Cooking With Kids (Yes, We're Going To Go There)

[Roz]

Here's a fun set of verses for the Den.

 

Open your bibles to 2 Kings chapters 6 and 7.

 

6:1-7 talks about how an ax head floated to the top of a river bank through the power of yaweh, yay team bible god!  Isn't he awesome?

8-15 has the king of Syria wanting to capture Elisha

16-23 has Elisha displaying the awesome power of yaweh to his servant, having legions of flaming chariots and angelic horsemen protecting them

Elisha then commands the flaming angels to blind the men sent to capture him, and led them to the king of Israel for capture.  Yay team jesus!

 

Now comes the fun part!

24 And it came to pass after this, that Benhadad king of Syria gathered all his host, and went up, and besieged Samaria.

25 And there was a great famine in Samaria: and, behold, they besieged it, until an ass's head was sold for fourscore pieces of silver, and the fourth part of a cab of dove's dung for five pieces of silver.

---remember how in the earlier verses yeshitwa just blinds the attackers?  Good, keep that in mind.

 

26 And as the king of Israel was passing by upon the wall, there cried a woman unto him, saying, Help, my lord, O king.

27 And he said, If the Lord do not help thee, whence shall I help thee? out of the barnfloor, or out of the winepress?

---keep those red letters in the back of your mind

 

28 And the king said unto her, What aileth thee? And she answered, This woman said unto me, Give thy son, that we may eat him to day, and we will eat my son to morrow.

---oh come on, be honest.  You knew this was coming right?

 

29 So we boiled my son, and did eat him: and I said unto her on the next day, Give thy son, that we may eat him: and she hath hid her son.

30 And it came to pass, when the king heard the words of the woman, that he rent his clothes; and he passed by upon the wall, and the people looked, and, behold, he had sackcloth within upon his flesh.

---Sooooo let's recap.  Yeshitwa apparently had the power to blind the attacking forces sent to a city to capture Elisha, but in the next few verses allowed another city to be besieged to the point of hunger?

---Mind you, this is extreme hunger.  This woman was desperate enough to cook her own son in order for her and the other woman to live.

 

No, I fault yaweh.  Keep reading the whole of chapter 7.  

He apparently used his power AGAIN to wipe out the attacking forces.  Little late on that, seeing as your people were starving to the point of having to make really nerve wrecking choices.  Go team jesus?  Nah, I'll pass.

[Aries256]

open my what?

 

man, that's gross. funny how the christards scream about save the children, supporting a myth that harms more children than anything else. Not to mention the child raping priests, and pastors.

[Roz]

You know how the christians like to accuse atheists of eating children?

 

Yeah... shut it christians.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

Um, Roz, I don't know if they explained this to you in your "Intro to Atheism" class, but, as an ex-christian, you are expected to sacrifice babies and to eat them after the ceremony.  So, by starting this thread, you are kind of exposing us all, don't you think?  Just sayin'.

[Roz]

Point noted, I do love eating babies.  That's why BaByQ sauce was invented after all.

 

If we stipulate that those 2 women were in fact ancient atheists, then bible god still allowed them to eat that child, because the very next day he used his god powers to wipe out the besieging force.

[moanareina]

That's a story...now, either the king is a complete fool because this woman told him a complete lie or more likely this story is another example of how it is all made up. I mean, I just can't imagine any woman cooking her son to eat him. Especially not if someone suggests it to her by telling her to cook her own son the next day. Even if there was a severe famine...I think a mother would rather kill another person that is unrelated to her then cooking her own son. Except if she was mentally ill. So this just screams: Fiction!!!

[Leo]

And no Christians have yet responded.

I notice of late that they don't seem to.

I'm not real fond of the echo chamber effect when we're actually debating issues (outside Extimonies and Ex-Christian life, sex, etc.) places like here and the Colloseum. But I think they're refusing to engage us.

I've read over the weekend on this site, it's apparent there were more of them back in 2005, even up to 2008 or so, but now we see not a whole lot of reaction from them.

Faith is no strong tower. The righteous run into it, to defend it, lest it fall down.

[◊ crazyguy123 ◊]

And no Christians have yet responded.

I notice of late that they don't seem to.

I'm not real fond of the echo chamber effect when we're actually debating issues (outside Extimonies and Ex-Christian life, sex, etc.) places like here and the Colloseum. But I think they're refusing to engage us.

I've read over the weekend on this site, it's apparent there were more of them back in 2005, even up to 2008 or so, but now we see not a whole lot of reaction from them.

Faith is no strong tower. The righteous run into it, to defend it, lest it fall down.

 

I don't think that "righteous" is the word I'd use to describe many of the believers that come here. I won't mention any names, but the ones that come here to talk down to us or to preach to us, only to dodge and/or ignore the questions we ask of them, show how dishonest they are and how pathetic their attempts to defend their faith are.

 

As long as that dark, spooky, and intimidating tower they call faith is still around, the theists in leadership positions can control whoever they want with it. Nowadays, that tower is crumbling in multiple places and is becoming an eyesore, so the Christians are desperate to prevent their faith from collapsing, because without it, they feel their lives will be meaningless.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

And no Christians have yet responded.

I notice of late that they don't seem to.

I'm not real fond of the echo chamber effect when we're actually debating issues (outside Extimonies and Ex-Christian life, sex, etc.) places like here and the Colloseum. But I think they're refusing to engage us.

I've read over the weekend on this site, it's apparent there were more of them back in 2005, even up to 2008 or so, but now we see not a whole lot of reaction from them.

Faith is no strong tower. The righteous run into it, to defend it, lest it fall down.

It's pathetic that an omnipotent god can't provide us with better christians--jehovah jireh, indeed.  I had hoped that that Gus character would prove to be a worthy adversary; but it would appear that he's pulled ghost on us.  Funguyrye was entertaining for a while, but he, too, eventually turned tail.  I wonder if we ask in jesus' name for some really challenging apologists, would he give us some? 

[Roz]

Maybe it's not the christians, but the message of christianity that doesn't hold water... 

 

What's that yaweh?  I'm not   yet.  You need to learn how to smite like a real god.

[mymistake]

 

And no Christians have yet responded.

I notice of late that they don't seem to.

I'm not real fond of the echo chamber effect when we're actually debating issues (outside Extimonies and Ex-Christian life, sex, etc.) places like here and the Colloseum. But I think they're refusing to engage us.

I've read over the weekend on this site, it's apparent there were more of them back in 2005, even up to 2008 or so, but now we see not a whole lot of reaction from them.

Faith is no strong tower. The righteous run into it, to defend it, lest it fall down.

It's pathetic that an omnipotent god can't provide us with better christians--jehovah jireh, indeed.  I had hoped that that Gus character would prove to be a worthy adversary; but it would appear that he's pulled ghost on us.  Funguyrye was entertaining for a while, but he, too, eventually turned tail.  I wonder if we ask in jesus' name for some really challenging apologists, would he give us some? 

 

 

 

I think it would be more fun to pray to Satan to send us more Christians.  That way when they come it will be an answer to our prayers.

[ironhorse]

And no Christians have yet responded.

I notice of late that they don't seem to.

I'm not real fond of the echo chamber effect when we're actually debating issues (outside Extimonies and Ex-Christian life, sex, etc.) places like here and the Colloseum. But I think they're refusing to engage us.

I've read over the weekend on this site, it's apparent there were more of them back in 2005, even up to 2008 or so, but now we see not a whole lot of reaction from them.

Faith is no strong tower. The righteous run into it, to defend it, lest it fall down.

 

I'm responding.

 

If the Bible is purely fiction, it's odd that the writers would include these horrific stories.

Also strange, that these passages were not edited or deleted in future copies centuries later.

 

Again, I do not buy the argument that because God allows evil to happen He approves of it.

[◊ crazyguy123 ◊]

 

And no Christians have yet responded.

I notice of late that they don't seem to.

I'm not real fond of the echo chamber effect when we're actually debating issues (outside Extimonies and Ex-Christian life, sex, etc.) places like here and the Colloseum. But I think they're refusing to engage us.

I've read over the weekend on this site, it's apparent there were more of them back in 2005, even up to 2008 or so, but now we see not a whole lot of reaction from them.

Faith is no strong tower. The righteous run into it, to defend it, lest it fall down.

 

I'm responding.

 

If the Bible is purely fiction, it's odd that the writers would include these horrific stories.

Also strange, that these passages were not edited or deleted in future copies centuries later.

 

Again, I do not buy the argument that because God allows evil to happen He approves of it.

 

 

Don't forget, he also invented evil.

[mymistake]

If Star Wars is pure fiction then it's odd that the writers would include the complete destruction of Alderaan.  What a horrific story!

Also strange, that such a great loss of life was not edited or deleted in film's special editions Lucas released later.

 

I don't buy the arguments that because Darth Vader allows evil to happen he approves of it.

[midniterider]

People write horrific fiction stories and even sell them.

[midniterider]

 

 

And no Christians have yet responded.

I notice of late that they don't seem to.

I'm not real fond of the echo chamber effect when we're actually debating issues (outside Extimonies and Ex-Christian life, sex, etc.) places like here and the Colloseum. But I think they're refusing to engage us.

I've read over the weekend on this site, it's apparent there were more of them back in 2005, even up to 2008 or so, but now we see not a whole lot of reaction from them.

Faith is no strong tower. The righteous run into it, to defend it, lest it fall down.

I'm responding.

 

If the Bible is purely fiction, it's odd that the writers would include these horrific stories.

Also strange, that these passages were not edited or deleted in future copies centuries later.

 

Again, I do not buy the argument that because God allows evil to happen He approves of it.

So what does allow mean?

And what does approve mean?

 

God looks down on earth and says, "I sure don't approve of that but I'll allow it even though I could prevent it"

[midniterider]

If the Bible was purely fiction ... applying logic now .... it could contain anything the writer wrote.

[midniterider]

I find it strange that the Vedas , Greek mythology, Norse myths and Egyptian myths have not been edited or revised since they were written thousands of years ago. Must mean they are true accounts, eh?

[TheRedneckProfessor]

I'm responding.

 

If the Bible is purely fiction, it's odd that the writers would include these horrific stories.

Also strange, that these passages were not edited or deleted in future copies centuries later.

 

Again, I do not buy the argument that because God allows evil to happen He approves of it.

 

Atrocities happened under Hitler's regime.  Now from the biographies I've read, Hitler wasn't an "evil" man in person.  But no one can deny that he did, however, set up a cultural environment in which genocide, rape, torture, and slaughter of innocents could be conducted with extreme efficiency... Just like yahweh did.

 

Do we blame Hitler for those atrocities?  Yes, even though he didn't commit a single one of them personally.  We blame him because he was in charge.  It was ultimately his responsibility.

 

Should we not also blame god?

[bornagainathiest]

 

And no Christians have yet responded.

I notice of late that they don't seem to.

I'm not real fond of the echo chamber effect when we're actually debating issues (outside Extimonies and Ex-Christian life, sex, etc.) places like here and the Colloseum. But I think they're refusing to engage us.

I've read over the weekend on this site, it's apparent there were more of them back in 2005, even up to 2008 or so, but now we see not a whole lot of reaction from them.

Faith is no strong tower. The righteous run into it, to defend it, lest it fall down.

 

I'm responding.

 

If the Bible is purely fiction, it's odd that the writers would include these horrific stories.

Also strange, that these passages were not edited or deleted in future copies centuries later.

 

Again, I do not buy the argument that because God allows evil to happen He approves of it.

 

 

So that's six (6) separate responses of agreement from you, Ironhorse.

 

http://www.ex-christian.net/topic/62720-no-shit-sherlock/page-24#.U7WfnfldVzM 

 

# 465

[Leo]

 

And no Christians have yet responded.

I notice of late that they don't seem to.

I'm not real fond of the echo chamber effect when we're actually debating issues (outside Extimonies and Ex-Christian life, sex, etc.) places like here and the Colloseum. But I think they're refusing to engage us.

I've read over the weekend on this site, it's apparent there were more of them back in 2005, even up to 2008 or so, but now we see not a whole lot of reaction from them.

Faith is no strong tower. The righteous run into it, to defend it, lest it fall down.

 

I'm responding.

 

If the Bible is purely fiction, it's odd that the writers would include these horrific stories.

Also strange, that these passages were not edited or deleted in future copies centuries later.

 

Again, I do not buy the argument that because God allows evil to happen He approves of it.

 

In charge and powerful equals responsible.

Happens all the time, the investigations into who is responsible for what act. Instructive for you may be to read up on how the U.S. Coast Guard does investigations into marine deaths. Investigation doesn't go only as high as the captain of the ship. Nope, all the way up through the ship's owning company, the corporate culture and training practices.

We humans get it. We hold the highest power possible responsible for the cultural environment they create, the tools they provide or don't provide, the treatment of subordinates.

If an investigation were taken, and Yahweh wishes to take credit for having made everything and set up the entire environment, it logically follows that Yahweh is responsible, ultimately, for what goes on.

The Christian lopsided argument that Yahweh gets all the credit and humans all the punishment has absolutely no logical basis or precedent in reality.

Isaiah 45:6-7

 "That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there

is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the

LORD do all these things."

 

Or we could say it like this:

Isaiah 45:6-7

"That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there

is nobody else as responsible what what goes on as I am. I am the LORD, and there is none else.

After all:

• I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the

LORD do all these things. Since I do all these things, I am responsible for their outcomes."

Let me tell you something.

We are right now creating artificially intelligent machines. Some are in the military. Some are used on the stock market. In a few decades, you'll have one in your house. If that machine screws up, who do you suppose is held responsible?

When a drone strikes an innocent target, who is responsible? Do we hold the software onboard responsible?

Ah, but you may respond, we don't yet have sentient artificially intelligent life so your argument doesn't matter. Sentience is a matter of degree. Certainly machines do not feel as do animals do. But they have two things that matter to Christianity: Knowledge and, at least for automated systems that can make decisions, agency.

Many many systems are automated all over the planet. Any automation system worth its salt, be it credit card processing, missile guidance, or stock market risk analysis software, is totally worthless today unless it can make decisions in context of its environment.

It's the responsibility of the designers / developers to create it and the environment to match so it can be productive.

Now show me one instance when one of these systems fails, where we don't hold its designer responsible? Or at minimum its controller?

Even with controllers, human operators tasked to intervene, we STILL hold the designers more responsible, because the design should account for controller error.

Xianity and all other religions of its type are shown to be completely backwards, now that we have created machines with both knowledge and limited agency.

That's just going to accelerate as we take the types of leaps that are predicted in the next few decades.

In the world of artificial intelligence, there is no agency without knowledge. In other words, there is no Garden of Eden / innocence / fre will  / talking phallus experiment. Logically impossible. No sensible scientist would create a robot and allow it to make dangerous choices for all its progeny and programs, after deliberately limiting its knowledge to do so correctly. And any one who did? Would be held responsible.

 

- I may be a software developer, but none of my programs have ever sung my praises. In the day they do, anyone walking by will think I'm just a little bit weird.

[ironhorse]

I read your reply LeoBirdMan. In fact I read it several times.

You make your point well, but I disagree with your conclusion.

 

 

“God did not create evil. Just as darkness is the absence of light, evil is the absence of God.”

~Albert Einstein

[mymistake]

I read your reply LeoBirdMan. In fact I read it several times.

You make your point well, but I disagree with your conclusion.

 

 

What would it take to change your mind?

[sdelsolray]

I read your reply LeoBirdMan. In fact I read it several times.

You make your point well, but I disagree with your conclusion.

 

 

“God did not create evil. Just as darkness is the absence of light, evil is the absence of God.”

~Albert Einstein

Einstein never said this.  You have been shown this.  Yet you repeat it.

 

You are misrepresenting Einstein.  You are duplicitous, disingenuous and dishonest.  In my book, this makes you a liar.

[◊ crazyguy123 ◊]

“God did not create evil. Just as darkness is the absence of light, evil is the absence of God.”

~Albert Einstein

 

This statement you quoted is just some nonsense a human (not Albert Einstein) came up with to make it appear that the god of the Bible bears no responsibility for the existence of evil. For a person to claim such a thing, they must begin with the assumption that the god of the Bible is nothing but good, all the time.

 

If, for the sake of argument, that claim really is true, then is behaving like a hypocrite a good quality? Is narcissism a good quality? Is commanding the deaths of innocents good? Is allowing humans to be treated as property good? Are these deeds and personality traits only bad if humans have/do them, but good for the god of the Bible to have/do them?