totally able to see how selfish that is and how he feels the same way from the other side. But I just can't keep from bringing up some of my thoughts! I want to keep talking through things because as long as we are talking, then I feel like this isn't just me resigning to something. We are exploring the possibilities together and there is a chance he may come to understand or empathize with a sliver of my viewpoints. 

 

I really do empathize with your situation, MW. I, also, applaud your husband on the point that he will, at least, talk to you about these issues. My wife will not talk about this stuff with me, and that makes me somewhat frustrated. There is rich irony in your statement, "he says that just because we don't like the idea of something, doesn't mean it's not real." It was that idea that allowed me to explore the atheist arguments in the first place. I kept asking why is it that we believe what we believe?

 

To answer your question, no my kids don't go to a young earth creationist school. I would have a problem with it if it was different. I emailed them when my son entered the first grade to ask about this issue. The response I got was that they avoid, (they worded it differently), the entire issue and allow each family to handle it as they see fit. I sent the email because they were talking about dinosaurs and I wanted to know if they were discussing the millions of years dinosaurs existed. I believe they didn't discuss timelines. Since they weren't talking about that aspect of it, I made it more of an issue to talk about science at home. I've never bought into the young earth arguments even when I was a die hard Christian. My wife is simply bored by science and never even bothers to talk about it. So, that basically gives me free reign to talk about all the science and history with my kids that I want. Neither the school nor my wife will contradict me. This might be an issue that you and your husband will have to find some common ground on. If it means enough to you, do not to compromise. You're already making many compromises. There are SO many reasons why it's not rational to accept a young Earth model. It would be in your husband's best interest to read a few books on the topic. At the very least, he should come to terms with the idea that your kids will see that you and your husband have different beliefs in these areas. Try to cultivate an environment where they feel free to explore what they believe without disapproval from one parent or the other.

 

If I could recommend a book, you should look into Dale McGowan's "Parenting Beyond Belief". It's very helpful and has some ideas that I think could benefit you. In mid August he has a book coming out that has more to do with situations like our's called, "In Faith and In Doubt: How Religious Believers and Nonbelievers Can Create Strong Marriages and Loving Families ..." I plan on picking it up when it comes out. 

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On this point, he says that just because we don't like the idea of something, doesn't mean it's not real. 

 

Ironically, I'm pretty sure that most of us would LOVE the idea of a truly loving god. This sort of sounds like a backhanded way of saying that you're just mad at god or just want to sin more or something.

 

 

I know that my husband isn't asking or concerned with all of the same questions I have had, but it sucks feeling like I'm on this journey alone and I so wish he was on it with me.

 

I know. It really does suck. This is why you really need to invest in some other friends who have had similar questions. While it's true that he is facing a lot of change too, the fact is that he still has the church as a source of support. He can open up about this in a small group or with an elder or whatever. I'm guessing that for you, the VAST majority of your friends and family are Christian. You will continue to feel alone until you can interact with people who think like you. Ex-C is a great place to start, but you will need to be able to hang out with people in real-life settings too. I know things are sensitive with your husband's job, but I hope you consider this. From my own personal experience, just having ONE person in my face-to-face world that I can meet up with, vent, hang out, etc. has made a world of difference.

 

I understand your desire to do the best thing for your kids. My advice here is to let go of worrying about the specifics of WHAT they think, and start making efforts to teach them HOW to think. Teach them about the scientific method and why it's important. Teach them about logic and personal integrity. Teach them to be ethical and treat others with respect, even when they disagree with their views. When they start to prize these things, they will eventually have to examine their own beliefs and see how they match up with their values. And while this is no guarantee that they will share your beliefs exactly, at the very least you will have raised some excellent human beings who will probably be a lot more tolerant of others. Maybe they will follow a more liberal form of Christianity, or maybe they will shed their faith altogether, but that won't change the fact that they will be good people.

 

Here is a talk by Dale McGowan where he talks more in depth about this. He is a fantastic speaker and author, so Google more of his stuff. Anyway, his wife was Christian when their kids were young, so he has some excellent insights here.

 

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On this point, he says that just because we don't like the idea of something, doesn't mean it's not real. 

 

Ironically, I'm pretty sure that most of us would LOVE the idea of a truly loving god. This sort of sounds like a backhanded way of saying that you're just mad at god or just want to sin more or something.

 

 

 

I know. It really does suck. This is why you really need to invest in some other friends who have had similar questions. While it's true that he is facing a lot of change too, the fact is that he still has the church as a source of support. He can open up about this in a small group or with an elder or whatever. I'm guessing that for you, the VAST majority of your friends and family are Christian. You will continue to feel alone until you can interact with people who think like you. Ex-C is a great place to start, but you will need to be able to hang out with people in real-life settings too. I know things are sensitive with your husband's job, but I hope you consider this. From my own personal experience, just having ONE person in my face-to-face world that I can meet up with, vent, hang out, etc. has made a world of difference.

 

 

 

Yep. Exactly right on your first point. 

 

Regarding a community, you are probably very right. The extremely difficult part is that my life largely revolves around my husband and kids, which revolves around this school. I do have a friend and a few colleagues I have opened up to about this, but I'm sure you are right that finding another community (perhaps one that can involve the kids in someway or maybe fellow parents???) might be helpful. I work full-time, so I already feel like I'm being stretched thin. I still want to be involved in my kids' school lives as well as that of my husband. 

 

But I just hate this so much. My mind is constantly raging war against itself because on the one hand, all of the questions and reasons religion is illogical are pounding in my brain. I keep having to revisit the arguments to reassure myself (this is the compusive response to the obsession to reduce my anxiety). Meanwhile, the emotional part of my brain is pounding and fighting back with sorrow and longing for my husband and family and our life (our wonderful school community and Christian family and friends). 
 
It doesn't help that we have siblings that just moved in-state and are now sending our niece (same age as my kids) to the school. Having the cousins at the same school (again a school and community that I love) is wonderful. But every time we are together, I can't stop dwelling on this. The school is also right in the middle of an extremely exciting building expansion under an amazing effort my husband. (Again, you have to understand that I still love this school and community.) 
 
It just feels like my brain is on fire and the rational and emotional parts of me are at war. This is pure torture if there ever was such a such thing. :(
 
I can't stand the idea that my husband thinks I will go to hell and that Christians are walking around society accepting the idea that tons of people they walk past are going to burn eternally. (Or I guess they just don't think about it or they just trust God.) 
 
While I am really not at all thrilled about the young earth ideas that are being pushed at my kids, I really appreciate what you said DrNo about not teaching them what to think, but how to think. That's really true. The hard part is now I feel like I need to break that cycle so they don't have to "escape" against all odds like I did. 
 
I wish I could give my husband articles on the discoveries and science, but there's no way I can get him to read everything (or much of anything) I have read without it seeming like I am trying to convince him. If only there were some ace-in-the-hole book, but I don't think one exists that a Creationist would actually give any real consideration. I mean, honestly I'm still in some shock personally. It's like growing up and then realizing you were adopted. Everything you thought was true was not. Then it makes me wonder what else I think is true that isn't. Maybe we are all not even really here!!! (I totally distinctly remember when that thought first occurred to me as a child, haha) But in the past, I just never really dwelled on Creationism vs Evolution, so it wasn't an issue...I just didn't take the time to explore the controversy and trusted childhood authorities who warned me about public discourse on evolution. 
 
But I am throwing around the idea of my husband and I sitting down and reading the Bible together cover to cover...perhaps that would stem good discussions? I mean people say it's the number one thing they read that causes them to question (when they truly read it). From his perspective, reading the Bible together should be a good thing, you know? I asked him about this and he said he would be willing to do it. I just don't know if that's going to be like blowing a detonator every time and I am only asking for trouble. 
 
I never have been very good at leaving well enough alone. But if I could just at the very least get my husband to back off of the literal interpretations (or concede the possibility of some symbolism)...
 
In any case, I thought this was interesting: Three Reasons a Creationist Will Never Accept Evolution: 
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There is no "hell" in the Old Testament. It was never a part of Judaism. There is no "judgement" after you're dead.  If "the historic Jesus" taught people that "hell" was real, and there was judgement after death, he was borrowing it from Greek mythology. Christians can't have it both ways (though they can pretend to). 

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I wish I could give my husband articles on the discoveries and science, but there's no way I can get him to read everything (or much of anything) I have read without it seeming like I am trying to convince him. If only there were some ace-in-the-hole book, but I don't think one exists that a Creationist would actually give any real consideration. I mean, honestly I'm still in some shock personally. It's like growing up and then realizing you were adopted. Everything you thought was true was not. Then it makes me wonder what else I think is true that isn't. Maybe we are all not even really here!!! (I totally distinctly remember when that thought first occurred to me as a child, haha) But in the past, I just never really dwelled on Creationism vs Evolution, so it wasn't an issue...I just didn't take the time to explore the controversy and trusted childhood authorities who warned me about public discourse on evolution. 

 

You're right. There's not a big chance that he's going to read something and see the error of his thinking. This is because the problem is not just logical; a huge part of this is emotional. His whole identity is wrapped up in this worldview. His career, his support system, his friends, his family, his beliefs about death, his politics--everything that's important to him! I know it was for you too, but the difference is that somewhere along the line you decided for yourself that it was more important to pursue truth than to maintain the status quo, even if that meant that you had to change previously cherished beliefs. Until he makes that shift in values too, he will take any ridiculous mental-gymnastics alternative that allows him to hold on to his beliefs and keep the life he's loved over the prospect of becoming an outcast and having to admit that there are big questions we don't have answers to.

 

But I am throwing around the idea of my husband and I sitting down and reading the Bible together cover to cover...perhaps that would stem good discussions? I mean people say it's the number one thing they read that causes them to question (when they truly read it). From his perspective, reading the Bible together should be a good thing, you know? I asked him about this and he said he would be willing to do it. I just don't know if that's going to be like blowing a detonator every time and I am only asking for trouble. 

 
I never have been very good at leaving well enough alone. But if I could just at the very least get my husband to back off of the literal interpretations (or concede the possibility of some symbolism)...

 

I REALLY don't think that trying to attack the Bible's credibility is going to help him or your relationship. Frankly, at this stage I really don't think you should even be attempting to try to talk your husband out of anything. It's still too raw for both of you. When the time is right, if you still want to have those conversations, I would suggest that you take the approach suggested by Peter Boghossian in his book A Manual For Creating Atheists. The gist of it is that you never directly attack specific beliefs. That is only going to create defensive reactions, and most people are not persuaded by facts anyway. Instead, focus on asking questions about their belief system. Questions along the lines of how we know what is true and not. Example: What conditions would need to exist to know that your beliefs were wrong? More often than not, people will not list any evidence or lack of evidence, but speak to a feeling in their hearts. At that point you can ask how they would be able to tell the difference between that feeling being indicative of reality versus a delusion, or you could ask about how the Muslim or the Wiccan who also experiences strong feelings that tell them that what they believe is true would ever be able to discover that their beliefs were wrong. All answers are just answered with more questions until they don't have an answer, and then you just let them think about it. It's a slow process, not a quick revelation.

 

Note that I am stressing here again that I really don't have any reason to think that your relationship is ready for this line of questioning yet, I'm just giving you some things to think about that might come in handy later. My wife and I are doing well right now and have been for several months now, but I don't even think the time is right yet for us. There needs to be a feeling that regardless of our different beliefs that we will ALWAYS love and fully accept each other where we are at first. Until you really think that the two of you are there, I would just let it lie for now. I know it sucks, but from what you have said I'm just not sure that he's there.

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It's pointless to sit down and read the Bible without understanding what you're reading. Unfortunately, you could spend the next 500 lifetimes poring through the requisite literature in the field.

 

You really have to approach it the way you would "The Odyssey." It's not history at all, it's pseudo-history with mythical elements. It sounds like your husband isn't going to stand for that perspective. 

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This is a very interesting thread. I'm intrigued by your husband's willingness to somewhat support your 'journey,' Murkywater, but he also challenges you, as well. Which is somewhat understandable, considering how we once felt as practicing Christians. If someone challenged my faith beliefs, or told me that they were thinking of abandoning it, I would try to defend the faith to them, in hopes of him/her 'seeing' the light. Your husband is how I once was.

 

That said, why are you tossing the idea around of reading the Bible together? You don't believe in it. This is your journey. Not his. That is hard to accept, maybe. For both of you. You want him to be on this path with you, and he'd like you to come back to the path you left. If it were me, I'd probably just simply say, this is how I feel now. If you can accept it, great. If not...we can work on that, together. But, I'm not going to church anymore. I'm not pretending anymore.

 

Marriage isn't a prison. It's not meant to hold you down, and prevent you from speaking your mind, and living authentically, as an individual. While you both married with the understanding that Christianity was important to you BOTH, you now have changed your stance. This happens. I think your husband has been very encouraging, and nurturing...and loving. But, why should we be surprised by this? Did he marry a religion? No, he married YOU, a unique person. I admire your husband standing by you, but really, he should as your husband. If a marriage or relationship crumbles away over one person changing his/her religious views, then the relationship was built on shifting sands to begin with. My opinion.

 

I understand your desire to please everyone, but I'm here to say, you simply can't. We can't please everyone. Because in the end, we lose ourselves. Not saying to not give a rip as to what your husband is also going through, but this doesn't need to be the end of the world. If you both want the marriage to last, then you both will need to find a way to live separately when it comes to your views, or be able to share them without judgement. That will take you both accepting that there will be a lack of enthusiasm on both of your parts for your worldviews. He will not see the world through your lens, and you no longer see it through his.

 

Your marriage will change in this regard, but you never know, it could grow stronger. But, be true to you. For only if you are true to you, can you be authentic as a wife and mother. You can't pretend to be a Christian to hold your marriage together, or to save face in public. This is tough, I know. And I'm sorry you're going through this. But, I would not read the Bible, and spend time entertaining Christianity if you truly don't believe in it, anymore. Your husband will either have to accept that, or not.

 

You can't change how he feels. You can only change you, and be your best self.

 

I hope things work out, however they are meant to.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Thanks for the latest replies. I've avoided coming for a few weeks because I'm not doing well. 

 

Depression. Anxiety. Obsessive addiction to researching and reading about religion. About other's faith journeys and transitions...science vs. faith...quantum physics...cosmology...theories on origins of life...physics of time (theory of relativity, time perception)...materialism...other religions..."progressive" or liberal Christianity...neurological reasons for belief...refutations of new age spirituality...history of the early church...diversity within the church on different traditions and denominations, etc. etc. etc. It's not healthy anymore. I can't focus on anything and it's wearing on my ability to be a good wife and mother. 

 

Part of it is just compulsive and part of it is fascination.

 

I literally can't stop thinking about this conflict between my rational brain and my emotional desire for the good aspects of faith, meaning, community, spirituality, connection, common ground with my husband, friends, family...and the conflicts on how this all will affect my kids, their schooling, etc. etc. etc.

 

Sometimes I try to ignore it and leave it all alone. It works for a few days if I'm really distracted. We've managed to avoid church for a few weeks. But with my husband's job, conversations about how his day goes (ridiculous things the pastor says), my kids soon to go back to school, conversations with friends and relatives, controversial religious debates online and in the news, it's impossible to avoid. 

 

I'm going to start seeing a therapist. 

 

I am not pursuing the reading the Bible with my husband just yet, but I've just sat down with him and vented all of my frustrations, doubts, skepticism. We've had conversations about all kinds of things in the Bible or even the history of Christianity that I can't reconcile in my ahead anymore.  I've also told him that I'm a seeker if there ever was one. I have every reason in the world to believe in a loving God and it would be a million times easier to go back. I understand why people believe and I know it changes people's lives in positive ways. This is not a vendetta against God. But I've told him I hate that he thinks the devil has gotten to me or is even working through me to cause him or my kids to stray. 

 

We've both stressed that staying together is of utmost importance to each of us, so I don't think that's actually a concern now.  It's just a matter of how the hell this is even supposed to work with his job, the kids, etc. 

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I will add that those conversations with my husband are usually just him listening.  I greatly appreciate and love him for that and letting me just talk. I know it's not easy for him. He will usually sometimes still try to persuade me like he did more often in the beginning (the only important thing really being belief in the saving life, death, and resurrection of Jesus, the rest now just gravy to him), but he knows that only makes things worse for me and triggers my anxiety.

 

Obviously he is struggling a lot himself. He goes to work now with this big burden. He feels his job which he loves (and which I agree does a lot of amazing good things in our community) is a threat to our relationship. 

 

So it sucks. 

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In 1 Corinthians ch. 7, the Apostle Paul teaches that if an unbelieving spouse desires to remain married, then the believing spouse should accept the situation for the sake of peace in Christ, and also for the children (which applies in your case).

 

We are both familiar with this chapter and agreeably helpful in this context for my husband. 1 Cor 7:14 is an especially interesting verse.

 

It's interesting to me that this was included to address the earliest churches in which new adherents were subscribing to new teachings when a person's spouse may not have yet taken to this new branch of Judaism. 

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I understand your desire to please everyone, but I'm here to say, you simply can't. 

Thanks. This is similar to what my counselor said to me. 

 

The real challenge is that while a desire to please my husband, family, friends, kids, community is there...it's not JUST that. They are spiritual longings I still have myself...things I value/valued and/or appreciated like having a close community, shared family foundation and values, faith-based traditions, personal "transcendent" or meaningful experiences (based in prayer, meditation, or whatever you want to call the personal side of faith), and some of the other "good" things people associate with their faith or God. (Not that Christianity or religion has a monopoly on such things by any means, but my experience and perspectives obviously reflect my personal heritage.) 

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I gather from your posts that your husband has freedom to run the school as he sees best. Is he the principle? superintendent? Does the church/denomination dictate the curriculum? Is the school funded in large part by the church/denomination? I read you posted that the church is dying (attendance only, or organizationally as well?). Is your congregation part of a larger organization or independent?

 

If your husband would ever consider a different view of things, such as old-earth rather than young-earth, would he have the freedom to change the school curriculum, or would there be too much resistance from parents? Are most of the kids enrolled because the parents hold to a fundamentalist young-earth view?

 

As far as your husband maybe eventually changing his views on that, there are other Christians who subscribe to the more scientific views. You are probably aware of that. Do you think it would help in your conversation with him if you could introduce him to an evangelical Christian web site that promotes more scientific views?

 

I get the impression that you are questioning only some scientific and doctrinal issues, but that you want to maintain your family values and moral values, and much of the same lifestyle, and that you might even consider continuing to attend church but in a different environment. I think if you and your husband can come to an understanding about your feeling free to question and research on your own, you could interact with the other church people minimally, in your current church environment.

 

As I mentioned in my separate post, it seems the first issue to settle is you and your husband coming to an agreement on the boundaries and nature of your marriage. Once that's settled, and you both feel it's an agreeable compromise for staying together, then you could deal with the religious/theological issues one at a time. And it would seem wise to deal with the less essential ones first. The age of the earth seems less crucial than the doctrine of hell, for example. I understand that the doctrine of hell is a big issue for you. But if you could get your husband to gradually work through the secondary issues, eventually you might get him to reconsider some of the primary ones, which would be more theological.

 

 

 

Hi again. So my husband is the principal with a lot of control over curriculum and such, but not enough to change to anything that doesn't include a young-earth creationist worldview. We're still overseen by this small church which is part of a small branch of conservative evangelicalism. 

 

I would like if we could explore some other church options that are more of a compromise in this area and it's something I've been looking into. Unfortunately, we now have a pretty big gap between us. Compromise at this point still means significant concessions on either of our parts. 

 

A lot of people are enrolled because they just don't want to be in the public school. Many have loose Catholic backgrounds (most families don't go to our church - it's one of those outreach mission kind of schools rather than one serving its own members).  That said, most probably are creationist leanings. However, one parent is an atheist who sends their kids because he appreciates the morals and values and views it a better option than the crappy public schools in our area. 

 

I like what you said about covering the secondary issues first.

 

"you want to maintain your family values and moral values, and much of the same lifestyle, and that you might even consider continuing to attend church but in a different environment. I think if you and your husband can come to an understanding about your feeling free to question and research on your own, you could interact with the other church people minimally, in your current church environment."

 

Yes.  

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Murkywater,

 

I am glad you are seeing a therapist. Hopefully it will help you manage your feelings about all of this and make decisions that are in your best interests. I can definitely relate to the obsessive piece. For MONTHS I found myself spending way too much time at work looking up apologetics, watching YouTube debates, and visiting Ex-C. As your beliefs become more comfortable, you will probably find that the obsessions die down significantly.

 

I am glad that you and your husband are on the same page as far as staying together. You'll figure out the rest together, as long as you are both able to have empathy for the other person while also making sure that your own feelings are validated. 

 

Hang in there.

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I gather from your posts that your husband has freedom to run the school as he sees best. Is he the principle? superintendent? Does the church/denomination dictate the curriculum? Is the school funded in large part by the church/denomination? I read you posted that the church is dying (attendance only, or organizationally as well?). Is your congregation part of a larger organization or independent?

 

If your husband would ever consider a different view of things, such as old-earth rather than young-earth, would he have the freedom to change the school curriculum, or would there be too much resistance from parents? Are most of the kids enrolled because the parents hold to a fundamentalist young-earth view?

 

As far as your husband maybe eventually changing his views on that, there are other Christians who subscribe to the more scientific views. You are probably aware of that. Do you think it would help in your conversation with him if you could introduce him to an evangelical Christian web site that promotes more scientific views?

 

I get the impression that you are questioning only some scientific and doctrinal issues, but that you want to maintain your family values and moral values, and much of the same lifestyle, and that you might even consider continuing to attend church but in a different environment. I think if you and your husband can come to an understanding about your feeling free to question and research on your own, you could interact with the other church people minimally, in your current church environment.

 

As I mentioned in my separate post, it seems the first issue to settle is you and your husband coming to an agreement on the boundaries and nature of your marriage. Once that's settled, and you both feel it's an agreeable compromise for staying together, then you could deal with the religious/theological issues one at a time. And it would seem wise to deal with the less essential ones first. The age of the earth seems less crucial than the doctrine of hell, for example. I understand that the doctrine of hell is a big issue for you. But if you could get your husband to gradually work through the secondary issues, eventually you might get him to reconsider some of the primary ones, which would be more theological.

 

 

 

Hi again. So my husband is the principal with a lot of control over curriculum and such, but not enough to change to anything that doesn't include a young-earth creationist worldview. We're still overseen by this small church which is part of a small branch of conservative evangelicalism. 

 

I would like if we could explore some other church options that are more of a compromise in this area and it's something I've been looking into. Unfortunately, we now have a pretty big gap between us. Compromise at this point still means significant concessions on either of our parts. 

 

A lot of people are enrolled because they just don't want to be in the public school. Many have loose Catholic backgrounds (most families don't go to our church - it's one of those outreach mission kind of schools rather than one serving its own members).  That said, most probably are creationist leanings. However, one parent is an atheist who sends their kids because he appreciates the morals and values and views it a better option than the crappy public schools in our area. 

 

I like what you said about covering the secondary issues first.

 

"you want to maintain your family values and moral values, and much of the same lifestyle, and that you might even consider continuing to attend church but in a different environment. I think if you and your husband can come to an understanding about your feeling free to question and research on your own, you could interact with the other church people minimally, in your current church environment."

 

Yes.  

 

So, you're allowing your children to be taught Young Earth Creationism?

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